Obsidian's Pillars of Eternity [BETA RELEASED, GO TO THE NEW THREAD]

[Duraframe300]

Cosmo

You're right. This is the original post. From 2006.

I really disliked most of the CNPCs, I really disliked being forced to go find Imoen, I really disliked the style of dialogue, and I really disliked being flooded with a million quests by every shmoe on the streets of Athkatla. Basically, there wasn't a whole lot I did like about it.

 

[Infinitron]

IIRC, he doesn't like BG2's "sidequests packed into every corner of the world" design. I'm not sure he's ever said why. I can see why somebody would consider that to be poor design in terms of pacing, though.

Can you elaborate on why it could be considered poor design in terms of pacing? Sidequests were one of BG2's biggest strengths.

What Cosmo said.

 

[Sensuki]

BG1 and 2 did indeed have very different styles of dialogue.

"The dialogue in BG2 was obviously written by a different group of people who have a more modern sensibility and vernacular than the people who wrote the dialogue for BG1." - random quote from the net I saved years ago.

 

[cvv]

how many ways can you pronounce EIR GLAN-FATH?

It is not about pronunciation. It's about it not rolling easily from the toungue. I like languages wich do and hate the ones that don't.

Át folyamokon, túl a hegyeken,
végteleneken, rengetegeken
kel keleti szél, hogy hazavigyen,
hogy hazavigyen, hogy hazavigyen.

Jön alagúton, vaskerekeken,
át a hidakon, gyártelepeken
kel keleti szél, hogy hazavigyen,
hogy hazavigyen, hogy hazavigyen.

Át az anyagon, rőt szöveteken,
szerveken és szervezeteken
kel keleti szél, hogy hazavigyen,
hogy hazavigyen, hogy hazavigyen.

God what is this? Hungarian?
Looks like a mix between Finnish, Khuzdul and Black Speech.

 

[Sensuki]

I laughed when I saw that too :D

*oneUP*

 

[EXEcute]

Also, if you'd ask Josh, he'd say BG2 is the worst Infinity Engine game.

Why don't you just write a non-fiction novel about him having an adventure in Roguey-Land? I wouldn't read it but maybe it would do you some good.

 

[Cursed Beaver]

IIRC, he doesn't like BG2's "sidequests packed into every corner of the world" design. I'm not sure he's ever said why. I can see why somebody would consider that to be poor design in terms of pacing, though.

Can you elaborate on why it could be considered poor design in terms of pacing? Sidequests were one of BG2's biggest strengths.

Exactly. The first part in the big city is the one that made the game is famous. It's because it was so dense in quest and different stuff to do everywere.

BG2 sidequest is partly what made the game great. Their absence is ToB is why ToB was a linear shit. All they needed to add was more C&C. And isnn't that's what PE is supposed to do?

 

[Kem0sabe]

IIRC, he doesn't like BG2's "sidequests packed into every corner of the world" design. I'm not sure he's ever said why. I can see why somebody would consider that to be poor design in terms of pacing, though.

I feel just the opposite, the mostly empty maps of BG1 were a let down for me, i prefer to have quests and stuff happening in every zone i visit.

 

[Infinitron]

I feel just the opposite, the mostly empty maps of BG1 were a let down for me, i prefer to have quests and stuff happening in every zone i visit.

There is a compromise between these two extremes.

 

[Zetor]

how many ways can you pronounce EIR GLAN-FATH?

It is not about pronunciation. It's about it not rolling easily from the toungue. I like languages wich do and hate the ones that don't.

Át folyamokon, túl a hegyeken,
végteleneken, rengetegeken
kel keleti szél, hogy hazavigyen,
hogy hazavigyen, hogy hazavigyen.

Jön alagúton, vaskerekeken,
át a hidakon, gyártelepeken
kel keleti szél, hogy hazavigyen,
hogy hazavigyen, hogy hazavigyen.

Át az anyagon, rőt szöveteken,
szerveken és szervezeteken
kel keleti szél, hogy hazavigyen,
hogy hazavigyen, hogy hazavigyen.

God what is this? Hungarian?
Looks like a mix between Finnish, Khuzdul and Black Speech.

Yeah, it's Hungarian. One of the hardest-to-learn languages that also happens to be spectacularly useless. Woo!

(Thy Catafalque isn't a bad band, btw.)

 

[Kem0sabe]

There is a compromise between these two extremes.

Agreed, Arcanum for example had a nice balance and flow to it, with the exception of some questionable dungeon design decisions. You didn't have a single quest hub but a multitude of locations that "forced" the player to actually travel the world instead of just getting quests in the major hub and then returning for more.

 

[Smejki]

how many ways can you pronounce EIR GLAN-FATH?

It is not about pronunciation. It's about it not rolling easily from the toungue. I like languages wich do and hate the ones that don't.

Át folyamokon, túl a hegyeken,
végteleneken, rengetegeken
kel keleti szél, hogy hazavigyen,
hogy hazavigyen, hogy hazavigyen.

Jön alagúton, vaskerekeken,
át a hidakon, gyártelepeken
kel keleti szél, hogy hazavigyen,
hogy hazavigyen, hogy hazavigyen.

Át az anyagon, rőt szöveteken,
szerveken és szervezeteken
kel keleti szél, hogy hazavigyen,
hogy hazavigyen, hogy hazavigyen.

God what is this? Hungarian?
Looks like a mix between Finnish, Khuzdul and Black Speech.

Final boss of linguistics

It is lyrics of helluva good song from hungarian Thy Catafalque. If only I could understand it or at least read it at normal pace (though I know how to read Hungarian). That would really be

 

[Sensuki]

I believe it has been stated that P:E will aim to find the middle ground between the BG1 and BG2 extremes of content density.

 

[Zetor]

That's because the composer / guitarist guy for TC is also a poet... or poet wannabe. :p

I like the less pretentious songs like Molekuláris Gépezetek and Fekete Mezők, though.

 

[felipepepe]

Josh is a damn arrogant guy for someone yet to do something decent... all his games so far were "meh", classical Obsidian "we would do something great but then X happened", and yet he freely stabs classics like he's at higher ground and is perfecting the genre...

 

[Smejki]

Molekuláris Gépezetek

 

[Lancehead]

Josh is a damn arrogant guy for someone yet to do something decent... all his games so far were "meh", classical Obsidian "we would do something great but then X happened", and yet he freely stabs classics like he's at higher ground and is perfecting the genre...

Why should he not criticise if he thinks some systems have issues? Your point about being "arrogant" would only hold water if he's saying his works are better than those he criticises.

 

[Roguey]

I pronounced Dyrwood like Direwood. Of course I'm always mispronouncing these dumb fantasy names.

Anyone who LoL over DotA =

If you're some kind of grognard. MOBAs are terrible, but if one must play one, better to go with LoL over DotA which is a big pile of amateur fail with a terribly high skill floor. (high skill ceiling with low skill floors>needlessly high skill floors)

BG1 and 2 did indeed have very different styles of dialogue.

"The dialogue in BG2 was obviously written by a different group of people who have a more modern sensibility and vernacular than the people who wrote the dialogue for BG1." - random quote from the net I saved years ago.

Lukas Kristjanson wrote the majority of dialogue for BG and he wrote a large chunk for BG2 as well. But yes, the additions of the team changed its style in addition to his learning from his experience.

There was a big time pressure and strict budget (it served as a gap filler between Old World Blues and Dead Money), so it falls with that. But this also might mean, that he kinda fails at setting scope of a project in respect to it budget.

http://www.formspring.me/JESawyer/q/411073454213716744

And speaking of Honest Hearts, I also learned that between the free-wheeling nature of F:NV's content implementation and the strict, low-risk implementation of Honest Hearts content, OEI content usually needs to fall somewhere in-between. A quest that is completely cut-and-dry bog-standard will usually come across that way even if it takes place in a new setting. A quest that is a tangled skein of nightmare scripting will probably ship as a broken mess of half-fulfilled dreams. So when it comes to working with designers, it's good to start with a really solid, stable core of gameplay but leave time for (and encourage) more risky secondary elements after the core has been developed.

Having content that's just "in" and works isn't enough -- both for designers and for people who are playing an Obsidian RPG. People enjoy weird and wacky stuff in quests; it just has to work properly. Our concepting, design, and review processes need to account for the basics but also ensure there's time for the cool and unusual stuff.

 

[Rake]

Josh is a damn arrogant guy for someone yet to do something decent... all his games so far were "meh", classical Obsidian "we would do something great but then X happened", and yet he freely stabs classics like he's at higher ground and is perfecting the genre...

That's the main problem most here have with Josh. He hasn't made anything half as good as BG2, D&D etc. but he talks as if he can pull something better out of his ass. His tone rubs people the wrong way even when some of his criticisms are valid.

 

[Aeschylus]

Final boss of linguistics

Nah, the final boss of linguistics is this language spoken by about 1000 people on a mountain in Russia called Archi. For comparison, English has 5 possible verb agreement forms, Russian has about 50, while this language has ~1.5 million, and the system makes no fucking sense at all.

 

[MicoSelva]

Baldur's Gate city (not the game) had about the optimal quest density for me. It wasn't as empty as BG1 wilderness areas with their static "2 minor quest/area" design, but it wasn't as artificially packed with stuff to do as Athkatla was.

Although even Athkatla was a quest wasteland when compared to Sigil, but PST quests were so unique, interesting and fit so naturally to the world that I did not mind, and kept coming back for more.

 

[Roguey]

I don't see why Josh should hold his tongue regarding criticism considering this forum is full of non- and wannabe-game designers who don't hold theirs.

And unrelated thing about the latest update:

"The camera has a fixed axonometric perspective"
Do you also eat meat for your vegan diet, Josh?

He's a vegetarian, not vegan btw. He loves cheese.

 

[imweasel]

And again completly ignoring that Sawyer never once says that Skyrim has good mechanics/gameplay or anything. Nearly all of the pics accomping the tweets and so on is him doing random stuff.

Sawyer thinks the mechanics in Skyrim are horrible, yet he loves to play it?

He thinks the mechanics are just fine, that is why he is a fan and played it during preprodution of P:E. I mean, he could have replayed the BG series during preproduction, seeing that it is a spiritual predecessor of the game that he is desiging, but how can you expect him to play a game with mechanics/gameplay that he doesn't like? Nobody does that...

Which also brings us to the fact that this applies to EVERY game designer the codex adores. According to *Codex General Game Opinion* Chris Avellone is a lot worse. Just recently with Bioshock: Infinite.

Bioshock: Infinite is a shooter in case you haven't figures that out you dipshit. That is like saying: "OMG he likes racing/sports/puzzle games, so he must hate good RPG mechanics."

Not to mention that Bioshock: Infinite has a lot of story, and Avellone is such a sucker for story.

 

[hoverdog]

He's a vegetarian, not vegan btw. He loves cheese.

of Sawyer. Vegans are subhuman scum.

 

[J_C]

it's Hungarian. One of the hardest-to-learn languages that also happens to be spectacularly useless.

Bullshit. I use it every day.