People News ObsidiLeaks: The Chris Avellone May of Rage Archive

[Grauken]

Feel like the Hiver/MRY disagreement stems from evaluating the game in entirely different contexts. MRY is looking at PST from the perspective of literary tradition going back centuries (millennia really), featuring almost exclusively male protagonists in pretty much exclusively male situations. I agree that this analysis is uncontroversial, if you're looking at the narrative in that context, and if you accept there is a literary history and it influences writing.

The SJWs were pretty succesful when you start thinking on their terms without even realizing it

 

[TwinkieGorilla]

WTF is MCA a regular here now?

HI MCA I AM A HUGE FAN THANK YOU FOR ALL YOUR CONTRIBUTIONS TO RPGS AND GREAT GAMES LIKE INTO THE BREACH AND PREY OVER THE YEARS.

 

[ArchAngel]

Thats Mr. Hiver for you peon.

I at the very least have some common sense and decency not to strawman what others are thinking, as if im telepathic and then argue against that.
Besides that your whole argument is stupid appeal to "millenia of literally tradition" fallacy through which you attempt to imply i am somehow against "it" - while also trying to establish that PsT writing was specific adherence to that "millenia of literally tradition" which is laughably idiotic for several reasons, most obvious one being that there isnt any such thing as singular specific "literally tradition".

Im going to kindly urge you not to twist my words or try to put your own into my mouth, else further replies will be much harsher.

What happened to you man? You would have been raging hard by now and calling everyone names.. did you discover pot or something in the meantime?

 

[hello friend]

Wizards/TSR certainly wasn't at a point where they wanted anything more than traditional sensibilities in their games (this went all the way up to Mask of the Betrayer and beyond, but if you want to work with a license, you respect its parameters).

Ah, the sweet, sweet past. I can dig a little experimentation with the franchise, but man, they dug too deep.

 

[TwinkieGorilla]

Holy shit, Hiver's back? Dear lord.

 

[AMG]

Male, female, why not both?
The Transitioned One

 

[rohand]

 

[Riddler]

Male, female, why not both?
The Transitioned One

The only true answer to "What can change the nature of a man?"

Snip snip!

 

[MRY]

The problem with the after-the-fact @ edit is that it doesn't give a notification, so I almost missed this in favor of a "swollen rods" joke in my Fallen Gods thread. Would've been gloriously apt.

Also, MRY, I do regret we never had the chance to interact more on TTON; beyond doing reviews of story, Erritis writing, Sagus Cliffs review and suggestions for faction quests, I am disappointed we didn't have a chance to share more design elements. Next time, I say. : )

I'm pleased to have contributed a brick to your fortress of regrets in my own small way. In all seriousness, I'm sorry, too, particularly because I can estimate some of what I lost by knowing what I gained from working with Colin, Kevin, Adam, George, Brian, Gavin, and the rest of the crew. I'm not sure our work ever crossed at all, actually, though I vaguely recall seeing the Erritis doc at one point. It would've been fun to be able to do something other than guess at your methodology by the end product. And since I haven't played (and may never play) TTON, I can't even do the latter here. So it goes. Maybe we can cross paths as imp and angel on Vault Dweller's shoulders.

Feel like the Hiver/MRY disagreement stems from evaluating the game in entirely different contexts. MRY is looking at PST from the perspective of literary tradition going back centuries (millennia really), featuring almost exclusively male protagonists in pretty much exclusively male situations. I agree that this analysis is uncontroversial, if you're looking at the narrative in that context, and if you accept there is a literary history and it influences writing.

The SJWs were pretty succesful when you start thinking on their terms without even realizing it

It's sort of amazing that by saying that a character's gender matters, I find myself accused on the Codex of postmodern deconstructionism, but the surprises in this discussion never cease, and reaffirm to me that the game's not worth the candle. Perhaps Chris has put matters to bed with statement that, in contrast to PS:T, "KOTOR2 is less about gender." But perhaps now I will be told that only postmodernists care about authorial intention.

 

[Infinitron]

I actually thought Grauken was talking about hiver.

 

[MRY]

I actually thought Grauken was talking about hiver.

I would have thought that the idea that PS:T is about a male character with male flaws engaged in male relationships would be fairly uncontroversial.

Sorry, but no. This really sounds like a very modern interpretation, independent of what your politics are. When it came out most people didn't view it from a gendered viewpoint, just a human one

 

[Mr. Hiver]

Of course the gender matters but not to such extremes.

What actually matters the most is - quality of writing.

 

[Azarkon]

As opposed to every single damn RPG in existence including PST in which we all play manly awesome super powerful characters from the get go!

Wheres Ellen Ripley? Why is she not an example of a great female character? Sarah Connor?
Why not Charlize Theron Furiosa? Or several other characters she played in more demanding dramas? How about Jessica Chastain in Zero dark thirty, Amy Adams in Arrival, Dolores in first 9 episodes of Westworld, Michell Pfeifer Catwoman, Frances McDormand character in Three Bilboards, and so on. Hell, even Gadot Wonder Woman. Why are not these taken as examples of great characters?

Ellen Ripley - creator: Ridley Scott, main market of Alien movies: male science fiction nerds
Sarah Connor - creator: James Cameron, main market of Terminator movies: male science fiction nerds
Furiosa - creator: George Miller, main market of Mad Max movies: male science fiction nerds
Jessica Chastain - creator: Kathryn Bigelow, main market of Zero Dark Thirty: military nerds? is there any evidence women went to watch this movie in huge numbers?
Amy Adams - how is she not an example of a woman who's trying to challenge male power structures in the form of the aggressive national military leaders of the US and China, who ignores what she says until, at last, she contacts one of them through time with her magic alien powers?
Dolores - how is she not an example of a woman who's trying to challenge male power structures in the form of Anthony Hopkins and the man in black, who drags her along and abuses her until, at last, she breaks free from her chains?
Michell Pfeifer Cat woman - creator: Tim Burton, main market of Batman Returns: male comic book nerds

Need I go on?

The difference between your list, and mine, is that my list consists of the three most popular novel series written by women, for women in the last decade. By contrast, most of your list consists of movies made by men, for a male audience, or movies that didn't sell very well, or movies and shows that follow the pattern I talked about. I could add more examples like Fifty Shades of Grey and The Handmaid's Tale, but why bother? The pattern is obvious. Yes, there is female literature out there where the female protagonist can be substituted by a male protagonist, and it wouldn't change much, but this is the exception, not the rule.

 

[Grauken]

Counterpoint, the entire 200 thousand urban fantasy novels written by women in the last two decades with a strong, special female character that gets to fuck every alpha male or alpha vampire running around while killing ancients evil like theres no yesterday due to their super special powers. Power fantasies can be had by all and aren't just a male thing. There might be differences due to biology and what, but that its.

Azarkon, your examples show your bias quite clearly

 

[Azarkon]

Counterpoint, the entire 200 thousand urban fantasy novels written by women in the last two decades with a strong, special female character that gets to fuck every alpha male or alpha vampire running around while killing ancients evil like theres no yesterday due to their super special powers. Power fantasies can be had by all and aren't just a male thing. There might be difference due to biology and what, but that its.

Did any of them ever make it to the best selling lists? Did they ever reach the equivalent of comic books popularity among males?

Yes, there are a lot of trash novels out there. But their audience is niche, while male power fantasies found in the most popular comic books are qualitatively different than the female resistance fantasies found in the most popular women's novels. Unfortunately, there aren't many female comic book authors of similar popularity, so we have to rely on novels.

 

[Mr. Hiver]

You do know Chris Avellone is a man, right?

By contrast, most of your list consists of movies made by men, for a male audience

Yup.

Mhhhmm.

Exactemundo.

The rest of your arguments are even stupider attempts to proclaim something that doesnt have anything to do with reality.

movies that didn't sell very well

Pathetically dumb non-argument. And i guess that means you ascertain value of something by how much it sold, so... transformers are height of art. Gotcha.

or movies and shows that follow the pattern I talked about

Your pattern is dumb, and none of the movies i mentioned focus on that at all.

I could add more examples like Fifty Shades of Grey and The Handmaid's Tale,

Yes, please do. Give us more examples of your taste for vomit inducing garbage.

 

[Grauken]

Counterpoint, the entire 200 thousand urban fantasy novels written by women in the last two decades with a strong, special female character that gets to fuck every alpha male or alpha vampire running around while killing ancients evil like theres no yesterday due to their super special powers. Power fantasies can be had by all and aren't just a male thing. There might be difference due to biology and what, but that its.

Did any of them ever make it to the best selling lists? Did they ever reach the equivalent of comic books popularity among males?

Yeah, there are a lot of trash novels out there; but their audience is niche. But male power fantasies of the most popular sort - those found in comic books - are qualitatively different than the female resistance fantasies found in the most popular women's novels.

Holy shit, urban fantasy lit. especially the one that was formed in the Anita Blake mold has been a powerhouse for years, that shits not niche by a long shot

But its been mainly read by woman, so why would you know anything about that, eh

 

[Latro]

Counterpoint, the entire 200 thousand urban fantasy novels written by women in the last two decades with a strong, special female character that gets to fuck every alpha male or alpha vampire running around while killing ancients evil like theres no yesterday due to their super special powers. Power fantasies can be had by all and aren't just a male thing. There might be difference due to biology and what, but that its.

Did any of them ever make it to the best selling lists? Did they ever reach the equivalent of comic books popularity among males?

Yeah, there are a lot of trash novels out there; but their audience is niche. But male power fantasies of the most popular sort - those found in comic books - are qualitatively different than the female resistance fantasies found in the most popular women's novels.

Holy shit, urban fantasy lit. especially the one that was formed in the Anita Blake mold has been a powerhouse for years, that shits not niche by a long shot

yeah, female fantasy lit is a pretty powerful genre atm, most of the book-signing filler at stores are urban fantasy women or sci fi dudes

 

[Mr. Hiver]

What a pathetic bitch, MRY is already ignoring me. What a wuss.

Very manly too.

 

[Azarkon]

Counterpoint, the entire 200 thousand urban fantasy novels written by women in the last two decades with a strong, special female character that gets to fuck every alpha male or alpha vampire running around while killing ancients evil like theres no yesterday due to their super special powers. Power fantasies can be had by all and aren't just a male thing. There might be difference due to biology and what, but that its.

Did any of them ever make it to the best selling lists? Did they ever reach the equivalent of comic books popularity among males?

Yeah, there are a lot of trash novels out there; but their audience is niche. But male power fantasies of the most popular sort - those found in comic books - are qualitatively different than the female resistance fantasies found in the most popular women's novels.

Holy shit, urban fantasy lit. especially the one that was formed in the Anita Blake mold has been a powerhouse for years, that shits not niche by a long shot

But its been mainly read by woman, so why would you know anything about that, eh

Anita Blake: Vampire Hunter

The books have sold more than six million copies

vs.

Hunger Games

As of 2014, the trilogy has sold more than 65 million copies in the U.S. alone

Twilight

In November 2011, the series had sold over 120 million copies worldwide with translations into at least 38 different languages around the globe

Not in the same league.

I do recognize that there are exceptions - Shadowhunters probably fits the trope you're talking about, while still being immensely popular. But I'll counter with this - why aren't there male resistance fantasies of similar popularity?

 

[Grauken]

I don't even have a clue wtf a resistance fantasy is, I don't speak SJW

 

[Azarkon]

Then you need to read my posts, instead of commenting on them.

 

[Mr. Hiver]

Im loathe to think about it at all but i guess he is trying to argue Chris should write such.. urrgg... resistance female fantasy... like in marvelous examples he provided.
It just... boggles the mind.

 

[Azarkon]

You seem to be missing the fact that Chris didn't write a male power fantasy in Planescape: Torment, he deconstructed one - specifically, the classic CRPG heroic tale. A similar treatment for the tropes in Twilight, Hunger Games, etc. would be... Interesting, to be sure, and even welcome, in light of the fact that these books have gotten popular enough for there to be deconstructions.

 

[Mr. Hiver]

hehe... hehehe...