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Obsidian's Pillars of Eternity [BETA RELEASED, GO TO THE NEW THREAD]

Xeon

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You mean physically? I guess that will be natural. They can still cast their magic using Grimoires I think and as far as I know magic is similar to Dragon Age where its timed and not by slots like in BG so I don't know what kind of bonuses they get if they get any if they choose to rise Intelligence[?].
 

tuluse

Arcane
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Serpent in the Staglands Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Shadorwun: Hong Kong
There is no strength attribute. There is power. Which means you use your soul power to do damage either with weapons, fists, or magics.
 

Space Satan

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We already saw charisma-based wizards.
1375093819_large.jpg
Why not a wizard who can smash all your bones with his uberheavy grimoire.
 

S2ensuki

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If that's his design philosophy, then PE may well become a pretty bland game. Balance character builds around combat only and you're basically back to Diablo school of design, as opposed to making some builds/classes underpowered in combat, but able to make up the difference in usefulness to the party outside of combat, such as dialogue skills, lock-picking, identifying traps, secret doors ad passages, utility stuff, etc.

Here's a primer for you:

Every class will be good in combat. Sawyer wants to remove as many traps in character creation as he can because he hates it when players stop playing games because they made a bad choice. He also wants as many builds and party combinations to be viable as possible.

The classes are being designed as role-ready, which is a little bit pigeonholed on paper, but we'll have to see how we go. If you play characters out of role, they will be inefficient and you may run into trouble, but it should be viable to do it some of the time. From the way Sawyer has been describing it, classes have natural counter-classes as well.

Rogues and Rangers are the damage dealing classes. They will do the highest single target damage of all of the classes. These characters will probably not hold up well to being beat on though, a Fighter's sticky abilities counter a Rogue. The Ranger shares health pool with it's animal companion. We do not know if you get bonus health/stamina from this link, but a Ranger also has to be careful that their animal companion doesn't get trapped ... kind of like Lone Druid in DotA 2 except a lot more terminal.

Barbarians will be good at dealing with trash mobs and squishies. Barbarians will be tough as well and can take a lot of hits from average enemies, but they will probably suffer if targeted by high DPS characters because their deflection sucks and they are 'peaky' characters.

Fighters and Monks are the characters you want out in the front being the tanks, soaking up the DPS. Fighters have high Deflection and can hold people to them with their class abilities, Monks want to take damage to power their status effects which you can use to hold people back from your squishies.

The original Fighter description in the very first class update read that "And while fighters are often thought of as being primarily melee-based, they can specialize in a variety of weapons, including bows, crossbows, and even firearms.". In a recent statement Sawyer said that using a Fighter as a ranged character is playing against type because most of their abilities are melee based. You could still probably specialize in a Ranged weapon but you'd never get the chance to use half the class abilities. You can probably build a Fighter as a non-tank and play one like a Ranger or a Rogue, but you'll be doing it at 70-80% efficiency compared to the class that fills that role.

Wizards are designed to be versatile spell casters. Their spells will probably let them do everything, but their Grimoire limits the array of spells they have access to per encounter, so rather than having a spell for everything available in an encounter you have to pick your spells correctly. Sawyer has also said that while Wizards are versatile their spells will never be as effective as another classes ability if they are similar.

Paladins are good when positioned near allies. They will never be able to 1v1 a high DPS class and win, but if you stick them in melee near your Fighters/Monks etc their short range auras will benefit them, and likewise if you set them up with a Bow or an Arquebus and stick them near the Rangers and Wizards, and use the short range auras to buff their attack speed or accuracy etc.

Chanters are supposed to be pretty versatile, they can be melee or ranged, have good accuracy and average defenses and they chant while fighting to give status effects to the party and/or themselves. The Chants have a large aura range compared to the Paladin. After a certain amount of ticks, the Chanter can unleash a (usually offensive) roar, which probably has to be close range to either damage/stun/slow etc a group of enemies. Chanters look like they'll be one of those classes that can 'fill' any role with a varying degree of efficacy loss. For example: You could tank with a Chanter, it would be less efficient than using a Fighter or a Monk, but better than using a Rogue, Ranger, Cipher or Wizard. They might have an aura that makes them more 'tanky' and they might have a Roar that does an AoE cone stun, but they will never be as good as a Fighter or a Monk and if you use a Chanter as the tank they will run out of Health over an adventuring day faster than a Fighter or a Monk would and they wouldn't be able to last as long in an Encounter if being beat on by tough guys.

You know about Ciphers from the latest update.

The classes we know the least about are Priests and Druids. They both are spell caster classes and have access to all of their spells rather than relying on a Grimoire, but their spell list is not as extensive as a Wizard. One could assume that you can build a melee or ranged Cleric or Druid, and Druids will be able to shapechange into "anthropomorphic animal forms, more like lycanthropes in appearance". You can cast spells while in your animorph form but you can't hold weapons. So one would assume that you could have a Bow Druid, shapechange into a Man-Bear and then wade into melee with Claws. Priests have the only non-self Stamina regen spell(s) so far that we know. Priests also benefit from being in close proximity to allies to give them their Sacred Circle passive accuracy bonus, but if they aren't they get it themselves.

The class 'role' design overall sounds pretty robust, it just plays against a few of the traditional archetypes that some of us are used to. For me the Paladin and the Barbarian are in the frey, toe to toe with the biggest monsters just as much as the Fighter is. Wizards are also nerfed quite a bit.
 

S2ensuki

Learned
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There is no strength attribute. There is power. Which means you use your soul power to do damage either with weapons, fists, or magics.

He has been calling it Strength in examples, but that doesn't mean that he is just using that as a familiar term, as opposed to the actual P:E attribute name.
 

Duraframe300

Arcane
Joined
Dec 21, 2010
Messages
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It applies across all status effects that I can think of. Damage bonuses are the easiest to scale because they're always a percentage. If you find a weapon with the Shocking property, it doesn't matter if it's on a stiletto or a morning star. In both cases, the Shocking property will add the same percentage of inflicted weapon damage as Shock damage.
 

Mantic

Educated
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Sep 20, 2013
Messages
87
If that's his design philosophy, then PE may well become a pretty bland game. Balance character builds around combat only and you're basically back to Diablo school of design, as opposed to making some builds/classes underpowered in combat, but able to make up the difference in usefulness to the party outside of combat, such as dialogue skills, lock-picking, identifying traps, secret doors ad passages, utility stuff, etc.

Here's a primer for you:

Every class will be good in combat. Sawyer wants to remove as many traps in character creation as he can because he hates it when players stop playing games because they made a bad choice. He also wants as many builds and party combinations to be viable as possible.
Pure derp. If you make a bad character you are either retarded, didn't read tooltips/documentation, or you didn't make a bad character and you're just not play them to their strengths. Start the game again with a new character, nothing wrong with that.
 

S2ensuki

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Shoulda Posted the context

So a faster weapon hit has a shorter effect duration than a two-hander hit ? Does that apply across all status effects and not just Cipher abilities?

For instance if I have a Flaming sword that does burn damage, would a Dagger do 1 tick and a Two Handed Sword do 3 ticks etc ?

It applies across all status effects that I can think of. Damage bonuses are the easiest to scale because they're always a percentage. If you find a weapon with the Shocking property, it doesn't matter if it's on a stiletto or a morning star. In both cases, the Shocking property will add the same percentage of inflicted weapon damage as Shock damage.

Pure derp. If you make a bad character you are either retarded, didn't read tooltips/documentation, or you didn't make a bad character and you're just not play them to their strengths. Start the game again with a new character, nothing wrong with that.

I agree with you, but that's not what we're getting.
 

tuluse

Arcane
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Serpent in the Staglands Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Shadorwun: Hong Kong
Pure derp. If you make a bad character you are either retarded, didn't read tooltips/documentation, or you didn't make a bad character and you're just not play them to their strengths. Start the game again with a new character, nothing wrong with that.
Does other people making bad character increase your enjoyment?
 

Infinitron

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Codex Year of the Donut Serpent in the Staglands Dead State Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Wasteland 2 Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Pathfinder: Kingmaker Pathfinder: Wrath I'm very into cock and ball torture I helped put crap in Monomyth
Interesting how controversial the whole "impossible to create a bad character" thing is. I mean, if you're smart, you're not going to ever create a bad character anyway, right? So what do you care if it's not in fact possible to create one? Even if it was possible, you'd never do it.

It's funny - I recently spoke to the sadly absent MMXI, one of the most hardcore posters on the Codex, a guy who's been playing CRPGs since the early 80s, about Sawyer's RPG design philosophy. I told him "Sawyer doesn't believe correct character building should be a challenge in a class-based RPG. He thinks there shouldn't be any dump stats. He also doesn't believe save-or-die spells belong in a game with saving and loading. Etc.". I expected him to react with rage.

His response? "Uh, all of those things are improvements. LOL D&D players."
 
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I told him "Sawyer doesn't believe correct character building should be a challenge in a class-based RPG. He thinks there shouldn't be any dump stats. He also doesn't believe save-or-die spells belong in a game with saving and loading. Etc.". I expected him to react with rage.

Only mondblutians would rage at that formulation.
 

Lhynn

Arcane
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S2ensuki explains a lot, still not happy with the oversimplification of classes/roles in combat, but explained like that sounds a lot better than from pieces of quotes without context.

tuluse thieves didnt suck, they were one of the strongest classes ingame, especially endgame when they could use any item. and please, either clarify for the retards like me or criticize obvious design flaws.

Infinitron making mistakes is part of the cRPG experience, my first BG character sucked, my first nw character sucked. I didnt quit playing those games, i kept exploring the options, learning the mechanics and finally i made something half decent. Its not that others have shittier toons than you, its that you can noticeably improve your way of building your own characters as you grow as a player of that particular game, hes robbing us of this. Not that i really mind it that much, i just hate the idea of being a LOLtankLOL if i want to play a expert in weapons, ex soldier, mercenary, gladiator, samurai, knight(well, maybe knight i wouldnt mind it if it was called tank), amazon, myrmidon, squire, etc.
 

S2ensuki

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http://forums.obsidian.net/topic/64452-update-65-ciphers/page-4#entry1376378



J.E. Sawyer said:
Sabotin said:
I do have some questions about the lore though. Will it be expanded upon why these stones were broken? It seems like a lot of effort for no reason. And secondly, what's the relationship between psyche and soul, because they are used almost interchangeably in this update.
It wasn't the stones in the picture, specifically, but similar (and smaller) stones that farmers knocked over and dragged out of a field to make it more suitable for plowing.
Capital-P Psyche is a defense stat, similar to the Will save in D&D 3.X. However, the relationship between lowercase-p psyche and soul is a complex one. Animancers believe that both physical aspects of the body (including the brain) and the energy of the soul contribute to perception, cognition, memory, and personality. Deficiencies or limitations in one cannot be overcome by the other. "Mind" and "soul" are often used interchangeably, but "brain" and "soul" are not.
 

S2ensuki

Learned
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Oct 1, 2013
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IWTWerQ.jpg


Old anecdote, but the slot information would be new for some people, even though it was stated a long time ago.

Hey now

"You do 22 points of Crush or Pierce damage (whichever the target is more vulnerable to -- that's a property of war hammers)"

:)
 

S2ensuki

Learned
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So, procs get a fixed percentage of DT now instead of the percentage of the proc?

Nah it's the same. Quote from May 9 013

E.g. if you hit someone with a sabre that does +20% Shock damage, you would calculate the base (Slash) damage -- let's say it's 20 -- then the Shock damage, 4. The target is wearing armor that has 8 DT, no special modifier for Slash damage. It takes 12 damage from the sabre itself. The armor has -30% Shock DT, so that goes down to 5.6 DT, which is then reduced to 20% its normal value (because the proc is 20%), or 1.12 DT. The target takes an additional 2.88 damage from Shock, for a total of 14.88.
 

Infinitron

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So, procs get a fixed percentage of DT now instead of the percentage of the proc?

Nah it's the same. Quote from May 9 013

E.g. if you hit someone with a sabre that does +20% Shock damage, you would calculate the base (Slash) damage -- let's say it's 20 -- then the Shock damage, 4. The target is wearing armor that has 8 DT, no special modifier for Slash damage. It takes 12 damage from the sabre itself. The armor has -30% Shock DT, so that goes down to 5.6 DT, which is then reduced to 20% its normal value (because the proc is 20%), or 1.12 DT. The target takes an additional 2.88 damage from Shock, for a total of 14.88.

No, read that image you posted.

"Added damage from properties like Burning or Shocking are always compared to a fixed percentage of the target's DT (I think it's 25%)"
 

Arkeus

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No, read that image you posted.

"Added damage from properties like Burning or Shocking are always compared to a fixed percentage of the target's DT (I think it's 25%)"
That's for the resistance to the proc.

E.G, if you use a Greatsword that makes electric proc, the proc will also be countered by the elecrtic res, not just by the normal armor against slashing.
 

Infinitron

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Codex Year of the Donut Serpent in the Staglands Dead State Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Wasteland 2 Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Pathfinder: Kingmaker Pathfinder: Wrath I'm very into cock and ball torture I helped put crap in Monomyth
No, read that image you posted.

"Added damage from properties like Burning or Shocking are always compared to a fixed percentage of the target's DT (I think it's 25%)"
That's for the resistance to the proc.

E.G, if you use a Greatsword that makes electric proc, the proc will also be countered by the elecrtic res, not just by the normal armor against slashing.

That's what I said.

Infinitron said:
So, procs get a fixed percentage of DT now instead of the percentage of the proc?
 

S2ensuki

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No you're right. That seems like a proc nerf doesn't it ?
 
Last edited:

Infinitron

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Codex Year of the Donut Serpent in the Staglands Dead State Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Wasteland 2 Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Pathfinder: Kingmaker Pathfinder: Wrath I'm very into cock and ball torture I helped put crap in Monomyth

Arkeus

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It's a nerf for low procs (<25%) and a boost for high ones (>25%).
Please explain to me how it means that we don't get BOTH? I mean, this is a specific example with a elemental resistence. It was kinda obvious to me that the Proc would BOTH have a fixed percentage of proc and of DT.
 

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