Putting the 'role' back in role-playing games since 2002.
Donate to Codex
Good Old Games
  • Welcome to rpgcodex.net, a site dedicated to discussing computer based role-playing games in a free and open fashion. We're less strict than other forums, but please refer to the rules.

    "This message is awaiting moderator approval": All new users must pass through our moderation queue before they will be able to post normally. Until your account has "passed" your posts will only be visible to yourself (and moderators) until they are approved. Give us a week to get around to approving / deleting / ignoring your mundane opinion on crap before hassling us about it. Once you have passed the moderation period (think of it as a test), you will be able to post normally, just like all the other retards.

Review Of Monsters, Men and BROche

Vault Dweller

Commissar, Red Star Studio
Developer
Joined
Jan 7, 2003
Messages
28,046
felipepepe said:
Sceptic said:
I'd still like someone to write a review of the game please.
Why? All the info is there, good points explained, bad points made fun of, can't think of any aspect of the game left out.
But the tone is wrong. And don't even get me started on the font. I told VoD that nobody will take us seriously unless we get a more appropriate font, but did he listen?
 

Vault Dweller

Commissar, Red Star Studio
Developer
Joined
Jan 7, 2003
Messages
28,046
commie said:
Can't wait to post a Codexian review of AoD full of hearty lols about the shitty Mortal Combat finishing moves(something suitably snarky about being able to lift a guy over your head on a spear etc.). I'll have to make sure to also direct VoD to all the 'this game sucks' reviews from internet non-entities so he posts them as news.
No, please, not AoD. It will just hurt too much. I'll change, I promise. I... I take everything back. The Witcher 2 is an amazing game. And Dragon Age 2 wasn't as bad as I made it sound to be. I was just jealous that they've actually released something...

bhlaab said:
Wait you spend the entire review being cunty about everything in the game and then at the end you say "But seriously folks it's not that bad" Is this some kind of sick double-troll?

I'm less sure about the game's quality after reading the review than I was before
mikaelis said:
Hmm, actually as I read these last three paragraphs again they may as well be considered the pinnacle of irony and sarcasm.

In which case...



... I was double-trolled :yeah:

:D
 

Vault Dweller

Commissar, Red Star Studio
Developer
Joined
Jan 7, 2003
Messages
28,046
Shannow said:
Not to mention that Sapkowski's setting is decades older than DA's and you suggest that CDP are the ones copying getting inspiration from Bio.
Surely you realize that we weren't serious there.

The whole Geralt + amnesia angle while still shit is handled far better than in TW1.
How so? In TW1 you have to talk to different people who knew you and could shed some light on your past. In TW2 it's a passive experience and you just watch crudely drawn cartoons.

You also fail to mention that it is now a real action RPG/adventure and that the direct controls are far better suited to the genre than TW1's.
Hard to say. There is an animation delay and often trying to, say, throw a bomb will get you locked in place and killed. As an action RPG it's too story-driven, the character system is poorly thought through and too passive, the combat is too simplistic and easy, and the items distribution sucks.

No mention of other mini-bosses like the endregena queens, trolls, elementals, arachni, etc that require you to play the game well (at least without broken builds).
Well? All you have to do is press spacebar a lot. Attack twice and roll, attack twice and roll, cast your favourite spell, attack twice and roll... The game doesn't require ANY builds whatsofucking ever, which is a HUGE fucking problem.

Overall you give the impression that TW2 is just a dumbed down version of TW1 + EPIC story + awesome button = in codex words: banal, shit, boring.
It IS a dumbed down game. Most interviews suggest as much.

But there are also improvements and some of the "dumbing down" is also actually an improvement (IMO eg: swordskills, controls, lack of "stances"). For the far superior gameplay alone I like TW2 far better than TW1. (Still not even close to even Gothic 3...)
How's the lack of stances an improvement? Controls? Not so sure. Swordskills are just passive bonuses. It's not like you learn new attacks. Even a group style has been replaced with a passive bonus.

And yes, despite the game's numerous flaws (some of which you failed to mention) and bad design decisions the game feels like a work of love.
Yes. When it comes to graphics. It's a beautiful, beautiful game. The rest is an attempt to bring the game to the fabled wider audience.

Best action-adventure/RPG since Risen.
The difference is that Risen puts you in control. The Witcher 2 grabs your hand and drags you through the game, while pretending that it's you who's making decisions.
 

Jools

Eater of Apples
Patron
Joined
Feb 1, 2009
Messages
10,788
Location
Mêlée Island
Codex 2014 Make the Codex Great Again! Insert Title Here Codex Year of the Donut Codex+ Now Streaming! Codex USB, 2014 Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2
WTF is wrong with people? The web is full of more of less dull reviews, which all cover more or less the same points in the same boring, smartass, "generic-gamer" tone, and they range from extremely positive to positively negative.

This review covers all that really needs be covered, and as an added bonus it comes in a format that is pleasant to read as well as entertaining.

Does this review help the reader? Yes, it does, until said reader failed his "irony and sarcasm" class at elementary school.

Like one boss of mine once said, after putting up some signs directing people to the site (as in, archaeological site), "if they still can't find the way to the site despite the signs, they don't even deserve seeing the site". Elitist academic ass attitude? Yes. Did he have a point? Yes.

I'm not saying VoD and VD had that same attitude, but the review DOES its job, and a good one at that, whether people agree or not either with the tone. Why so much winging at the snarky/sarcy tone, I do not understand.
 

Vault Dweller

Commissar, Red Star Studio
Developer
Joined
Jan 7, 2003
Messages
28,046
Because some people liked the game and wanted to read a nice review that praises the game while pointing at minor issues to be "balanced and unbiased."
 

commie

The Last Marxist
Patron
Joined
May 12, 2010
Messages
1,865,260
Location
Where one can weep in peace
Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Divinity: Original Sin 2
Vault Dweller said:
commie said:
Can't wait to post a Codexian review of AoD full of hearty lols about the shitty Mortal Combat finishing moves(something suitably snarky about being able to lift a guy over your head on a spear etc.). I'll have to make sure to also direct VoD to all the 'this game sucks' reviews from internet non-entities so he posts them as news.
No, please, not AoD. It will just hurt too much. I'll change, I promise. I... I take everything back. The Witcher 2 is an amazing game. And Dragon Age 2 wasn't as bad as I made it sound to be. I was just jealous that they've actually released something...

Well behave then. A review of mine in the vein of yours would knock 5-10 sales from your projections, effectively halving your potential revenue. :smug:


Nice try to link DA2 to me though as if I liked it or something. Funny thing is that the crude 3D and shit brown palette of DA2 is a lot closer to the art style of AoD than it is to TW2. Lots of 'awesum' death animations in both games too.
 

felipepepe

Codex's Heretic
Patron
Joined
Feb 2, 2007
Messages
17,313
Location
Terra da Garoa
Vault Dweller said:
Because some people liked the game and wanted to read a nice review that praises the game while pointing at minor issues to be "balanced and unbiased."
I never got that, why people need other people telling them the game they played and liked is good? They know they are Untermensch, so they don't take their own opinion into account? They feel ashamed of liking a game that people say its bad?

Crooked Bee said:
Also, I've never played any of the Dynasty Warriors games. I guess I should give one of them a try.
Play DW 7 singleplayer campaigns, or call a BRO and split-screen DW 4 or 5. DW 6 is bad.

To get this straight out, the soldiers AI is simply non-existant, they are there just to be slain. But the enemy officers pose a good fight, and playing in Chaos Mode is a great chalenge that will get you on the egde of your seat.

The series is the king of buttonmashing games, if you don't have a problem with that, you are in for a lot of fun, slaying 1.000 chineses per average battle. I like that they don't take thenselves seriously (just watch the intros), but still manage to tell a good (and kind of true) story. I care for the all the 62 playable characters in the game much more than for Gerrard, Shepard or Hawke. :smug:
 

Morkar Left

Guest
Nice read and a good laugh but I can't take it serious as a review. If I would want to know if I should buy the game or not I wouldn't make my decision based on this review.

It reads like the opposite of a a fanboy review if you leave the sarcasm aside. Like "I want to bash the game because I want to bash something". I wonder how many other websites won't get the sarcasm and take the praise for real :lol:
 
In My Safe Space
Joined
Dec 11, 2009
Messages
21,899
Codex 2012
bhlaab said:
Wait you spend the entire review being cunty about everything in the game and then at the end you say "But seriously folks it's not that bad" Is this some kind of sick double-troll?

I'm less sure about the game's quality after reading the review than I was before
Game is worth playing = 5/10. Being a cunt = explaining why not 10/10.
 

Shannow

Waster of Time
Joined
Sep 15, 2006
Messages
6,386
Location
Finnegan's Wake
Vault Dweller said:
Shannow said:
Not to mention that Sapkowski's setting is decades older than DA's and you suggest that CDP are the ones copying getting inspiration from Bio.
Surely you realize that we weren't serious there.
Nope. And that's the problem why so many are whining about "teh funneys". Considering the tone of the rest of the review this part could have been serious and read as, eg:"It's so shitty, they even had to steal from Bioware." or "They wanted to make it accessable. In doing so they copied Bio as much as possible."

The whole Geralt + amnesia angle while still shit is handled far better than in TW1.
How so? In TW1 you have to talk to different people who knew you and could shed some light on your past. In TW2 it's a passive experience and you just watch crudely drawn cartoons.
I liked the cartoons. In TW1 Geralt lost his memory. He doesn't remember most people, but pretty much everything else. After introducing themselves most people jabber on about stuff I, the player, don't know anything about (unless I've read all books) but Geralt seems to understand that all. It's usually completely out of context. 1/4 of the time I couldn't follow the story eventhough I read some of the books in my youth. In TW2 those problems are severely reduced, most information has more meat to it.

You also fail to mention that it is now a real action RPG/adventure and that the direct controls are far better suited to the genre than TW1's.
Hard to say. There is an animation delay and often trying to, say, throw a bomb will get you locked in place and killed. As an action RPG it's too story-driven, the character system is poorly thought through and too passive, the combat is too simplistic and easy, and the items distribution sucks.
Hmm? I thought you could maschine-gun enemies to death... :M I actually like the sluggishness for bombs, it makes sense to get some distance to the enemy. It bothered me with signs and blocking, though :x
Don't see the dichtonomy between aRPG and story-driven, though I prefer open exploration in general.
Again the problem with CDP choosing Geralt as protagonist. It doesn't make sense to close basic witcher stuff to him. I don't mind passives at all, but the balancing is shit, I agree with that. I don't find the combat too easy, it just gets too easy as you level up, but that's a problem for the 2nd half of the game, not for the whole. I'd even say the game is far too hard in the beginning. As for "simplistic", I see that again as a balancing issue not as a gameplay issue. If I compare it with my favourites, Gothic 2 and M&B, I don't see TW2 as especially simplistic.

No mention of other mini-bosses like the endregena queens, trolls, elementals, arachni, etc that require you to play the game well (at least without broken builds).
Well? All you have to do is press spacebar a lot. Attack twice and roll, attack twice and roll, cast your favourite spell, attack twice and roll... The game doesn't require ANY builds whatsofucking ever, which is a HUGE fucking problem.
Dodging is no magical "I win button", you can still be hit while dodging. You don't always get in two hits with the monsters. Without halfway decent positioning, you won't evade the monsters. Same with groups of enemies. They can block dodging. You have to watch them to make sure you evade them. I required a build. Without improved health and quen elementals, eg, would one-hit killed me.

Overall you give the impression that TW2 is just a dumbed down version of TW1 + EPIC story + awesome button = in codex words: banal, shit, boring.
It IS a dumbed down game. Most interviews suggest as much.
Sorry, I pretty much ignore the press.

But there are also improvements and some of the "dumbing down" is also actually an improvement (IMO eg: swordskills, controls, lack of "stances"). For the far superior gameplay alone I like TW2 far better than TW1. (Still not even close to even Gothic 3...)
How's the lack of stances an improvement? Controls? Not so sure. Swordskills are just passive bonuses. It's not like you learn new attacks. Even a group style has been replaced with a passive bonus.
I'll take active attacks over "stop, change stance, two hits, stop, change stance". Don't like the concept of stances, don't want them in my aRPG. Rest: see above.

And yes, despite the game's numerous flaws (some of which you failed to mention) and bad design decisions the game feels like a work of love.
Yes. When it comes to graphics. It's a beautiful, beautiful game. The rest is an attempt to bring the game to the fabled wider audience.
The rest is lots of small details that show the love that was put in. As for the wider audience: pretty sure they fucked that up with the difficulty in the beginning.

Best action-adventure/RPG since Risen.
The difference is that Risen puts you in control. The Witcher 2 grabs your hand and drags you through the game, while pretending that it's you who's making decisions.
Yep, but then I don't see that as being so much different from 80% of (a)RPGs in the last decade. And I'm not a c&c-fag, anyway. *shrug*
 
Joined
Oct 19, 2010
Messages
3,524
Glad I read this, even if it was not a proper review. Staying away from this game.

I do have one question, though.

What of the music? How does it compare to the predecessor and would it be worth acquiring to listen to outside of the game?
 

Storyfag

Perfidious Pole
Patron
Joined
Feb 17, 2011
Messages
18,015
Location
Stealth Orbital Nuke Control Centre
Excommunicator said:
Glad I read this, even if it was not a proper review. Staying away from this game.

Bad choice, man. Reviewers are derp with poor grasp of quests in this game, as pointed out by Roxor of all people.

Excommunicator said:
What of the music? How does it compare to the predecessor and would it be worth acquiring to listen to outside of the game?

The music is mostly banalshitboring. Not a single track can compare to TW1's awesomeness.
 

Dantus12

Educated
Joined
Oct 26, 2010
Messages
235
Wasn't really expecting this from the usually clear,analytical approach of the Codex.

Not that anyone gives a flying fuck about what I was expecting.

The strange part is that the humor of the article is unable to hide the nearly condescending view, seriously the game is not even good for what it is.
It nearly gets hit harder than DA2, not even a benefit of a doubt, and console mantras to no end.
This probably wasn't the intention, but the outsiders that are unaware of the Codexian approach will consider the game complete and utter shit.

So many negatives pointed out, and the positives intentionally dragged down to irrelevance, what again makes them negatives.
Good thing that I wasn't reading this before the 13.05, when my order was dispatched.
 

Vault Dweller

Commissar, Red Star Studio
Developer
Joined
Jan 7, 2003
Messages
28,046
Mastermind said:
You had to wait for the icon to flash to attack again, which was a throwback to turn-based games.

:retarded:
Can't into sarcasm?

Storyfag said:
Excommunicator said:
Glad I read this, even if it was not a proper review. Staying away from this game.

Bad choice, man. Reviewers are derp with poor grasp of quests in this game, as pointed out by Roxor of all people.
Pointed what out? That there was a simple way to finish the quest? Yeah, it fucking changes everything. Let's take a better look, shall we?

You're told about the guards disappearance. You see a group of people (guards and Malena) standing in front of a cave. No rush, because they can stand there for several days if they have to. You're asked to go inside and investigate. You go in, kill some monsters, find the bodies. Some text pops up and says that you have determined that they were killed by the elves. Zero skills involved. You go back and now you have 2 options: tell the truth or lie. If you tell the truth, Malena denies her involvement and asks for a chance to prove her innocence. At this point you have two options: say no and she'll be taken away, or say yes and she'll lead you into an ambush.

First, the option to say no simply ends the quest early. It doesn't change anything and it doesn't make the quest better. With this option the quest becomes nothing but "go into this cave, kill some complimentary monsters, reach the bodies and report". Second, the option is pointless because it doesn't change anything. It's a silly "I'm a dick" option for the sake of meaningless options. You don't know if the girl is involved. Just because some elves killed a few guards doesn't mean she had anything to do with it. You have no reasons to want to put her away, using this option, so why is it there?

This quest could have been a great way to give you an alternative way to establish contacts with the elves, but the game is way too story-driven for that.
 
Joined
Feb 19, 2011
Messages
385
commie said:
Vault Dweller said:
commie said:
Can't wait to post a Codexian review of AoD full of hearty lols about the shitty Mortal Combat finishing moves(something suitably snarky about being able to lift a guy over your head on a spear etc.). I'll have to make sure to also direct VoD to all the 'this game sucks' reviews from internet non-entities so he posts them as news.
No, please, not AoD. It will just hurt too much. I'll change, I promise. I... I take everything back. The Witcher 2 is an amazing game. And Dragon Age 2 wasn't as bad as I made it sound to be. I was just jealous that they've actually released something...

Well behave then. A review of mine in the vein of yours would knock 5-10 sales from your projections, effectively halving your potential revenue. :smug:


Nice try to link DA2 to me though as if I liked it or something. Funny thing is that the crude 3D and shit brown palette of DA2 is a lot closer to the art style of AoD than it is to TW2. Lots of 'awesum' death animations in both games too.

commie said:
If the game [AoD] is only 1/10th of what it promises to be I'll still buy it, making it the first indie title I've ever owned.

http://www.rpgcodex.net/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=61479
 
Joined
May 6, 2009
Messages
1,876,838
Location
Glass Fields, Ruins of Old Iran
felipepepe said:
Vault Dweller said:
Because some people liked the game and wanted to read a nice review that praises the game while pointing at minor issues to be "balanced and unbiased."
I never got that, why people need other people telling them the game they played and liked is good? They know they are Untermensch, so they don't take their own opinion into account? They feel ashamed of liking a game that people say its bad?

It's not a matter of shame, but pride. It's the same reason that guy raged so hard when Bubble Bobble beat Halo in that poll Gamespot had.
 

Vault Dweller

Commissar, Red Star Studio
Developer
Joined
Jan 7, 2003
Messages
28,046
Dantus12 said:
The strange part is that the humor of the article is unable to hide the nearly condescending view, seriously the game is not even good for what it is.
People were bitching about the "condescending view" since the very first review was posted. "So, you like NWN and think it's the greatest game ever? Well, let me tell what I think about this piece of shit..."

It nearly gets hit harder than DA2, not even a benefit of a doubt, and console mantras to no end.
This probably wasn't the intention, but the outsiders that are unaware of the Codexian approach will consider the game complete and utter shit.
Why? Didn't we mention how pretty the game is?

So many negatives pointed out, and the positives intentionally dragged down to irrelevance, what again makes them negatives.
That's one way of looking at it. The other would be that the game isn't too heavy on the positives. But it's very, very pretty. Breathtakingly gorgeous.
 

Crooked Bee

(no longer) a wide-wandering bee
Patron
Joined
Jan 27, 2010
Messages
15,048
Location
In quarantine
Codex 2013 Codex 2014 PC RPG Website of the Year, 2015 Codex 2016 - The Age of Grimoire MCA Serpent in the Staglands Dead State Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Wasteland 2 Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 BattleTech Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire
Vault Dweller said:
Pointed what out? That there was a simple way to finish the quest? Yeah, it fucking changes everything. Let's take a better look, shall we?

You're told about the guards disappearance. You see a group of people (guards and Malena) standing in front of a cave. No rush, because they can stand there for several days if they have to. You're asked to go inside and investigate. You go in, kill some monsters, find the bodies. Some text pops up and says that you have determined that they were killed by the elves. Zero skills involved. You go back and now you have 2 options: tell the truth or lie. If you tell the truth, Malena denies her involvement and asks for a chance to prove her innocence. At this point you have two options: say no and she'll be taken away, or say yes and she'll lead you into an ambush.

First, the option to say no simply ends the quest early. It doesn't change anything and it doesn't make the quest better. With this option the quest becomes nothing but "go into this cave, kill some complimentary monsters, reach the bodies and report". Second, the option is pointless because it doesn't change anything. It's a silly "I'm a dick" option for the sake of meaningless options. You don't know if the girl is involved. Just because some elves killed a few guards doesn't mean she had anything to do with it. You have no reasons to want to put her away, using this option, so why is it there?

Wasn't there also an option to somehow discover that it was Loredo's men who were killing soldiers there with Scoiatel arrows in order to frame the elves? Like, the trapdoor was actually leading inside Loredo's house or something? Or is my memory playing tricks on me?
 

Storyfag

Perfidious Pole
Patron
Joined
Feb 17, 2011
Messages
18,015
Location
Stealth Orbital Nuke Control Centre
Vault Dweller said:
First, the option to say no simply ends the quest early. It doesn't change anything

I find the two statements mutually exclusive :smug:
And it changes more. It allows you to avoid the whole ambush thing, thus changing the gameplay :troll:

Crooked Bee said:
Vault Dweller said:
Pointed what out? That there was a simple way to finish the quest? Yeah, it fucking changes everything. Let's take a better look, shall we?

You're told about the guards disappearance. You see a group of people (guards and Malena) standing in front of a cave. No rush, because they can stand there for several days if they have to. You're asked to go inside and investigate. You go in, kill some monsters, find the bodies. Some text pops up and says that you have determined that they were killed by the elves. Zero skills involved. You go back and now you have 2 options: tell the truth or lie. If you tell the truth, Malena denies her involvement and asks for a chance to prove her innocence. At this point you have two options: say no and she'll be taken away, or say yes and she'll lead you into an ambush.

First, the option to say no simply ends the quest early. It doesn't change anything and it doesn't make the quest better. With this option the quest becomes nothing but "go into this cave, kill some complimentary monsters, reach the bodies and report". Second, the option is pointless because it doesn't change anything. It's a silly "I'm a dick" option for the sake of meaningless options. You don't know if the girl is involved. Just because some elves killed a few guards doesn't mean she had anything to do with it. You have no reasons to want to put her away, using this option, so why is it there?

Wasn't there also an option to somehow discover that it was Loredo's men who were killing soldiers there with Scoiatel arrows in order to frame the elves? Like, the trapdoor was actually leading inside Loredo's house or something? Or is my memory playing tricks on me?

The trapdoor is there, and it does lead into Loredo's garden. It is, however, locked and to my knowledge the key that opens it does not exist. I've also never found any evidence of foul play on Loredo's part in this regard... MAYBE Geralt is more observant if you talk to first Zoltan about Loredo wanting to turn humans against nonhumans and then do the quest.
 

Vault Dweller

Commissar, Red Star Studio
Developer
Joined
Jan 7, 2003
Messages
28,046
@ Crooked Bee:

Yes and no.

There was a ladder in the cave leading to a locked trapdoor. Since Geralt can't into lockpicking, you have no choice but to leave it alone. Later you can discover that the trapdoor is inside Loredo's compound, which led people to see hidden depth and imagine that it was Loredo.

Some issues with this theory:

First, don't you think that killing his own men a few steps away from his secret ladder is stupid? If they wanted to make a quest where you could either condemn an innocent on circumstantial evidence or dig deeper and find the real culprit, it was handled very poorly. Like I said, in its core, it's a kill some monsters and then some elves quest with a few dialogues line and a surprising discovery. Most likely they've decided to add a ladder later on for extra depth.

Second, since you can't confront Laredo about it and Malena did have a fondness for leading humans into ambushes, the discovery is pointless and serves no purpose.
 

el Supremo

Augur
Patron
Joined
Jan 1, 2011
Messages
560
Location
City 13
Enjoy the Revolution! Another revolution around the sun that is.
Tormented Seph said:
7 --- Why the Iorveth Path is more coherent (with the "Witcher's Code") than the Roche Path?

This I find an interesting statement, as my own feelings were exactly opposite. While I liked the Iorveth path's quests more, I cannot imagine why Geralt would folow a bunch of murderous elves all of the sudden. And fighting on the walls of the Verden, I, as a witcher, felt being really out of place. There shoud be an option to say "It is not my fight, bye, I'll be on my way".

As for the review, VD once prised the unplayable turd that Gothic 3 is. I guess VD's (and VoD's) taste is incompatible with mine.
There are some such a reviewers in SF and fantasy books genere, people whose opinions I somewhat respect, in spite of having exactly opposite taste. I mean, shitty book (or game) is shitty. No one is going to give it a second look. But if certain reviewers take theirs valuable time to bash the book (or the game), it sometimes means I would love it.

The funny thing is, while i agree with many point of the review, I still consider it the second best RPG game I have ever played (just after Gothic 2).
 

Crooked Bee

(no longer) a wide-wandering bee
Patron
Joined
Jan 27, 2010
Messages
15,048
Location
In quarantine
Codex 2013 Codex 2014 PC RPG Website of the Year, 2015 Codex 2016 - The Age of Grimoire MCA Serpent in the Staglands Dead State Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Wasteland 2 Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 BattleTech Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire
@ Storyfag & VD

Alright, thanks, I guess I just read some speculation somewhere and it got imprinted on my memory. And yes, I agree that, as the quest stands, the discovery would've been pointless in any case. Either the quest was rushed or they indeed decided to add the trapdoor as an afterthought.
 

As an Amazon Associate, rpgcodex.net earns from qualifying purchases.
Back
Top Bottom