Path of Exile is a MAJESTIC incline

[Blaine]

I always thought that Pay2Win is rather when you can buy something for real money that you can't get playing the game...

Like stash tabs?

...and that thing makes you more powerfull than those who did not buy it.

Such as more and better gear for your characters a lot more quickly?

Every person who defends pay-to-win systems usually manages to twist the facts until it comes down to: "You're not paying to win, you're paying to save time." It's for this exact reason that the majority of free-to-play games include such a loophole. It might take you five or ten times longer to get X than someone who paid, but you can still get it eventually, so it's not pay-to-win... right? Depends on who you ask. In my opinion, being able to generate several times more wealth than someone who's "only" paid, say, $50 is absurd.

 

[Stereotypical Villain]

 

[hoverdog]

boy, someone is seriously butthurt.

I always thought that Pay2Win is rather when you can buy something for real money that you can't get playing the game...

Like stash tabs?

So you don't have any stash tabs without paying?

Again, I reiterate, this is not a case of pay-to-win. This is a case of pay-to-comfort. You can have multiple accounts with multiple mules (which GGG stated is permissible), additional, paid tabs are just easier to use.

 

[Damned Registrations]

You keep saying several times more wealth but the reality is that what you're paying for is a couple percentage points of efficacy. It's not like players with stash tabs are running around hitting things twice as hard, with twice as much hp and taking half as much damage. It's an advantage, but it's a small one. Currency in a game like this is not the same as currency in a game like Civilization, where it relates to power in a linear fashion. The price of items increases exponentially with their rarity. 5x the cost is a blip on the power scale if you're at the endgame. You could twink out 5 times as many characters, but you can't get 5 times better items on your main character. You're not going to rocket past any long standing players on an existing server, or accrue any significant benefit on a new server where high level gear is harder to come by than orbs. You're not going to win a PvP match with 5% more damage when you both die in 8 hits and have radically different fighting methods.

What you're bitching about is essentially that the paid players get to have the best items as status symbols while you have to use their 1% worse handmedowns. And even then, if you want a status symbol you can win a race and get actual rare unique shit instead of stuff that anyone can buy or farm for.

 

[IDtenT]

Again, I reiterate, this is not a case of pay-to-win. This is a case of pay-to-comfort. You can have multiple accounts with multiple mules (which GGG stated is permissible), additional, paid tabs are just easier to use.

Which is exactly what all F2P games should strive for. Sell vanity items and things that decreases the amount of time you need to spend in the game. And only that.

Every person who defends pay-to-win systems usually manages to twist the facts until it comes down to: "You're not paying to win, you're paying to save time." It's for this exact reason that the majority of free-to-play games include such a loophole. It might take you five or ten times longer to get X than someone who paid, but you can still get it eventually, so it's not pay-to-win... right? Depends on who you ask.

How else should they be making money? How else do they attract working people that do not have time, but do have money? It's win-win for everyone. This is as long as the things you pay for go at about the rate of less than minimum wage.

It's the classical time vs. money argument - and it works.

 

[Blaine]

So you don't have any stash tabs without paying?

Again, I reiterate, this is not a case of pay-to-win. This is a case of pay-to-comfort. You can have multiple accounts with multiple mules (which GGG stated is permissible), additional, paid tabs are just easier to use.

Obnoxious inconvenience is a hallmark of pay-to-win systems. Fucking around with twenty or more different accounts and multiple clients isn't a reasonable alternative.

Use whichever apologist euphemism suits your fancy—pay-to-comfort, pay-to-not-grind, pay-to-not-fuck-around-with-twenty-different-accounts, whatever. In any case, whether or not it's actually pay-to-win is beside the point, from my perspective: I find the crafting system obnoxious, and I feel that necessitating so many tabs to maintain an "orb farm" is unreasonable.

 

[Livonya]

The stash tabs are stupid. Wealth is ridiculous and meaningless in PoE.

The competitive part of PoE will be in the 3 hour, 1 week, and 2 week races. Wealth doesn't matter. I got like 21st or 22nd in one of the 2 week competitions and didn't even use all the free currency items I got because I stopped playing in the regular leagues.

PoE isn't like D3. PoE is about starting NEW characters all the time in special races, leagues, and competitions. Having the best items will NOT make any difference in any of these competitions because you have to start from scratch. These competitions are about knowing the game, knowing the items, and working with what you find. Your wealth doesn't matter, your reflexes, and knowledge of the game is what matters.

Hell, I never even played a character that wasn't in a race unless I was practicing for a race.

The game is way more dynamic than D3 and I think the strength of PoE is in the short duration races.

I agree that stash tabs is an advantage in the open part of the game, but that simply isn't where the real competition will be.

PoE is designed for short time frame competitions and the stash tabs issue simply does not play a part in these competitions.

So if you are competitive then chances are you won't even care about the normal leagues.

I never bought an extra stash tab and it never made any difference what-so-ever with regards to the competitive aspects of PoE.

Seriously, if you are at all concerned with competition then you don't need to worry about the stash tabs.

 

[hoverdog]

blah blah blah. You say as though it wouldn't take an unreasonable amount to time to farm all those orbs otherwise.

 

[Zdzisiu]

I always thought that Pay2Win is rather when you can buy something for real money that you can't get playing the game...

Like stash tabs?

...and that thing makes you more powerfull than those who did not buy it.

Such as more and better gear for your characters a lot more quickly?

Every person who defends pay-to-win systems usually manages to twist the facts until it comes down to: "You're not paying to win, you're paying to save time." It's for this exact reason that the majority of free-to-play games include such a loophole. It might take you five or ten times longer to get X than someone who paid, but you can still get it eventually, so it's not pay-to-win... right? Depends on who you ask. In my opinion, being able to generate several times more wealth than someone who's "only" paid, say, $50 is absurd.

Do you fear that you wont be the Ultimate Best Badass in the server because there always will be somebody who paid more and got more stash tabs and can produce regals faster?

And even with all the regals in the world, you cant create gear, you need to trade for it, and for that there need to be somebody who has that gear and is willing to sell it to you for as many orbs as he see fit. And if there is a sizable number of players just creating those regals they will be less and less valuable. We cant really compare this to the situation in closed beta now because everybody knows that there will be wipe, gear is quite meaningless and creating a lot of regals would be a waste of time. This will change after the last wipe, when stuff will be pernament and there will be sense in going through troubles to get good gear.

 

[IDtenT]

Use whichever apologist euphemism suits your fancy—pay-to-comfort, pay-to-not-grind, pay-to-not-fuck-around-with-twenty-different-accounts, whatever. In any case, whether or not it's actually pay-to-win is beside the point, from my perspective: I find the crafting system obnoxious, and I feel that necessitating so many tabs to maintain an "orb farm" is unreasonable.

As I stated earlier, the crafting recipes are also obnoxiously elaborate, and even if I were willing to pay I have little desire to accumulate and tabulate a warehouse full of junk.

So pay-to-win is a time-intensive path that you're not no sane person is willing to take? Gotcha.

To add on that, you actually want a paying system that conveniences you more than just extra tabs? How exactly are you arguing against pay-to-win?

This is eerily similar to you saying that other space game is not p2w, even though you got a unique ship in the process.

 

[Blaine]

The stash tabs are stupid. Wealth is ridiculous and meaningless in PoE.

The competitive part of PoE will be in the 3 hour, 1 week, and 2 week races. Wealth doesn't matter. I got like 21st or 22nd in one of the 2 week competitions and didn't even use all the free currency items I got because I stopped playing in the regular leagues.

PoE isn't like D3. PoE is about starting NEW characters all the time in special races, leagues, and competitions. Having the best items will NOT make any difference in any of these competitions because you have to start from scratch. These competitions are about knowing the game, knowing the items, and working with what you find. Your wealth doesn't matter, your reflexes, and knowledge of the game is what matters.

Hell, I never even played a character that wasn't in a race unless I was practicing for a race.

The game is way more dynamic than D3 and I think the strength of PoE is in the short duration races.

I agree that stash tabs is an advantage in the open part of the game, but that simply isn't where the real competition will be.

PoE is designed for short time frame competitions and the stash tabs issue simply does not play a part in these competitions.

So if you are competitive then chances are you won't even care about the normal leagues.

I never bought an extra stash tab and it never made any difference what-so-ever with regards to the competitive aspects of PoE.

Seriously, if you are at all concerned with competition then you don't need to worry about the stash tabs.

This is actually something worth taking into consideration.

 

[Blaine]

To add on that, you actually want a paying system that conveniences you more than just extra tabs? How exactly are you arguing against pay-to-win?

I never said or implied any such thing. I'd prefer that the crafting system not compel to you to collect bargeloads of shit in order to get the most out of your loot to begin with.

 

[Livonya]

If you want to be good at PoE and dominate then you have to practice. I can't tell you how many characters I would start, play until dead, or until 3 hours was up, and then transfer all the wealth to my other characters, and then delete them and start over. Practice, practice, practice.

The accumulation of wealth simply wasn't an issue. I understand that there will be people that are concerned about this, and if you are concerned about being the wealthiest person in one of the regular leagues then, yeah, the stash tabs issue sucks.

But, honestly, if you are really approaching PoE from a competitive point of view then the normal leagues will ONLY be places to fuck around and to practice for the real game which will be the short term leagues. And in fact buying equipment will NOT help you practice, if anything it will make the game seem easy which will lead to your death in the competitive leagues.

There is one thing you will need to be competitive in PoE, but you can't buy that from Grinding Gears. You WILL need a headset and microphone if you intend to play PoE competitively as a lot of the competitions allow groups to dominate, and you can't dominate in a group using the in-game chat system.

But, again, I am not saying that the stash tabs is not an advantage in the normal leagues. It is. There is no doubt about that. What I am saying is that if you don't want to play that game then you don't have to. The real competition will be in the races, and at this point money spent on PoE won't give you an advantage there.

 

[Gregz]

boy, someone is seriously butthurt.

I always thought that Pay2Win is rather when you can buy something for real money that you can't get playing the game...

Like stash tabs?

So you don't have any stash tabs without paying?

Again, I reiterate, this is not a case of pay-to-win. This is a case of pay-to-comfort. You can have multiple accounts with multiple mules (which GGG stated is permissible), additional, paid tabs are just easier to use.

There's actually a lot of reason to be butthurt.

Many people loved Diablo I/II and couldn't wait for Diablo III. We waited 10 years for...well we all know what happened. 10 fucking years.

After the epic fail that was D3, Path of Exile offered hope for Diablo fans. A possibility that someone would finally improve upon Diablo II, and that Diablo II's spiritual successor was actually going to get made.

In early beta the devs consistently said that ALL pay content would be cosmetic, and have no effect on the gameplay experience. They have broken their promise and fundamentally altered the game with the stash tab mechanics. It's now like D3, a real money market where players pay real money to get ahead. It's a complete disgrace.

So yeah, I'm butthurt, so are a lot of people.

 

[hoverdog]

that you will be able to buy additional stash tabs was known for at least a year, if not more. why the butthurt now? have you just awakened with your hand in the potty?

not to mention that's hardly a broken promise or a fundamental alteration of the game.

 

[Gregz]

You are right, but I assumed that system was static. I.e. a "pay once" advantage to reward kickstarter supporters.

Now, it's about what Blaine mentioned, drastically inflating the prefix/suffix names on rares is a blatant money grab. That suggests a trend, they will keep doing it. After the player is hooked and 'invested' in the game they are GGG's bitch, and they'll have to pay more and more just to keep up and be able to play with their friends.

If you don't have good gear, you don't get in good groups.

As I said, this game is something I've really been looking forward to...but now I'm on the fence.

 

[IDtenT]

If you don't have good gear, you don't get in good groups.

Ever thought of playing with friends and not douches?

 

[Gregz]

If you don't have good gear, you don't get in good groups.

Ever thought of playing with friends and not douches?

First you talk about a game you never played, now you're talking about friends. Stick to discussing what you have experience with.

 

[IDtenT]

If you don't have good gear, you don't get in good groups.

Ever thought of playing with friends and not douches?

First you talk about a game you never played, now you're talking about friends. Stick to discussing what you have experience with.

So that's it. You lack friends? I have played the game, although not extensively as I don't want my character wiped.

 

[empi]

Man some people are really good at arguing about a problem that just doesn't exist.

 

[Blaine]

It does, though. Pretending the issue isn't problematic for some people or that it's nonexistent is ridiculous.

 

[Castanova]

It does, though. Pretending the issue isn't problematic for some people or that it's nonexistent is ridiculous.

See, but the problem is, you're just wrong. If we were talking about a game like WoW where there is end-game content and the end-game content is specifically tuned to challenge coordinated groups of players decked out with only the best gear AND there was a pay-for-stash-tab mechanic, then sure there would be a problem.

PoE is not even close to being designed in this way. In PoE, it is fairly easy to out-level, out-gear, and out-OP-build their highest level content. And what's more, GGG has specifically stated that this is intended. It doesn't matter if you're a regular gamer who puts a fair amount of time into PoE or if you're a semi-autistic powergamer -- BOTH players will be able to dominate the end-game content with relative ease.

So, the fact that some players can pay for the opportunity to accumulate wealth in Default league at a faster rate than others is completely meaningless unless you care about (a) having cooler loot than anyone else simply for the sake of it or (b) you are incredibly concerned with being the first to hit the level cap in Default. Because this increased accumulation of wealth that more tabs affords you has no effect whatsoever on your in-game performance. If that's pay-to-win, then I'm a fucking Martian.

 

[godsend1989]

OMFG stash tabs ?!?! this is so pay 2 win, im going back to diablo 3 where i can get full gear with CA$H !

 

[Gregz]

It's so easy to tell who has actually played the game vs. those who are just posting because they're bored.

 

[Blaine]

Well, I've only played a couple of characters to level 60-something, and I haven't played at all (until the past few days) since June. Admittedly, I don't quite know what endgame gear entails, other than the fact that you'll want high ilevel items of the proper type for your build, six (or whatever the max is for X item) linked sockets of the colors you need/want/prefer, a high or maxed-out quality %, and of course a minimum of two or three mods per item appropriate for your build. Also, high-quality gems can make a significant difference, which is why GCP are so valuable. I'm fairly sure that only the Mirror of Kalandra is more valuable.

That sort of gear rarely, if ever, drops from monsters with all the enhancements you want/need. In most cases, you've got to find an appropriate item to use as a base and then slather it with various expensive orbs: Alchemy, Divine, Regal, whatever. I highly doubt the orbs that you receive as drops during a character's journey to max level will be enough to do all of that for an entire set of endgame gear, unless you have a lot of stash tabs and crank out Orbs of Alchemy and Regal Orbs in later levels... in which case you'll be geared up plenty, and will get there faster as well, since you'll be able to afford better stuff in the interim.

But hey, Default league apparently doesn't matter (although clearly it does to someone, since they buy lots of tabs and start orb farms), and you can just make 20 accounts... and besides, they need to get their money from somewhere, so it's all gravy. I'd pay the $235 if they'd un-fuck the crafting system, reduce the need for tabs, and sell me something else instead.