4X Old World - historical 4X strategy by Civ 4 designer (formerly 10 Crowns)

[covr]

I've been checking on this every two months and it is an amazing 4X game, almost on the level of Civ4 with expansions. I hope it gets more biomes with some DLC's

 

[Catacombs]

Unfortunately only on the Epic store for now.

Waiting for Steam release

 

[LESS T_T]

Seeing the announcement of World War Z: Aftermath reminded me, this game probably won't come to Steam, ever.

This, along with World War Z, is one of the few games reportedly did lifetime exclusivity deal with Epic. Kinda understandable considering that they were left with multi-million debt after the fall of their former publisher Starbreeze. Epic probably helped them pay the debt and funded some portion of the development.

Saber did a trick by releasing World War Z: Aftermath, practically an expansion of World War Z, on Steam. I'm not sure if Soren Johnson, probably less of a businessman, will try the same thing, but who knows.

 

[Joggerino]

I accidentally found out about this. Should release today and it looks really good. Certainly better than "humankind"

 

[JarlFrank]

Seeing the announcement of World War Z: Aftermath reminded me, this game probably won't come to Steam, ever.

This, along with World War Z, is one of the few games reportedly did lifetime exclusivity deal with Epic. Kinda understandable considering that they were left with multi-million debt after the fall of their former publisher Starbreeze. Epic probably helped them pay the debt and funded some portion of the development.

Saber did a trick by releasing World War Z: Aftermath, practically an expansion of World War Z, on Steam. I'm not sure if Soren Johnson, probably less of a businessman, will try the same thing, but who knows.

Guess I'll just pirate it then.

Fuck Epic and their exclusivity deals. They can go suck a dick.

 

[Maxie]

This excellent game is getting released July 1st. Unfortunately only on the Epic store for now.

Highly recommend the game though.

who the fuck thought ck2 simsfaggotry is what was needed in civ

 

[Joggerino]

It's probably a much simpler mechanic than what we have in ck2.

 

[Beowulf]

It's probably a much simpler mechanic than what we have in ck2.

Very likely, from what we've seen so far.
But on the other hand, it's a far better empire builder.

 

[Starwars]

It's not as in-depth as ck, no. You can also turn all that off in the options and play it like, well, just a 4x game so to speak.

Might be better for some people as the events/dynasty layer does add some randomness to the game, which might feel problematic if you're really into just optimizing your playstyle.

 

[spectre]

I like how a lot of the stuff in this game just flows naturally and logically. You see a forest or scrub nearby? Chop it down for resources and let it grow back naturally.
Want to train units? Spend a fuckload of that military resource thing. Or, build them a barracks to train, or send them out to fight. You'll get a discount with exp.

It's not as in-depth as ck, no. You can also turn all that off in the options and play it like, well, just a 4x game so to speak.
Might be better for some people as the events/dynasty layer does add some randomness to the game, which might feel problematic if you're really into just optimizing your playstyle.

I was thinking about turning it off entirely, decided not to just yet. Figured it intertwines with the rest of the game's systems so much it'll probably break the game.
On the upside, it does is prevent "empty" turns you know from Civ etc., where you just click through the "end turn" button waiting for a bar to fill.

One problem I have with this is that the whole dynasty layer is simply distracting, while I'm not entirely sure you're getting enough bang for micromanaging it,
especially when sometimes you're just one roll away from your prized heir getting a bad trait, instead of a good one. Granted, I've barely scratched the surface on the game's mechanics,
but I think the idea is that even these bad traits can lead to useful random encounters so it all evens out in the long run.
If so, my problem would be this: if it evens out in the end, it only serves to muddle the waters.

This uddling the waters would probably my biggest complaint about this game, though it may be due to my lack of experience. So far, playing a bit with a few factions,
there wasn't much of a difference between them. In fact, the biggest differentiating factor between playthroughs seems to be the pool of available families and which three you pick.

While the interface does a pretty good job at being informative and making sure you don't miss important shit, one thing I'm still coming to terms with is how each family has their own icon and colors,
spawning characters, cities and units with the same color scheme. Given that you typically have three of those, it further adds to the visual clutter on the screen.

 

[Starwars]

The game is definitely "muddled" by the character system and all of that. Given that it spawns a lot of randomness in the game. I think one has to go into it expecting that, while the mechanics are pretty damn tight, you will never be able to plan out a perfect game so to speak. Sometimes the game overtly rewards you, sometimes it will punish you etc etc. If someone is completely adverse to that, then it will likely ruin quite a bit of the game.
Overall, I really like the flavour it brings though there are certain events that can happen in a game that I'm not fond of how they're designed. I don't think the balance is perfect, or even close to it to be honest, but I find it to be very enjoyable most of the time. And I like that it makes the game its own unique thing. But one definitely has to be on board with the whole "roleplaying aspect" of it, and the fact that it does interrupt the pure 4x experience so to speak.
Most games I try to play optimally, but there is some fun to be had to roleplay the leader a little according to their traits as well.

The families and which 3 you pick is definitely a bigger choice than which nation you decide to start with. I'd agree that the interface can feel cluttered at times but I got used to it pretty quickly and I prefer the information being "up front". Most of it does matter in some way, such as what family a particular unit is a part of. I love the interface overall.

 

[cvv]

Uff, I'm put off by the dynasty system something fierce. I'm still scarred and traumatized since that time when a buddy made me try CK2. What a bunch of vapid faggoty BS, no wonder it's so popular in this day and age.

I think imma follow Tubers and streamers carefully before I jump in. And maybe wait a year for a more balanced experience, hopefully on Steam or GOG.

 

[Starwars]

What a bunch of vapid faggoty BS, no wonder it's so popular in this day and age.

I think imma follow Tubers and streamers carefully before I jump in.

 

[Zboj Lamignat]

So, apart from the "dynasty layer", does this game differ significantly from nu-civ? Cause it looks like nu-civ, just with less fidelity but not completely shit-tier art direction. Which seems pretty meh.

 

[Joggerino]

I like how a lot of the stuff in this game just flows naturally and logically. You see a forest or scrub nearby? Chop it down for resources and let it grow back naturally.
Want to train units? Spend a fuckload of that military resource thing. Or, build them a barracks to train, or send them out to fight. You'll get a discount with exp.

It's not as in-depth as ck, no. You can also turn all that off in the options and play it like, well, just a 4x game so to speak.
Might be better for some people as the events/dynasty layer does add some randomness to the game, which might feel problematic if you're really into just optimizing your playstyle.

I was thinking about turning it off entirely, decided not to just yet. Figured it intertwines with the rest of the game's systems so much it'll probably break the game.
On the upside, it does is prevent "empty" turns you know from Civ etc., where you just click through the "end turn" button waiting for a bar to fill.

One problem I have with this is that the whole dynasty layer is simply distracting, while I'm not entirely sure you're getting enough bang for micromanaging it,
especially when sometimes you're just one roll away from your prized heir getting a bad trait, instead of a good one. Granted, I've barely scratched the surface on the game's mechanics,
but I think the idea is that even these bad traits can lead to useful random encounters so it all evens out in the long run.
If so, my problem would be this: if it evens out in the end, it only serves to muddle the waters.

This uddling the waters would probably my biggest complaint about this game, though it may be due to my lack of experience. So far, playing a bit with a few factions,
there wasn't much of a difference between them. In fact, the biggest differentiating factor between playthroughs seems to be the pool of available families and which three you pick.

While the interface does a pretty good job at being informative and making sure you don't miss important shit, one thing I'm still coming to terms with is how each family has their own icon and colors,
spawning characters, cities and units with the same color scheme. Given that you typically have three of those, it further adds to the visual clutter on the screen.

And what do you think of the game overall? Is it better than civ5?

 

[spectre]

Being less shitty than the nu-civs is not exactly a high bar, but at the moment it gives me a much better first impression than CiV and CiVI.
It's a bit like playing CiV locked to the ancient era with some autistic mod (that I need to figure out) and a bit of CK2 slapped on top.

Unfortunately, at some point during a playthrough, I just get tired of all the fucking popups.
Yes the prinz knocked out someone's teeth out during training, don't wait on me to find a fuck to give.
Hatshepsut's daughter was being an ass to her Ma at a party.
You must decide, who do you like more Persia or Rome?
Oh, and there's a guy out there who needs to get married... ffs, just fuck off with this shit and let me do the ruling.
I guess the game wants to drive the point home how being the king is a hell of a thing.
To be fair, there's an option in the menu to tone this down, as well as a bunch of other things.
I just might, but I wanted to see how the game plays out "as designed".

Speaking of which, I tried turning off the entire CK bit (turn off characters was the option, I think), and the game became.. weird.
Soulless and gutted that's how I'd describe it, especially since I played a few games beforehand. I think the CK bits are just too ingrained in the system.
As a matter of fact, it felt a lot like playing CiV this way, and I wasn't really on board for this.

One thing that really rubs me the wrong way about the scale is how units just zip around the map due to the orders system.
(as long as you have orders (a type of special resource) left, you can move around a unit a few times, until it gets "exhausted")
I'm all for a bit of maneuvering, but it feels a bit a bit too flexible when axemen and slingers just pop out out of nowhere.
The scale is different from CiV, lot more space between cities and it there's a bit of getting use to, etc. etc., but so far
it feels a bit like Civ4 endgame with railroads everywhere.

 

[Joggerino]

I think the popups are supposed to have some profound in-game effect later on. I'll try the game myself soon

 

[Infinitron]

https://www.pcgamer.com/uk/old-world-review/

OLD WORLD REVIEW
Mohawk Games has made a historical 4X that feels like the future.

The story of my first campaign in Old World, where I led my Greek civilisation to global domination, is equally the story of Rome, my greatest nemesis in this sprawling turn-based 4X. When I first encountered the Romans, they were extremely friendly, offering us gifts and hospitality, but it was a poisoned chalice—quite literally. A sickness spread, and Roman gestures of friendship were the source. I demanded justice and compensation; Rome only wanted war. It would take nearly 200 years until I got my revenge.

It was not a single continuous war. The first conflict ended without much resolution, with the distance between our empires and the massive mountain chain that separated us creating some logistical difficulties. There were still battles, certainly, costing both of us more than faceless soldiers. Family members, revered generals and close friends also lost their lives. And between the wars were heated diplomatic meetings and more than a little bit of espionage, which again cost lives.

I'll never forgive myself for sending my good pal Confucious, the Chinese philosopher, to infiltrate Roma, where he spent a couple of years before he was murdered. On more than one occasion, I even sacrificed my heirs to the eternal grudge. It's rather fitting that, after all that loss and rage, the fall of the Roman Empire also marked my victory over Old World itself. But I'm getting ahead of myself.

Despite using the language of Civilization—from workers to wonders— it should be starting to become clear that Soren Johnson and Mohawk Games' take on the historical 4X formula is quite different to Firaxis's approach. You still build cities, conquer other ones, develop the tiles around them, and along the way determine the cultural and scientific destiny of your civilisation. So there are plenty of important similarities, which should not be a surprise given that Johnson was also the lead designer of Civilization 4, but Old World feels like a meaningful evolution. And an extremely welcome one.

Something old, something new
The most notable advancement is undoubtedly the importance placed on people. Like Crusader Kings, you are not an immortal ruler leading your people from the birth of civilisation all the way to the space race and beyond. Instead, your famous starting ruler will eventually die. When Philip II left this mortal coil, the empire passed to his son, Alexander, who'd become known as Alexander the Noble—sadly he didn't do enough to earn the 'Great' moniker—who then left it to his daughter, 40 years later. You've got heirs and succession laws to worry about, as well as a court full of potential friends and enemies.

As the name suggests, Old World sticks to antiquity, slowing down Civilization's pace to allow characters to make an impression. It would be pretty tough to do that if every turn moved things forward by decades. Your friends and enemies will be hanging around for a long time, as long as something untoward doesn't happen to them.

These courtiers, generals and other important folk grow and react, increasing their attributes to become more charismatic or disciplined while also picking up traits like 'wanton' and 'schemer'. They have affairs, illegitimate children, and can plot the demise of other characters, including the ruler. In the mid-game, I found myself playing a particularly talented king, beloved by his people and the triumvirate of influential families constantly vying for power and attention. His uncle, however, was decidedly not a fan. Years before, when I was playing as his father, I encouraged certain unpleasant traits in my son, which benefited me at the time. I had no idea I was creating a nephew-killer. When it came time to reap what I'd sowed, I had some regrets.

Much of this plays out through engaging event pop-ups, typically giving you multiple options that depend on your traits and resources. You get to decide how children are educated, how you react to a diplomatic insult or what to do with the possibly magical sword that was just dug up—I opted for starting a cult and charging them admission to see the fancy blade. Often, you won't see the impact for years, so there's always a surprise around the corner.

This all contributes to a sense that you are truly shaping your own civilisation, and in ways that go beyond changing some stats. Slavery, for instance, crops up in both Old World and Civilization, but how it impacts both games is quite different. In Civ 4, for instance, it lets you sacrifice part of your population to rush a construction project. In Old World, however, it becomes a topic that's up for debate. You might find that your people have come to their senses and want to abolish it, encouraging you to toss out the grotesque institution.

If only the UI did a good job of keeping track of this stuff. It can be jarring to go from the flavourful event text to the abstract, soulless numbers that the UI boils them down to. It's overwhelming, and it's just not that informative. Every interaction is made a little worse because it necessitates faffing around in discrete, counterintuitive menus that drag you all over the screen. Even after winning my first campaign, I still found myself getting occasionally lost, and I still don't know how to find crucial information on things like the spread of religion. The tutorial and encyclopaedia are also little help, choosing brevity and vagueness over clear instructions. There's so much more context and clarity in the event text, so I wish Old World's writers were a bit more involved in designing the interface, which could definitely benefit from their skills.

Alone, the events and characters would have been enough to grab my attention. Civilization and Crusader Kings are two of the greats, and combining their philosophies leads to a game that feels tailor made to my interests. But Old World is filled with new ideas and ways of doing things, dramatically changing how you forge a lasting empire.

Every unit has a specific movement range and room for one action per turn, but without Orders they can't do anything. Orders are a resource that you spend on giving units and characters—like your ambassador or spymaster—commands. Move here. Attack this loser. Steal research from this dork. As you start expanding and fielding more troops, workers and missionaries, you'll find yourself having to prioritise where to spend Orders each turn so that you don't find your tank is empty right when you're about to make a critical move. It's a strategic complication, but sometimes it can actually take the pressure off you. The system teaches you that it's OK to not take action this turn. You don't need to do everything in one go—you've got 200 years to kill.

Orders are tied to Legitimacy, with a higher Legitimacy generating more Orders per turn. It's another abstract resource, spawning yet another wrinkle. See, you improve the legitimacy of your reign by generally being insular, promoting national unity and the people of your chosen Civilization above all else. Often, this means you have to treat foreigners with suspicion and take a 'strong' stance that will make the rest of the world rightly think you're a dickhead. It reflects how real leaders sometimes fan the flames of national fervour and encourage small-minded attitudes.

You can, thankfully, still be an extremely effective ruler without pandering to the worst aspects of national identity. Some buildings—which, I should add, are constructed by workers rather than from the city menu, letting you embark on several construction projects at the same time—generate small amounts of Legitimacy that, over time, can give you a significant boost. That's something Old World excels at: always giving you more ways to achieve your objectives. Resource management is another example. On top of the abstract stuff, there's also more tangible resources like stone, iron, wood and gold, which are required for trade and, more importantly, construction. It's a hungry game that demands a healthy stockpile. If you're running low, however, you can simply spend gold to buy more; if you're out of gold, you can also sell whatever resource is abundant.

Friends with benefits
When your larder is looking a little sparse, you can also seek help from your fellow rulers. The focus on people benefits the diplomacy system immensely, as these are personal relationships that you're developing. Friendships with foreign leaders can be completely undone by the way an event plays out, but as always there are plenty of opportunities to repair the damage. More so in the late game, however, once you've unlocked the ability to employ an ambassador. Or you can just use espionage to steal from them. Sometimes the prerequisites do feel a bit restrictive, though, like alliances only being possible if you've got a diplomatically inclined leader.

If diplomacy fails, you might find yourself heading to war. Combat is one of the places that feels most evocative of modern Civilization, which is unfortunate, because frankly I'm getting a bit bored of moving all these units around one by one, surrounding cities and slowly battering enemies. That's not to say it hasn't been improved, mind. For one, there's the undo move (or even turn) ability, which is such a blessing. You can undo literally everything in a turn, from declaring war on another nation to moving a unit. You'll never find yourself making unsalvageable mistakes from a misclick or miscalculation. You can also recruit generals from your court, which may have extremely handy abilities, like being able to heal units even in neutral territory.

The AI is generally pretty good, too. A bit too risk averse on the default difficulty, maybe, but also smarter and more reactive. Enemies will retreat to heal up, take advantage of your weaknesses or injured units, and are less likely to be baited into obvious traps. We're not talking tactical geniuses here, but logical, rational enemies are still a boon. Unfortunately, it's still not great at capturing cities. It's just a bit slow and sometimes underprepared, but it gets there eventually.

Throughout my time with Old World I kept coming across things that made me think "Why the heck hasn't Civ done this?" It has solutions to so many 4X niggles that have been around for ages. Take research, for instance. When you choose your next research project, the game produces a few offerings from a deck made up of all the stuff you're ready to discover. So instead of picking from the same list over and over again, it's slightly randomised, and alongside new techs are bonus cards that give you free gifts, like an extra unit or a big pile of resources. If you're in the middle of a war, do you really care about unlocking the magical power of mills? Instead, you can spend a turn or two on getting a free spearman, which will be much more useful in the moment.

It's a shame it peters out a bit towards the end. The victory conditions, frankly, kinda suck, and mostly go unexplained. The primary method of winning is by earning 52 points before 200 years have passed, which you do by nurturing your cities and building wonders. If nobody gets to 52, the highest wins. You can also get an early win if you double the points of the next nation, but only if you're already halfway to 52. Finally, you can just wipe everyone out. It's all a bit perfunctory, and a lot more gamey than I expected. I was lucky that my first win happened right as I finally conquered my nemesis Rome, because without that it wouldn't have been remotely memorable.

Despite its understated victories, Old World is a brilliant 4X, and one that I'd actually recommend over Civilization at the moment. It feels like a genuine step forward for the genre, boasting so many inventive, smart design decisions. And I can't believe I've reached the end of the review before even mentioning the exceptional soundtrack from composer Christopher Tin. Civ 4's Baba Yetu might still be my favourite of his pieces, but Old World is full of evocative orchestral and choral compositions. There's a lot to love here, and if you've got an itch to conquer the ancient world you absolutely need to give this a shot.

THE VERDICT
87

OLD WORLD
A clever spiritual successor to Civilization full of both novelties and big ideas.

 

[Joggerino]

I almost trashed the game for poor performance. Then i found out a process which shouldn't have anything to do with the game was starting with it and using 50% of my CPU. And finally i found out some fucking asshole embedded a coin miner into the codex installer.

 

[TemplarGR]

I had tried the early access a few months ago, tried again the release version today, not really impressed. Not bad, but nothing special either. The PC Gamer review is a joke. This better than Civ VI? Get out of here. You can hate Civ VI all you want, but when you say Old World is better, you are just pathetic.

 

[Starwars]

I almost trashed the game for poor performance. Then i found out a process which shouldn't have anything to do with the game was starting with it and using 50% of my CPU. And finally i found out some fucking asshole embedded a coin miner into the codex installer.

To be honest, I think the performance does need improving. There are some bits of the game that just doesn't run well (certain UI elements in the late game for example) and should've been fixed for the main release.

It's perfectly playable for me now but it could and should have been better.

 

[Joggerino]

Well i had enough.. The pace is really slow, and nothing really excites me here. The orders system doesn't really improve the gameplay. You tech reaches at most the early middle ages so your civilization doesn't change much throughout the game. The combat is ok, pretty offense focused. Having more units and out maneuvering the enemy is key. For some reason every single religion in the game spawned in my cities?? I collected 5 or 6, no idea what happened there. The whole improvements stuff is similar to civ6, with adjacency and other bonuses. I don't really like that system. Map is pretty.
Goodbye Old World.

 

[Gamezor]

I pirated this and gave it a shot for 50 turns, but kinda bouncing off it. The characters and all the popups detract from the overall gameplay and systems, but I can imagine Spectre is right and it would be weird and souless without it. It's a pain in the ass tracking all the families and relationships and what not, and the pop ups are annoying pretty fast. I did like the overall design of the systems, resources, how everything interacts, but it's annoying to play. It would probably be sheer hell to be min maxing.

 

[covr]

This is a fantastic and a very deep game, a true homage to lat '90 gaming when devs were not afraid of experiment and complexity. I haven't played this more than a couple of minutes since 2020 and gave it a couple of hours yesterday. The game has developed vastly since early access. It feels complete now, in almost every aspect. It is a demanding product, not for ones expecting cheap and quick pleasure - you need to invest some time to learn the basics and to understand the differences between your usual 'Civ-like' routine vs how does The Old World should be played. And it should be taken slowly, with a glass of good wine or something stronger. With a clear head and...who knows, maybe a bit of larping/role playing. As Gamezor mentioned - this is not a product for mini-maxers, which makes the game difficult to approach for competitive players.

It might be a superb base for next games/dlc's. I can imagine it during the 10th Century of middle Europe. Or during the WWI. Or even a sci-fi/fantasy game.
Right now it needs some more biomes, different landscapes and possibly some major events, changing the nature and predictability of gameplay.

 

[Gamezor]

I now find myself wanting to keep going with it. I just don’t like the way they did the ck lite elements at all but I do like the randomness it provides. Just don’t like the pop up, longish fluff text, and then usually not very important decision. It breaks the whole one more turn flow for me. And I do not want to track all these damn people. I want to like it more than I do.