Obsidian's Pillars of Eternity [BETA RELEASED, GO TO THE NEW THREAD]

[Hormalakh]

Also I think that you're giving too much credit to publishers when it comes to "risk management" and "professionalism." Don't forget that many of these publishers fail themselves. THQ is one recent example.

 

[Captain Shrek]

Infinitron

I paid $1.

Does this make me a Jew?

 

[Mrowak]

No! It's you who is underinformed. Those companies work on tight budgets and each penny is documented - where it comes from, how it is going to be spent, and what are actual benefits of its investement for the larger scale of things (yes, even estimating $$$ brought by Auction House and Horse Armour DLC).

What does that have to do with anything? Look at the average development time for a typical Beth or Blizzard title and tell me they don't get more time (and therefore money) than anybody else.

FFS, Blizzard are notorious for this.

Sure, but reputation merits reward. If Obsidian did well it owuld get as much leaway. But that's beside the point. It's hypothesizing :if Obsidian got the money and time they would make the bestest game on Earth. We cannot know that, but judging from their past works, there are little grounds for that.

That's what differentiates them from underdogs.

Brian Fargo can tell you what differentiates them: http://www.gamesindustry.biz/articl...thout-corporate-interruption-were-kicking-ass

"The best creative work we're seeing is from creative people who have the power, or the financing, to control their destinies... They can keep the craziness at bay"

I think that after 5 projects by Obsidian we can start pointing at common denominators ignoring "too many variables" that are irrelevant to the issue at hand.

Life is never as simple as "one single cause".[/quote]

Never say never. All too often root of the problems is the same. Remove the root and most problems will disappear.

Ironically, in spite of what you are stating Obisdian's fanboys keep calling same names: "they didn't have time and money". It's exactly what you did in your previous post. You want to know how to save time and money: managing your projects well. Ok, I would be willing to believe Obsidian couldn't realistically do what their producer told them (although it was them who negotiated contracts, right?) for the money/time they were given and they couldn't work around it even with the bestest preparations... once or twice. Five times in a row is calling it. And fucking around in that Kickstarter campaign was an eye-opener for me. My trust is at its limits and only amassed years of experience of each individual developer/designer in the team hold it in one piece.

You'd better deliver Obsidian. Because this time there will be no excuses.

 

[Infinitron]

Five times in a row is calling it.

Five times in a row of what? You're acting as if each of Obsidian's games was flawed in the same way, but the truth is that they each had their own distinct set of issues.

There's no glaring common denominator here, no "root". (unlike Bioware and Bethesda games btw, which keep on being flawed in basically the same ways)

 

[Tigranes]

I base my "assertions" on what I saw - subpar games with a spark ingenious thought. I think that after 5 projects by Obsidian we can start pointing at common denominators ignoring "too many variables" that are irrelevant to the issue at hand.

Only skimmed the last two pages really fast, but: yes, I think it's very reasonable to judge Obsidian by the commonality of their 5 projects. And the most important commonality is that they all (except DS3) were ingenious and memorable in some way, and I enjoyed them. (Edit: And, as Infinitron says, 5 projects' commonality was also they were not polished enough or slam dunky enough, but the specifics always differed.)

I would like to see them produce more polished stuff, though I won't pretend to know what are the causes, and at least the bugginess seems gone in Onyx (we'll see with South Park), but hell, even if they remain at this level, I'll be more than happy. If PB were churning out Gothics 4, 5, 6 with similar quality and similar problems we might all be complaining, but we know now it's hell of a lot better than the current situation.

 

[Hormalakh]

Look Obsidian would be in a much better place right now if it had all the IPs that it owned under Black Isle. These game companies like Blizzard are where they are because of their successes in the era before multi-million dollar publisher slaveowning. Blizzard does well now because of Diablo and Starcraft (which it sold millions of copies of in the 90's.) If Obsidian had that kind of freedom, they wouldn't be the black sheep that they are now.

 

[Mrowak]

Five times in a row is calling it.

Five times in a row of what? You're acting as if each of Obsidian's games was flawed in the same way, but the truth is that they each had their own distinct set of issues.

There's no glaring common denominator here, no "root". (unlike Bioware and Bethesda games btw, which keep on being flawed in basically the same ways)

One general aspect of development that can influence the quality of the product in a number of ways, including bugginess, unfinished content, UI design, gameplay issues and one that is tied to time and money? (Mis)Management? It's a score!!

Edit: In all fairness, if they had not exhibit exactly that in the Kickstarter pitch in my fanboyish dedication I would not have point the finger at that myself.

 

[Infinitron]

Just look at the graphics damn it.

The fans who funded him have repeatedly asked for prioritizing gameplay over graphics.

It's possible that they don't realize the full consequences of this request. We'll see what happens when the game is released.

One general aspect of development that can influence the quality of the product in a number of ways, including bugginess, unfinished content, UI design, gameplay issues and one that is tied to time and money? (Mis)Management? It's a score!!

You keep waving the word "mismanagement" around like a voodoo doll or magic wand.
Hmm...MBA zombie detected.

 

[Hormalakh]

In Obsidian's case, the fact that they continue to update the fans on a weekly basis really does play a big factor in trusting them. They did the same thing during the kickstarter. These guys have put their reputations on the line. It's not a matter of money, really. These guys are known by name now. Josh Sawyer, MCA, Urquhart, Brennecke. If they don't deliver, people will no longer trust them as people, not just a company.

Fargo's case, I bet would be similar.

 

[Captain Shrek]

Just look at the graphics damn it.

The fans who funded him have asked for "gameplay over graphics".

It's possible that they don't realize the full consequences of this request. We'll see what happens when the game is released.

The fans are idiots. Why not ask for both????

 

[Hormalakh]

The fans are idiots. Why not ask for both????

Because the budget is limited.

 

[tuluse]

Just look at the graphics damn it. They look dated and old from a LOT of indie games being made with LESS money. How is this okay?

Because it's what we asked for.

The fans are idiots. Why not ask for both????

Do you understand the concept of limited resources? Time and money spent on aspect means less spent on another aspect.

I'm pretty sure Fargo is making exactly what he promised and what the fans asked for. Sorry it doesn't line up with your tastes.

 

[Captain Shrek]

The fans are idiots. Why not ask for both????

Because the budget is limited.

Good implementation (opposed to deep) does not require so much budget, but rather just brains.

 

[Infinitron]

Just look at the graphics damn it.

The fans who funded him have asked for "gameplay over graphics".

It's possible that they don't realize the full consequences of this request. We'll see what happens when the game is released.

The fans are idiots. Why not ask for both????

Because it's a common belief among "hardcore oldschool gamers" that the main reason games today suck is because there's too much focus on shiny graphics.

There is very much an animus against good graphics, not always entirely rational, among this community.

 

[Captain Shrek]

Just look at the graphics damn it.

The fans who funded him have asked for "gameplay over graphics".

It's possible that they don't realize the full consequences of this request. We'll see what happens when the game is released.

The fans are idiots. Why not ask for both????

Because it's a common belief among "hardcore oldschool gamers" that the main reason games today suck is because there's too much focus on shiny graphics.

There is very much a reaction against good graphics, not always entirely rational, among this community.

Hmph.

This is an unbelievable excuse assuming that Fargo knows this is wrong.

 

[tuluse]

Just look at the graphics damn it.

The fans who funded him have asked for "gameplay over graphics".

It's possible that they don't realize the full consequences of this request. We'll see what happens when the game is released.

The fans are idiots. Why not ask for both????

Because it's a common belief among "hardcore oldschool gamers" that the main reason games today suck is because there's too much focus on shiny graphics.

There is very much an animus against good graphics, not always entirely rational, among this community.

Tim Cain: "we can't have attacks from prone because it would cost too much from the animation budget"

 

[Mrowak]

Just look at the graphics damn it.

The fans who funded him have repeatedly asked for prioritizing gameplay over graphics.

It's possible that they don't realize the full consequences of this request. We'll see what happens when the game is released.

One general aspect of development that can influence the quality of the product in a number of ways, including bugginess, unfinished content, UI design, gameplay issues and one that is tied to time and money? (Mis)Management? It's a score!!

You keep waving the word "mismanagement" around like a voodoo doll or magic wand.
Hmm...MBA zombie detected.

No I base my logic on what I saw *in their games* and *in their campaign*. It's you who just refuses to analyze "too many variables" and draw any conclusions, handwaving everything with a strawman. But keep waving the voodoo doll of yours, please.

 

[Infinitron]

Captain Shrek

Well, Wasteland 2's graphics will obviously be better than what we're seeing now, in the end.

Don't know how much better.

 

[Captain Shrek]

Captain Shrek

Well, Wasteland 2's graphics will obviously be better than what we're seeing now, in the end.

Don't know how much better.

Dude. Did you play the beta for Eisenwald?

 

[Infinitron]

No.

Wasteland 2 isn't a beta yet.

 

[Captain Shrek]

Tim Cain: "we can't have attacks from prone because it would cost too much from the animation budget"

THis is which game pray?

 

[Infinitron]

Maybe they will, maybe they won't.

I won't give a fuck.

 

[tuluse]

Tim Cain: "we can't have attacks from prone because it would cost too much from the animation budget"

THis is which game pray?

Project Eternity, one of the updates during the kickstarter.

 

[Hormalakh]

Good implementation (opposed to deep) does not require so much budget, but rather just brains.

Brains cost money. It is called a salary that has to be paid to keep this brain fed, clothed, and sheltered. This brain has costs. Brain doesn't come free.

 

[Infinitron]

Graphics whoredex. Graphics whoredex never changes.