Obsidian's Pillars of Eternity [BETA RELEASED, GO TO THE NEW THREAD]

[Zetor]

it's Hungarian. One of the hardest-to-learn languages that also happens to be spectacularly useless.

Bullshit. I use it every day.

So do I. Doesn't make it any less useless compared to... almost every other language out there. How many foreigners would rather learn Hungarian compared to (insert any other European language here)?

edit: also -- sarcasm! On the internet!

 

[ZagorTeNej]

There is a compromise between these two extremes.

And Josh is gonna be the one to do it!

He'll also balance all classes (without them having too much overlap and near identical abilities merely named differently) and provide much better encounter design than BG2 (especially do away with those "boring" mage duels which according to Josh all had just one correct solution) even though none of the games he ever worked on were even in the same ballpark in that regard.

I guess all that BG2 name dropping during kickstarted campaign was solely to get more monies flowing in and it was meant to be Josh's personal little experiment from the very beginning.

Honestly, I like to listen to Josh ramble about game mechanics, he's one of the very few developers who go into so much detail regarding that topic when interviewed but the guy is pretentious as fuck.

 

[ZagorTeNej]

Sorry, double post.

 

[felipepepe]

I don't see why Josh should hold his tongue regarding criticism considering this forum is full of non- and wannabe-game designers who don't hold theirs.

He can say what he wants, but he must know he will be judged by his own words; and bashing everything while failing to deliver his own just make him look stupid. Resident madman Cleve bashes games like mad, but the little we saw of Grimoire easily proves that the guy has talent and will deliver something to back his words... how about Josh?

How many games have the guy made anyway? How many chances he need to make what he "trully" wants? Are his attempts only valid when he has 4 million dollars from kickstarter and no publisher "to ruin everything"? Because that's a heavenly oportunity that most people in the industry would die for, yet many out there, even struggling for money and against evil publishers managed to deliver great classics that Josh piss on like he's above that.

 

[SCO]

Looting crap is the spawn of the devil. FucK DIaBLO FOREVER

 

[Sensuki]

If you're some kind of grognard. MOBAs are terrible, but if one must play one, better to go with LoL over DotA which is a big pile of amateur fail with a terribly high skill floor. (high skill ceiling with low skill floors>needlessly high skill floors)

I have been playing DotA since 2004, DotA Allstars 5.54b and no it is not a terrible game, it is one of if not the most competitive games there are. I thought games that actually required skill were cherished around here

I am not a fan of the F2P model by any means, but at least in DotA 2 when you start playing you get access to everything, and not just 3 heroes like in LoL where you either pay to win, or have to play 3603636 hours just to get access to everything.

/GD.

 

[imweasel]

Baldur's Gate city (not the game) had about the optimal quest density for me. It wasn't as empty as BG1 wilderness areas with their static "2 minor quest/area" design, but it wasn't as artificially packed with stuff to do as Athkatla was.

Although even Athkatla was a quest wasteland when compared to Sigil, but PST quests were so unique, interesting and fit so naturally to the world that I did not mind, and kept coming back for more.

I personally prefered Athkatla (city in BG2) because there was more to do than Baldur's Gate (city in BG1). Baldur's Gate city was big and beautiful like Athkatla, but it felt somewhat empty to me. But that is just my personal opinion, both of them are fantastic games nevertheless.

 

[Infinitron]

How many games have the guy made anyway?

Two, basically.

How many chances he need to make what he "trully" wants?

How many chances has he had? Sawyer's young - he's still in his 30s. He hasn't had his big break yet.

 

[Cosmo]

All i know is that his FNV mod changed the game's system into something very solid and coherent.

 

[Rake]

I don't see why Josh should hold his tongue regarding criticism considering this forum is full of non- and wannabe-game designers who don't hold theirs.

He can say what he wants, but he must know he will be judged by his own words; and bashing everything while failing to deliver his own just make him look stupid. Resident madman Cleve bashes games like mad, but the little we saw of Grimoire easily proves that the guy has talent and will deliver something to back his words... how about Josh?

How many games have the guy made anyway? How many chances he need to make what he "trully" wants? Are his attempts only valid when he has 4 million dollars from kickstarter and no publisher "to ruin everything"? Because that's a heavenly oportunity that most people in the industry would die for, yet many out there, even struggling for money and against evil publishers managed to deliver great classics that Josh piss on like he's above that.

Well, we'll see in P:E. This game is Josh chance to make the system he wants and we can judge him on that. If he delivers a classic we all win. But i don't know if what Josh considers good is the same with what IE audience consider good. Whatever he says, content density and the mage duels are things all IE fans loved, and like it or not BG2 is the most beloved and succesfull of IE games. That he didn't liked it doesn't mean anything, but to believe that the better liked parts of the game were in fact bad is... troubling. If he can't recognize what BG fans liked, how can he offer them the same excperience?

 

[MicoSelva]

All that Josh Sawyer discussion is getting ridiculous. He's still making the game and we can't do anything about it. Why don't we resort to judging the result when they appear, instead of this speculation masturbation shit?

 

[felipepepe]

How many chances he need to make what he "trully" wants?

How many chances has he had? Sawyer's young - he's still in his 30s. He hasn't had his big break yet.

Yet the guy is at the helm of a 4M kickstarter project, with Tim Cain as underling and criticizing every game out there... P:E better be DAMN GOOD after all this, god knows what more "proved" bros like Swen would do if they had that kind of chance...

Well, we'll see in P:E. This game is Josh chance to make the system he wants and we can judge him on that. If he delivers a classic we all win. But i don't know if what Josh considers good is the same with what IE audience consider good. Whatever he says, content density and the mage duels are things all IE fans loved, and like it or not BG2 is the most beloved and succesfull of IE games. That he didn't liked it doesn't mean anything, but to believe that the better liked parts of the game were in fact bad is... troubling. If he can't recognize what BG fans liked, how can he offer them the same excperience?

I don't think he's worried about pleasing the IE crowd, and he's definetly right in doing so. However, I doubt that he has what it needs to make all his wonderfull theories become a good and fun game. Smells to me like he's making a game that has a "right way to play", and everyone that has a different approach to his will get really frustrated...

 

[imweasel]

Josh is a damn arrogant guy for someone yet to do something decent... all his games so far were "meh", classical Obsidian "we would do something great but then X happened", and yet he freely stabs classics like he's at higher ground and is perfecting the genre...

That's the main problem most here have with Josh. He hasn't made anything half as good as BG2, D&D etc. but he talks as if he can pull something better out of his ass. His tone rubs people the wrong way even when some of his criticisms are valid.

Well, that's Sawyer for you. Even in politics. Most American's allegedly don't share his political views according to him, so they are all fucktards.

source: http://www.youtube.com/user/fancytyme

 

[Infinitron]

Well, that's Sawyer for you. Even in politics. Most American's allegedly don't share his political views according to him, so they are all fucktards.

source: http://www.youtube.com/user/fancytyme

Seems accurate to me.

Yet the guy is at the helm of a 4M kickstarter project, with Tim Cain as underling and criticizing every game out there... P:E better be DAMN GOOD after all this, god knows what more "proved" bros like Swen would do if they had that kind of chance...

I'm not sure all people would agree that Divine Divinity is more "proof" than Fallout New Vegas.

Smells to me like he's making a game that has a "right way to play", and everyone that has a different approach to his will get really frustrated...

Uh that's actually precisely the design approach that Sawyer hates.

 

[Cynic]

Well, that's Sawyer for you. Even in politics. Most American's allegedly don't share his political views according to him, so they are all fucktards.

source: http://www.youtube.com/user/fancytyme

He's right about that shit though.

 

[Duraframe300]

Uh that's actually precisely the design approach that Sawyer hates.

Not to mention, the best argument you can make for Sawyer to change a decision is supporting another playstyle (like with the miss mechanic)

IMO, Sawyer is more of a codexer than most people here think and quite possibly more than all of his Obsidian brethren. Also, Rougey, while taking arguments out of facts, is fully aware how much hate her comments gather on the codex and is using said comments effectivly to play everyone like a flute.

 

[Lancehead]

How many chances he need to make what he "trully" wants?

How many chances has he had? Sawyer's young - he's still in his 30s. He hasn't had his big break yet.

Yet the guy is at the helm of a 4M kickstarter project, with Tim Cain as underling and criticizing every game out there... P:E better be DAMN GOOD after all this, god knows what more "proved" bros like Swen would do if they had that kind of chance...

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I'd have thought that Divinity Original Sin has had more resources put into it than $ 4 m, that they have had plenty of creative freedom (if Swen's words about how they're making the game they've always wanted are to be believed), and that they never "proved" they can make a good turn-based game.

I agree with you that Sawyer hasn't actually designed a great system so far, but shitting on him because he puts his thoughts out there for others to read is ridiculous. Also, he's never going to be a good designer if he lacks the critical thinking capacity to find what worked and what didn't in other systems. Disagreement over what he considers strengths and weaknesses doesn't make him arrogant.

 

[LeStryfe79]

I like Sawyer. He's fun to troll, but I believe he'll knock Project Eternity out of the park. It's his Grimiore, and if he fails he'll end up a broken man. Hell, if he fails he'll probably end up a meme poster on the Codex like those who shall remain nameless.

All in all, I give him a 60/40 chance of getting the job done.

 

[Blaine]

IMO, Sawyer is more of a codexer than most people here think and quite possibly more than all of his Obsidian brethren. Also, Rougey, while taking arguments out of facts, is fully aware how much hate her comments gather on the codex and is using said comments effectivly to play everyone like a flute.

It's not terribly difficult to troll the Codex, and doing so in the same way for months on end paints someone as more of a pathetic imbecile than a clever puppetmaster.

A great deal of what Roguey posts are zher actual opinions, though, which is why people allow themselves to be "trolled"—it's unbelievably retarded.

 

[felipepepe]

Smells to me like he's making a game that has a "right way to play", and everyone that has a different approach to his will get really frustrated...

Uh that's actually precisely the design approach that Sawyer hates.

Which doesn't mean he won't fall into the trap of making the same mistake, but with a different "right way"... the guy thinks that BG2 mage fights are bad, when most agree that they are some of the best around, I don't doubt he'll just flip the whell instead of re-inventing it like he makes it sound...

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I'd have thought that Divinity Original Sin has had more resources put into it than $ 4 m, that they have had plenty of creative freedom (if Swen's words about how they're making the game they've always wanted are to be believed), and that they never "proved" they can make a good turn-based game.

Both Obsidian and Larian are stabilished companies with their own funds, we have no idea how much each of them is investing from the inside, but from the outside Obisidan got 8x more money without any strings attached...

I agree with you that Sawyer hasn't actually designed a great system so far, but shitting on him because he puts his thoughts out there for others to read is ridiculous. Also, he's never going to be a good designer if he lacks the critical thinking capacity to find what worked and what didn't in other systems. Disagreement over what he considers strengths and weaknesses doesn't make him arrogant.

It's all about the tone bro... Tim Cain is a proved designer and you don't see him shitting all over other games. Lord British is/was probably the most amazing designer out there, the guy basically invented the genre, and even him sounds arrogant when he says "Most Game Designers Really Just Suck"... Josh going along the same lines is just ridiculous.

 

[FeelTheRads]

I don't doubt he'll just flip the whell instead of re-inventing it like he makes it sound...

Actually he sounds like he'll just flip the wheel, but he's trying hard to make it sound like he's reinventing it.

 

[Infinitron]

Which doesn't mean he won't fall into the trap of making the same mistake, but with a different "right way"... the guy thinks that BG2 mage fights are bad, when most agree that they are some of the best around, I don't doubt he'll just flip the whell instead of re-inventing it like he makes it sound...

What he doesn't like about them is that there's very few "correct" ways to solve them. Or in other words, a "right way to play".

I get what you're trying to say here but it's not about there being a "right way to play".

 

[felipepepe]

I beg to differ... stuff like splitting combat & non-combat skill points apart smells bad for me. Instead of making a game where you can get stuck to resorting always to violence due lack of skills, he may be making a game where where you can't just always resort to violence because even your party of 6 barbarians with 3 INT have a full array of non-combat skills and he wants you to "explore all that freedom"... Put it simply, let's say he's not enforcing a "right way", but forbidding me to play the "wrong way"...

 

[Infinitron]

I beg to differ... stuff like splitting combat & non-combat skill points apart smells bad for me.

It smells like D&D. Your 3 INT Barbarian in NWN2 can pump his Diplomacy skill and pass all Diplomacy checks (although not as well as other classes since it's a cross-class skill for Barbarians, and it's likely that PE will have something similar) at little to no cost to his combat efficacy.

This is an Infinity Engine successor, not a Fallout successor.

Put it simply, let's say he's not enforcing a "right way", but forbidding me to play the "wrong way"...

I don't get it. You don't HAVE to use those non-combat skills.

 

[Brotherman Bill]

I don't see why Josh should hold his tongue regarding criticism considering this forum is full of non- and wannabe-game designers who don't hold theirs.

He can say what he wants, but he must know he will be judged by his own words; and bashing everything while failing to deliver his own just make him look stupid. Resident madman Cleve bashes games like mad, but the little we saw of Grimoire easily proves that the guy has talent and will deliver something to back his words... how about Josh?

How many games have the guy made anyway? How many chances he need to make what he "trully" wants? Are his attempts only valid when he has 4 million dollars from kickstarter and no publisher "to ruin everything"? Because that's a heavenly oportunity that most people in the industry would die for, yet many out there, even struggling for money and against evil publishers managed to deliver great classics that Josh piss on like he's above that.

If you're easily butthurt about criticism, you might be on the wrong website just saying.