Obsidian's Pillars of Eternity [BETA RELEASED, GO TO THE NEW THREAD]

[Duraframe300]

I'm curious to see whether Josh's approach to game design results in spectacularly bad combat mechanics, or unprecedentedly great combat mechanics, the latter being my preferred outcome.

I just hope they don't turn out to be thoroughly mediocre, and yet excused or even praised by fanboys and apologists.

Have you seen an Obsidian fanboy to praise their gameplay? (except Roguey, it doesn't count) Most Obsidian fans are fans because "great writting, great story,great characters, worth to endure the gameplay".
From Planescape too New Vegas it's the same story.

I honestly enjoyed Dungeon Siege III's core gameplay (Far more than D3). It's also one of my more enjoyable co-op experiences. The problems with DSIII lie elswhere, mainly in how barebones everything is.

(Also boss fights putting you in a spot for cutscenes)

 

[DraQ]

Roguey, it doesn't count

Truer words have never been spoken.

 

[Rake]

I'm curious to see whether Josh's approach to game design results in spectacularly bad combat mechanics, or unprecedentedly great combat mechanics, the latter being my preferred outcome.

I just hope they don't turn out to be thoroughly mediocre, and yet excused or even praised by fanboys and apologists.

Have you seen an Obsidian fanboy to praise their gameplay? (except Roguey, it doesn't count) Most Obsidian fans are fans because "great writting, great story,great characters, worth to endure the gameplay".
From Planescape too New Vegas it's the same story.

I honestly enjoyed Dungeon Siege III's core gameplay (Far more than D3). It's also one of my more enjoyable co-op experiences. The problems with DSIII lie elswhere, mainly in how barebones everything is.

(Also boss fights putting you in a spot for cutscenes)

That's why i quoted until NV. I haven't play DS3, but i have heard that it's the most un-Obsidian game out there. Boring story, meh characters, no bugs, good gameplay,except the shity camera. It's the opposite of all other Obsidian games.

 

[Jedi Exile]

I haven't play DS3, but i have heard that it's the most un-Obsidian game out there. Boring story, meh characters, no bugs, good gameplay,except the shity camera. It's the opposite of all other Obsidian games.

I liked the story and characters, and some of the dialogues were very funny. This is an Obsidian game for sure. The problem with DS3 is that it is a B-game. I remember how one of the Obsidian employees boasted that DS3 was very cheap to make, and even if it didn't generated much profit it was a financial success.

 

[Duraframe300]

That's why i quoted until NV. I haven't play DS3, but i have heard that it's the most un-Obsidian game out there. Boring story, meh characters, no bugs, good gameplay,except the shity camera. It's the opposite of all other Obsidian games.

It's not the *opposite*. The story and charachters are actually *better* than NWN2's and (imo) Alpha Protocol's. Jeyne Kassynder is also one of the more interesting villians Obsidian has produced.

It's just.... Well it's somewhat the opposite. You know how in all other Obsidian games you can point something out that has been extraordinary (even if it has faults)? DSIII doesn't have that. That's why people are calling it mediocre. It's really very barebones, both in a narrative and gameplay sense.

 

[Arkeus]

I liked the story and characters, and some of the dialogues were very funny. This is an Obsidian game for sure. The problem with DS3 is that it is a B-game. I remember how one of the Obsidian employees boasted that DS3 was very cheap to make, and even if it didn't generated much profit it was a financial success.

Yes, apparently, for all of the people complaining Obsidian can't make a game on a budget, Obsidian is supposedly known amongst publishers for making games that sell well on very low-budgets.

 

[DeepOcean]

DS 3 was the result of Obsidian trying to make a more complex Diablo clone with no budget and with isometric ARPG for consoles limitations. They should had gone into a more direct Diablo clone approach: Here is evil cathedral, go get loot and kill monsters. They tried to add a more complex story with a more complex setting but didn't had the budget to develop all of this enough. There was a big city in the end with a very Arcanum like vibe but because they didn't had the budget they couldn't make a explorable big city with alot of quests, so there is a supposed big city where you can only explore two corridors. They tried to do too much with too little, the end result was a mediocre Diablo clone for consoles that wasn't complex enough to be even a popamole RPG. DS 3 could be a really great game if Obsidian had a decent budget.

Hunted: Demon Forge was supposed to be a fantasy land Gears of War with co-op but with low budget, it was popamole but with crappy graphics, not exactly great. InExile needed the money, I can imagine Fargo pitching Hunted for the publisher: "It is like Gears of War but with grimdark fantasy. Look, it has multiplayer". I see no difference between Hunted and DS 3 in terms of money for survival. InXike have alot of great writers/designers in Wasteland 2 and Torment. What difference makes if the code guys worked on shitty games like Hunted?

 

[Roguey]

I'm expecting Torment to outclass as well as out-fund and outsell P:E, can't wait for the tears of anguish from some of these Obshitian Ordurr sheeplords.

BG and BG2 outsold Planescape Torment by a ridiculous margin, I don't know why you think the opposite will happen here.

 

[DraQ]

Decline is eternal.

 

[Diablo169]

What the fuck is this, a console wars topic? We're talking about 2 isometric rpgs made in the tradition of infinity engine titles. Who the hell cares which one sells more? We get to play both of them and that is awesome.

 

[Roguey]

I think it's great how the game with the superior gameplay (BG2) outsold the one with bad gameplay even if the writing in the former is dumb. Because games are for playing.

 

[AN4RCHID]

Obsidian is only good at writing, though. I mean, Josh Saywer's the lead on Project Eternity and the only good game he's worked on is Fallout: New Vegas which had great writing and awful gameplay.

 

[Duraframe300]

Obsidian is only good at writing, though. I mean, Josh Saywer's the lead on Project Eternity and the only good game he's worked on is Fallout: New Vegas which had great writing and awful gameplay.

New Vegas had awful gameplay, because its base was already shit. Compared to Fallout 3 it was as good as it could have gotten (especially with J.E's Hardcore Mod)

Which is still shit, but yeah. At least it was an improvement over its predecessor. In the case of KOTOR 2, that is way more debatable.

Also, while Josh likes to think about lore and stuff. Under his own admittance he's more into system design and isn't that great at writing prose.

 

[AN4RCHID]

Oh yeah, it was way better than Fallout 3, but that's not saying much. And the base Obsidian is working on this time is not exactly fantastic either (the "tactical" combat of Icewind Dale, huh?). Tim Cain and Josh Sawyer on system design sounds like a fucking trainwreck to me, but maybe their failings will balance each other out. I bet they'll at least design some satisfying character progression, if Fallout, Arcanum, and New Vegas are anything to go by.

Edit: I know Josh says he isn't a writer, but I actually thought his F:NV characters were pretty good.

 

[Roguey]

New Vegas had decent gameplay. Icewind Dale has some cool boss fights, some of which were designed by Josh Sawyer. /brokenrecord

 

[Surf Solar]

New Vegas had decent gameplay.

 

[curry]

New Vegas had decent gameplay.

Did you even play FNV? Gameplay was one of the least retarded features.

 

[Roguey]

New Vegas had decent gameplay.

Referring back to
http://www.formspring.me/JESawyer/q/235975522612416302
Oh sure, the iso-Fallouts did some things better, they also did quite a few things worse.

 

[Surf Solar]

But I am more interested in what YOU found fun in NV's gameplay? I like NV, but the gameplay is surely something I think could have been better.

 

[Roguey]

I liked the weapon progression, the variety of guns and ammo types, killing cazadores, deathclaws, and all the vault 34 ghouls, and using my stealth skill and that perk to disable robots in bot-heavy areas.

Oh sure it could have been much better, but that would require an engine that could handle things like progressive recoil and continuous beams and such. Also a doing-away of Bethesda fan expectations such as getting xp for every activity and precise quest markers. Semi-related funny thing Josh said not-too-long ago:

i decided to finally beat new vegas so i started a game intending to do melee weapons and join the legion, and decided to go north toward vegas from goodsprings for the first time instead of following the 'normal' path up the eastern highway. the only obstacle in the way was a crowd of cazadors i blew up with dynamite from a cliff and then it's a clear shot up to vegas. funny how people complain about being railroaded

what happens is they die to a hugely powerful deathclaw or cazador and then try to go around and run into an invisible wall and say "this entire game is all invisible walls and railroads" and then they cry and cry

in f3 you could charge and kill a minigun-wielding super mutant at 3rd level by circle strafing around it with a baseball bat. there's a pretty strong correlation between a player's previous fallout experience and how he or she responds to the difficulty in f:nv.

 

[Surf Solar]

Hm, I think I actually with you there, the weapons and weapon progression felt nice. Some of the quests were also nice. If only it wouldn't have been in this horrible engine/perspective, but that's not Obsidian to blame..

 

[Blaine]

BG and BG2 outsold Planescape Torment by a ridiculous margin, I don't know why you think the opposite will happen here.

Intellectually dishonest as always, I see. Planescape: Torment sold poorly at the time because it wasn't well marketed, because it was different and weird, and also because of its strong emphasis on story and de-emphasis of standard cRPG tropes. There wasn't a generic fantasy scene with elves painted on the box art, causing impressionable idiots to give it a pass; the Planescape campaign setting was fairly obscure. Forgotten Realms is the most famous D&D campaign setting by a titanic margin.

Considering you're a feminist, I'm not terribly surprised to see you presenting half-truths out of context in order to fit your agenda.

In the years since, Planescape: Torment's greatness was recognized, and its reputation now exceeds that of Baldur's Gate, Icewind Dale, and, in the eyes of many, Fallout.

If it's hard numbers you want, guess what? T:ToN out-funded P:E. That's more than enough reason to think the opposite will happen here, dumbass.

 

[Roguey]

Intellectually dishonest as always, I see. Planescape: Torment sold poorly at the time because it wasn't well marketed, because it was different and weird, and also because of its strong emphasis on story and de-emphasis of standard cRPG tropes. There wasn't a generic fantasy scene with elves painted on the box art, causing impressionable idiots to give it a pass; the Planescape campaign setting was fairly obscure. Forgotten Realms is the most famous D&D campaign setting by a titanic margin.

http://www.quartertothree.com/game-...-No-One-Played&p=117970&viewfull=1#post117970

We did sell-through around 400k worldwide on Torment. There seems to be an ongoing legacy that the game did very poorly at retail, which isn't true. It actually sold more copies than the Fallouts did.

Those aren't Final Fantasy numbers, but it certainly was profitable for the company.

In the years since, Planescape: Torment's greatness was recognized, and its reputation now exceeds that of Baldur's Gate, Icewind Dale, and, in the eyes of many, Fallout.

I don't see how one can accurately quantify this. There are a lot of vocal fans, but there always were. Games journalists gushed over Torment on release.

If it's hard numbers you want, guess what? T:ToN out-funded P:E. That's more than enough reason to think the opposite will happen here, dumbass.

Barely. 419 more kickstarter backers.

 

[Surf Solar]

BG and BG2 outsold Planescape Torment by a ridiculous margin, I don't know why you think the opposite will happen here.

Intellectually dishonest as always, I see. Planescape: Torment sold poorly at the time because it wasn't well marketed, because it was different and weird, and also because of its strong emphasis on story and de-emphasis of standard cRPG tropes. There wasn't a generic fantasy scene with elves painted on the box art, causing impressionable idiots to give it a pass; the Planescape campaign setting was fairly obscure. Forgotten Realms is the most famous D&D campaign setting by a titanic margin.

Considering you're a feminist, I'm not terribly surprised to see you presenting half-truths out of context in order to fit your agenda.

In the years since, Planescape: Torment's greatness was recognized, and its reputation now exceeds that of Baldur's Gate, Icewind Dale, and, in the eyes of many, Fallout.

If it's hard numbers you want, guess what? T:ToN out-funded P:E. That's more than enough reason to think the opposite will happen here, dumbass.

blain pls

It's intellectually dishonest to simply state the truth that BG1/2 were far more succesfull than PS:T was?

 

[Blaine]

Barely. 419 more kickstarter backers.

And yet that's a massive change from "outsold by a ridiculous margin", isn't it?

419 backers is a small margin, but there are also an additional $190,000 (Kickstarter only) to consider. That's 5% more monies raised—still a small margin, but the point is that P:E was edged out.

What we're discussing re: sales figures is why both of the BG games outsold Planescape: Torment. Comparatively speaking, the reasons I gave are completely valid. BG was generic fantasy, it was Forgotten Realms, it featured familiar races, familiar monsters, familiar mechanics, and was marketed to kingdom come. It was mainstream, for a lack of a better term, whereas Fallout and Planescape are niche. And personally, I do believe it sold poorly given how beloved it ultimately became.

The tables have turned now, however. Its reputation solidified, T:ToN can and quite possibly will overshadow your generic perfect cRPG to end all cRPGs.