Pathfinder Pathfinder: Kingmaker Builds and Strats Thread

[Haplo]

Somewhat, but not entirely

I still insist that my magus would need to be capable of full tanking duty. But I've taken a liking to hybrid Str/Dex builds.
My main char so far is a Str based Vivisectionist - with a Monk dip for armorless AC, 16 Dex and Wis.
The SS I've tried lately is also 16 S/D/I 14 W with monk dip.

With +8 Wis and +8 Dex available, those 5 extra stat points you get over the course of the game and maybe higher start amount to what, 3 higher modifier?
If a Dex based SS could reach about 75 AC, having about 70 on a hybrid shouldn't be terrible. And you benefit a lot from size bonuses and reach, even moreso late game, with Legendary Proportions.

Sure also less AB, but with the likes of Shatter Defenses, Brilliant Energy, Prescient/Dimension Strike accuracy should not be a primary concern of the magus.

 

[ArchAngel]

Somewhat, but not entirely

I still insist that my magus would need to be capable of full tanking duty. But I've taken a liking to hybrid Str/Dex builds.
My main char so far is a Str based Vivisectionist - with a Monk dip for armorless AC, 16 Dex and Wis.
The SS I've tried lately is also 16 S/D/I 14 W with monk dip.

With +8 Wis and +8 Dex available, those 5 extra stat points you get over the course of the game and maybe higher start amount to what, 3 higher modifier?
If a Dex based SS could reach about 75 AC, having about 70 on a hybrid shouldn't be terrible. And you benefit a lot from size bonuses and reach, even moreso late game, with Legendary Proportions.

Sure also less AB, but with the likes of Shatter Defenses, Brilliant Energy, Prescient/Dimension Strike accuract should not be a primary concern of the magus.

I finished the game with Valerie tanking with about 50 AC after all the buffs. It worked out OK, even vs ghosts and shit. But again she was Kinetic Knight and had about 15 DR by endgame.

 

[Daidre]

When I was completing game for the first time my tank-paladin had all feats for tower shield, was drugging one on his back all the time, and never actually used it in the fight even once

 

[ArchAngel]

I at level 13 with Valerie now and she already has 44 AC unbuffed.

10 + 11 (Heavy armour) + 3 (Dodge from Dex) + 3 (natural armour enhance) + 1 (Dodge) +1(armour focus) + 2 (Shield focus) + 7 (Tower hield +2) + 3 (dodge Stalwart Def) +3 (Ring deflection)

I don't think I have the best amulets rings etc, and I have not optimized the char well yet, so I might easily get more AC. Buffed up she is already hitting 50 I think.

With defensive fighting, her AC goes up to 47 unbuffed. Activating the Stalwart stance takes it to 50 I think. Add buffs on top of that.

I didn't give her tower shield or stalwart defender, it did not matter in the end. But she did 150 damage per round and that mattered.

 

[Daidre]

True. Damage >>> AC. Enemies that are dead can't hit you.

And there is always at least one Big Nasty Zombie Cyclop lucky enough to crit you through all your AC and layers of displacement/mirror image.

 

[Haplo]

I am at level 13 with Valerie now and she already has 44 AC unbuffed.

10 + 11 (Heavy armour) + 3 (Dodge from Dex) + 3 (natural armour enhance) + 1 (Dodge) +1(armour focus) + 2 (Shield focus) + 7 (Tower hield +2) + 3 (dodge Stalwart Def) +3 (Ring deflection)

I don't think I have the best amulets rings etc, and I have not optimized the char well yet, so I might easily get more AC. Buffed up she is already hitting 50 I think.

With defensive fighting, her AC goes up to 47 unbuffed. Activating the Stalwart stance takes it to 50 I think. Add buffs on top of that.

So that's a bit similar to my Fauchard Vivi Tripper at 12:
10 +8 AC bracers +2 dodge (Censor's Robe) +3 Dex (14+4-2 Enlarge) +4 Barkskin Natural AC +2 Mutagen Nat AC +4 Deflection with Shield of Faith +7 Wis Monk bonus +1 Int SS bonus +4 Magic Vestment armor enhancement, so about 47 with long term buffs, 50 with Defensive Fighting.
At 14 he'll have another +4 from Greater Mutagen. 50% crit/sneak resistance at 16 and another +3 AC at 18 from Grand Mutagen.

 

[ArchAngel]

I found some strange numbers in you valerie math. Shield focus is +1 ac and +2 tower shield is 6 ac
My end game valerie had 56 ac without buffs from others. 17 dr that could only by bypassed by +5 weapons and permanent mirror image. Her fort save was over 35 and reflex close to that. Will save was around 25.

 

[Haplo]

permanent mirror image

Color me interested.

 

[ArchAngel]

permanent mirror image

Color me interested.

You find an amulet in House that gives +5 inherent bonus to AC and mirror image that is always active. But you cannot recast it once you lose your initial images. It recasts them automatically on next combat start.

 

[Haplo]

Sweet. Guess I'll eventually have to part with Amulet of Mighty Fists for Bites (and trips). Well I guess it's worth it.

 

[lukaszek]

deterministic system > RNG

 

[Simple Simon]

bros I need help as Im out of my element.
I continue playing with 1thug/*something builds that focus on inimidate so that I can aoe frighten everyone.
I played with pure thug, archeologist, inquisitor, vivisectionist. All str focused. I liked thug and vivi most as they also offer dmg. Obviously vivi is better due to str bonuses and self buffs. With helmets providing both +6 to cha and int you can even start as 10int char.

Now I want to take it to next lvl, I want to make it feral. Thing is Id like some pointers how to maximize claws&bites dmg output(obviously i would wear a cloak for free trips). Which feats I should be concerned with? Do I need twf? How would it work if I pop up mutagen, enlarge, other buffs and finish with turning into bear or something? Can I somehow make it work with shield bash so that I can get some superior AC while keeping dmg output? I was considering dex mostly as tool providing more attacks of opportunity so not necessary rising it on char creation, rather boosting it with mutagen/items/spells. If going full twf line will provide me with many benefits id change my mind.

I'm not an expert, haven't tested it myself, but according to this similar thread on reddit, natural attacks do not benefit from two weapon fighting. https://www.reddit.com/r/Pathfinder...ng_twf_and_feral_mutagen_to_get_extra_attack/ It refers to another high AC/high damage build that multiclasses vivisectionist/fighter/monk. That build is pretty well-explained and does have shield bash as part of it with an agile weapon. https://www.reddit.com/r/Pathfinder...gh_achigh_damage_build_that_im_using_on_hard/ However, if you want to use natural weapons the whole time that may not be what you are looking for.

This thread may halso be helpful. "Feral mutagen is like a two weapon fighting feat and improved version in one mutagen. At level 2 you can have 3 attacks if you go unarmed. Later on, take one handed weapon and you get two extra attacks at -5. I haven't tested if you get a free bite attack with two weapons or two handed weapon, need to try. For improved natural attacks, have a druid in your team that have special spells for that, or use a wand/scroll if they exist. Alchemist have lvl 3 thorn body extract that add 1d6 piercing to unarmed/natural attacks." https://steamcommunity.com/app/640820/discussions/0/1730963192533749283/

 

[Simple Simon]

My apologies, after looking a little more, I think I found something that is more of what you are looking for. https://www.reddit.com/r/Pathfinder...yone_got_a_good_clawbite_build_since_i_gotta/

"Aasimar Vivisectionist (+2STR/+2CHA)

STR 18 (four level ups into STR, fifth into anything)

DEX 14

CON 12

INT 16

WIS 12

CHA 9

Feats

1 Medium armor prof (important spells are Shield, Cure light wounds, and Enlarge Person)

2 Feral mutagen

3 Heavy armor prof

4 Power attack (Barkskin for spell)

5 Weapon focus claw (Bull's strength)

6 Armor focus heavy armor (Resist energy)

7 Dodge (Heroism)

8 Preserve organs (Haste)

9 Metamagic extend spell (Displacement)

10 Mummification (Greater invisibility)

11 Wings (Stoneskin)

12 Greater mutagen (Death ward)

13 Improved initiative (Spell resistance)

14 Dispelling attack (Cure critical wounds)

15 Iron will (Restoration)

16 Grand mutagen (Transformation)

17 Improved Iron will (Heal)

18 Crippling strike (Legendary proportions)

19 Toughness or something else (True Seeing)

20 Spontaneous healing + True mutagen + another feat (any spell)"

Hopefully, that's helpful.

 

[Daidre]

As I checked in the game, claws incompatible with two weapon fighting. They also incompatible with iterative attacks so it is always 2 strikes even with 20 BAB. So as weapon it is mostly flavor.

Bite is more interesting.
I was able to gather 4 bites on one char:
- from mutagen
- from barbarian rage power
- from tiefling heritage
- from dragon disciple
All of them get enchancement bonus from monk amulets.

That makes pretty wierd class combination + barbarian's only active while raging so not very usable without heavy class focus.

So my test char had 2 claw attacks at full BAB and 4 bites with different BAB, some full, some -5 (need more testing here).

Bite is also finessable but with DD strength bonus STR seems better option.
+ 1d6 elemental damage from DD bite works only on Dragon Bite (marked as different weapon).

To sum all this from rational standpoint claws is bit useless but doing some STR combination of Vivi and DD Tiefling with 2 - hander and 3 bites could be interesting.

Other angle is using druid. As animalistic as it gets. Smilodon transformation with 5 attacks. Possible to mix in tiefling and Vivi for better taste and bite everyone twice even in human form.

 

[Daidre]

To max it out, get improved invis and sources of sneak attack. Tear them apart limb from limb.

Necklace of Double Crosses is usually good with such combos. There is still mistake in its description - it adds 2d6 sneak only when target helpless or flat-footed. Works wonders with Shatter Defences feat.

 

[Haplo]

But then you're loosing Amulet of Mighty Fists. Unless you can buff with Magic Claw.

 

[lukaszek]

deterministic system > RNG

 

[Cael]

please clear my confusion of how claws/weapons/bite interact.
If i carry shield and nothing in main, do I get 2 claw attacks? 1 claw? If yes, do I get bash for free? Is such bash getting penalty? Feat description is vague.
If I carry nothing, do I execute claw attacks without regular twf style penalty?
With all hands busy, do I get 'just' bites?

what is the benefit of monk? People keep grabbing 1/2lvls. 2nd is for evasion i assume.

According to the rules, you get to attack once per natural attack if that natural attack is free to do so. One set of natural attacks would be your primary attack (no penalty) while the others will be secondary attacks at a -5 penalty. No TWF penalties apply to natural weapons.

Take, for example, a bear with claw/claw/bite. It has claw as its primary attack, so it can claw twice with no penalty and bite at -5 to-hit (and half Strength bonus to damage).

Now, if the bear is intelligent enough to use a shield, one of its paws/hands is used up, and so it can't claw with it. It can still claw with the other hand at no penalty and bite at -5.

Now, if the bear is using a sword, it can't claw with the hand using the sword, but the sword becomes its primary attack by default. As a manufactured (non-natural) weapon, you can also get iterative attacks with it if your BAB is high enough. That means you now get a full attack with the sword, a claw attack at -5 (and half-Strength) and a bite attack at -5 (half-Strength).

Now, if the bear is using a sword and a shield, it can't claw at all, but get both sword attacks and bite at -5 and half-Strength.



Your question regarding the Monk is that Monks get the Wis to AC bonus (or Cha if you take a certain variant) at level 1. This bonus stacks with everything, and if you are playing a Wis or Cha heavy character, will eventually be higher than enchanted plate armour (especially when you take into account you can still wear bracers of armour with no penalty).

 

[Daidre]

If i carry shield and nothing in main, do I get 2 claw attacks? 1 claw? If yes, do I get bash for free? Is such bash getting penalty? Feat description is vague.
If I carry nothing, do I execute claw attacks without regular twf style penalty?
With all hands busy, do I get 'just' bites?

- If you carry shield with main claw hand and have Shield Bash feat you should get 1 claw attack from main hand (no iteratives) and Shield Bash with all TWF bonuses and penalties. So it is up 3 hits from higher tiers of 2WF.
- I you carry nothing, you get 2 claws attacks, one from each hand and never more.
- With both hands busy it is only bites
Claws and bites is separate so bite is added on top of everything

what is the benefit of monk? People keep grabbing 1/2lvls. 2nd is for evasion i assume.

Beside WIS/CHA to AC I use it to get free flurry attack at full BAB with monk weapons (Sai, Quarterstaff, Kama etc) or unarmed.
You can Shield Bash and still get it with 1-handers. There is super-sai with +2 attacks in the game.
At monk 2 you get evasion and free feat from limited list.
You wont get any unarmed bonuses to claw/bites because feats for it not in the game.

now im wondering if im willing to sacrifice +2 intimidate from being orc

I avoid orcs because of interaction between AI/Orc Ferocity. They are still attacked below 0 HP and constantly getting killed. Extra bad on MC with load game screen.

If you want at least 16 Alchemist levels, than Dragon Disciple is out I guess. And barb and monk is incompatible because of alignment (but you can try to pull if off with RP choices and cheat scrolls).

 

[lukaszek]

deterministic system > RNG

 

[Daidre]

They seem to move closer for it unless character is enlarged.

 

[Haplo]

If you're a Lawful Good Monk, you can also wear the Protector Robes (+5 Dodge AC).

+5 Full Plate: 14 AC (+1 max Dex bonus, +3 if Mithral, possibly more if Fighter)
Bracers of Armor: +8AC, Protector Robes: +5AC, Magic Vestment +5AC, Monk Wis bonus with 16 starting Wis and +8 mental stat hat: +7AC => 25 AC (+unlimited Dex bonus)

 

[Cael]

If you're a Lawful Good Monk, you can also wear the Protector Robes (+5 Dodge AC).

+5 Full Plate: 14 AC (+1 max Dex bonus, +3 if Mithral, possibly more if Fighter)
Bracers of Armor: +8AC, Protector Robes: +5AC, Magic Vestment +5AC, Monk Wis bonus with 16 starting Wis and +8 mental stat hat: +7AC => 25 AC (+unlimited Dex bonus)

From a Dnd perspective, bracers are technically not armour. Only torso pieces are "armour". It is a different slot. Magic Vestments shouldn't work on them.

 

[lukaszek]

deterministic system > RNG

 

[Cael]

not really interested in monk/pally splash. It can have be superior ac/saves but im chaotic, always. Sine I did not pay for tiefling, I will go with reach biting orc.
Quite sad as in the end im not changing much about current build, just adding feral goods: +2 intimidate along with single extra attack with trip

I am not sure how bugmaker handles reach, but your bite shouldn't have reach...