Obsidian's Pillars of Eternity [BETA RELEASED, GO TO THE NEW THREAD]

[Infinitron]

reasons that were never addressed nor explained

Brother None Care to repeat yourself?

Ask Brother None about it, but I think that the reason they went with a list has nothing to do with tablets or consoles. I'm pretty sure it was done because it is a lot easier to do than a grid-based inventory (less art requirements, mostly, as well as less complex logic for actually displaying the items, it scales better with resolution changes, and no cap on maximum items allowed). I recall talking with him about this a while back and those were the answers he gave.

There's also the fact that some people, you know, just never got the memo that "PC gaming = grid inventory". Fallout had a list. Wasteland 2 is supposed to be like Fallout. QED.

 

[Sensuki]

Wasteland 1 had a list inventory I believe that was why they did it. Grid is far better though and it does look like a console style inventory

In the video they said grid was too limiting for them o_O

I don't see how you can't have all of the functionality that a list has with a grid. You just need more complex algorithms for find and sort is all.

 

[sea]

I'm not sure anyone is objecting to the list itself so much as they are objecting to the lack of cool unique artwork for items and the feel of physically moving them around, but again, that's a space-saving concern (i.e. does a tiny object have an icon that's as big as a huge object?), and a budgetary limitation. It's all about kinesthetics, to steal a hipster term - grid-based systems are more "fun" and "tactile" to use, just like how the Infinity Engine UI, with its ornate look, stone-on-stone sounds and "weighty" character is more fun to use than the floaty futura-UI of NWN2.

But (as I've been trying to hammer home) that's a presentation thing and not a functionality thing - the functionality of the UI should be largely separate from the presentation, and I think people are confusing the two and assuming that when I say "NWN2-like" they mean "ugly web 2.0 bullshit".

Not to mention, "list menu" immediately conjures up the depths of Mass Effect hell, with your inventory loaded with 500 duplicates of the same endless items or whatever. That's not really an issue with lists themselves though, that's an issue with the game's itemization (and the inability to stack same items). I somehow seriously doubt that's a problem for Wasteland 2, if it's supposed to have limited resources.

 

[Chaotic_Heretic]

Project Eternity REALLY likes tablets... only Larian have kept it cool so far, any changes they made being clearly explained.

This. Most changes have been decline. Only Larian's news seems like good news.

I raise this shit, and I get "lol tryhard edgy newfag" Fucking Apologists.

 

[Infinitron]

I'm not sure anyone is objecting to the list itself

No, they're objecting to the list itself. Trust me.

 

[Sensuki]

the lack of cool unique artwork for items

This would be a valid point, except they are doing unique artwork for items.

Grids and lists have the same functionality (you can sort, categorize and tab grids just like you can lists, you could even do a searchbox that altered the list to only show that item or highlight an item in a grid etc), just that grids generally take up more space and give you a better view of your items, lists take up less space and IMO are harder to make useful, harder to get right and yes they lack the "kinesthetics" of a grid

generally speaking Grid inventory > List inventory, especially in an RPG where you might have heaps of items.

 

[sea]

This would be a valid point, except they are doing unique artwork for items.

My bad, they must have yo-yoed on that one. I seem to recall previously they only had abstract vector/outline-style artwork.

 

[Shadenuat]

It's all about kinesthetics, to steal a hipster term - grid-based systems are more "fun" and "tactile" to use

Items of different shapes and sizes are more distinguishable and easier to sort out though.

You make it sound very unimportant, like functionality should top all else, but games are worlds, you never know what exactly would turn out to be that switch that makes player believe in one. For some it could be the fact that plate mail is not a small icon, but a 6x4 object which weights 1000 stones and makes that CLAM sound when hitting your inventory.

 

[felipepepe]

So sad to think that Chaos Chronicles had confirmed grid inventory with weighty sounds...

 

[sea]

It's all about kinesthetics, to steal a hipster term - grid-based systems are more "fun" and "tactile" to use

Items of different shapes and sizes are more distinguishable and easier to sort out though.

You make it sound very unimportant, like functionality should top all else, but games are worlds, you never know what exactly would turn out to be that switch that makes player believe in one. For some it could be the fact that plate mail is not a small icon, but a 6x4 object which weights 1000 stones and makes that CLAM sound when hitting your inventory.

I never said it wasn't important. I actually prefer inventory Tetris stuff over the slot-based system (probably more accurate to say slot than grid) used in games like NWN2, and I also much prefer the tactile feel of the UI. Besides, it's not like Infinity Engine games used a grid system. In fact, I have to say Arcanum's is probably my favorite inventory in a game ever, due to the large high-quality artwork, great sound effects and the sort button that means you don't have to mess with Tetris if you don't want to.

I'm just not confusing functionality with aesthetics. Studying game design very quickly teaches you that although presentation does matter, it is generally something separate from mechanics and functionality, and that getting too hung up on presentation can often lead to poor results since you aren't really asking the questions why, what, how or does this accomplish or relate to a specific system or goal. Instead you end up with "cuz its cool bro" and that's not enough. It's like Neo at the end of the Matrix, once you see all the code behind it you realize how superficial the visible stuff can be.

 

[Sensuki]

TBH it's the same in any design field. I study IT and I would apply the same to Web Design and Software Engineering.

 

[Shadenuat]

In fact, I have to say Arcanum's is probably my favorite inventory in a game ever, due to the large high-quality artwork, great sound effects and the sort button that means you don't have to mess with Tetris if you don't want to.

It's not the most functional of the bunch though. But in a game where good chunk of mechanics is about "inventions", making these items into small icons won't make much sense. So aesthetics plays a very large part in it, it serves the ideas behind the game and behind steampunk genre in general.

TBH it's the same in any design field. I study IT and I would apply the same to Web Design and Software Engineering.

I spent my youth drawing, lining up and figuring out inventories, spellbooks, item descriptions and UI's for obscure browser games, and I had to just figure it out by my own intuition. Had to keep aesthetics in mind, and all the limitations coders forced on me, plus keep it functional, so it never really occurred to me that these should be thought through as some separated systems. It was all in one in the box for me.

Although I'm a guy who, if asked to create something, would draw it first, think about it later, so maybe it's just my way of approaching things.

 

[Lhynn]

Best inventory ever was the one from nwn, bar none. transparent, big, easy to use. easy to organize, hard to miss stuff in it even when its a mess,, with mostly big, well made icons, with character equipment on top of it and most of the relevant information listed on it, using only half the screen with the possibility of using the other half of the screen to list every relevant number, bonus and status.

Shit, the whole U.I. is a piece of work, p. underrated too.

 

[Rake]

Best inventory ever was the one from nwn, bar none. transparent, big, easy to use. easy to organize, hard to miss stuff in it even when its a mess,, with mostly big, well made icons, with character equipment on top of it and most of the relevant information listed on it, using only half the screen with the possibility of using the other half of the screen to list every relevant number, bonus and status.

Shit, the whole U.I. is a piece of work, p. underrated too.

 

[Infinitron]

I actually also think NWN1's UI was pretty decent for the purposes of that game, but I'm not sure it would have held up for a game that required more finesse and tactical control.

 

[Grunker]

Fallout had a list.

Anyone claiming that Fallout's inventory was good is lying through their fucking teeth.

Also, nobody claimed that "PC = grid", they claimed that "list = consoles." You know, because grids are actually possible and superior to lists on a PC, while consoles can't handle anything else. I can't guess why Fallout used a list, but I can tell you that I'm very glad that most PC games use grids.

Other games with list invetories include Fallout 3 and Bloodlines. Paragons of invetory design.

 

[Athelas]

Fallout's inventory system would be competent if the item icons were about 20 times smaller.

 

[Lhynn]

I actually also think NWN1's UI was pretty decent for the purposes of that game, but I'm not sure it would have held up for a game that required more finesse and tactical control.

Well, i see your point, after all nwn1 was a game based on handling a single character, not a team, but there are elements that could be copied.
For example the double feed dialogue/rolls that could be fused. the transparent U.I. that made the transition smooth instead of taking you out of whatever is going on.
Stuff with an adecuate size based on the space it takes.

 

[tuluse]

I'm pretty sure it was done because it is a lot easier to do than a grid-based inventory (less art requirements, mostly, as well as less complex logic for actually displaying the items, it scales better with resolution changes, and no cap on maximum items allowed).

Why would a grid necessitate a cap on maximum items allowed?

 

[Hormalakh]

Re: tablet-functionality. I know this is a little off-topic at this point (and perhaps someone has already brought it up). Can I ask why it's OK for them to "consider" tablet-functionality when designing but not OK for them to "consider" console-functionality? Why are the apologists fine with one mentality but not the other?

 

[sea]

I'm pretty sure it was done because it is a lot easier to do than a grid-based inventory (less art requirements, mostly, as well as less complex logic for actually displaying the items, it scales better with resolution changes, and no cap on maximum items allowed).

Why would a grid necessitate a cap on maximum items allowed?

A list is easier to extend infinitely up/down. A grid has finite space that you need to expand. You could have it scroll down infinitely or use multiple pages I guess, but you also have to save things like the position data of items within that grid. If you move all the items far apart from one another that could potentially cause some annoying problems. Basically the problem isn't so much the number of items itself though, it's storing the exact positioning in the inventory of all those items when you don't have a pre-defined amount of memory available - theoretically it could lead to memory leaks and crap. With a list you could have, say, 10,000 items and since the sorting is algorithmic, it doesn't take much memory at all.

Another concern is that if you want to have filters for the items in a grid-based system (i.e. weapons, armor, ammo, misc) but you also want to save the position data of the items in that grid, you also end up with the problem of which is the "real" grid? If you move items around when you have a filter applied does that actually matter? So then you introduce a usability problem of only being able to move items without a filter applied. Now, if you had a UI where you could not reposition items, and they always simply displayed in a set order, then that would solve the issue. But, then you have the question, why even bother with all that if there's no manual sorting?

Not a programmer so I'm not certain of course, maybe someone can clarify that if they know their stuff.

 

[tuluse]

A list is easier to extend infinitely up/down. A grid has finite space that you need to expand. You could have it scroll down infinitely or use multiple pages I guess, but you also have to save things like the position data of items within that grid. If you move all the items far apart from one another that could potentially cause some annoying problems. Not a programmer so I'm not certain of course, maybe someone can clarify that if they know their stuff.

This does not strike me as a problem at all. You have to save list positions too. I mean software has been doing scrolling grids since 1983.

 

[Sensuki]

Not a programmer so I'm not certain of course, maybe someone can clarify that if they know their stuff.

I just did a CD collection app in Java with lists and a grid. Functionality is the same it's just that grids have columns and rows, a list is a list.

 

[sea]

This does not strike me as a problem at all. You have to save list positions too. I mean software has been doing scrolling grids since 1983.

If they are concerned with memory use, then it does actually become a concern. Remember, we're talking possibly infinite space here. But I'm also likely over-estimating the amount of memory that requires.

But hey, tablets, remember?

EDIT: In that case, people who know more than I do have dismissed this concern. Fair enough.

 

[Lancehead]

generally speaking Grid inventory > List inventory, especially in an RPG where you might have heaps of items.

Lists are (or can be) better for heaps of items.