Pathfinder Pathfinder: Kingmaker Builds and Strats Thread

[Haplo]

actually... whats the point of spending exotic prof on double weapon if you need full twf line to utilize it?
Is the difference in having 1.5 str offhand as opposed to 0.5 str light?

Nope, as always with dual-wielding, it's 1x main hand, 0,5x offhand. Can improve offhand to 1x by picking Double Slash.

 

[Haplo]

on the other hand... if i shape shift into smilodon or draconic as 6 lvl alchemical spell, both with 5 natural attacks, each get full 1.0 str without any feats right? Or is there a way to get 1.5 on natural attacks? Ive finally realized that with my ultra high str those things start to matter

Uhhh natural attacks are funny, I'm not sure how it works with the Smilodon attacks, but some get 1.0x (primary) and some get 0.5x (secondary)

Don't think you can get 1.5x but not sure

I think Dragon Disciple Bite is supposed to give that. But I don't know if it actually does here.

 

[Haplo]

As I checked in the game, claws incompatible with two weapon fighting. They also incompatible with iterative attacks so it is always 2 strikes even with 20 BAB. So as weapon it is mostly flavor.

Bite is more interesting.
I was able to gather 4 bites on one char:
- from mutagen
- from barbarian rage power
- from tiefling heritage
- from dragon disciple
All of them get enchancement bonus from monk amulets.

That makes pretty wierd class combination + barbarian's only active while raging so not very usable without heavy class focus.

So my test char had 2 claw attacks at full BAB and 4 bites with different BAB, some full, some -5 (need more testing here).

Bite is also finessable but with DD strength bonus STR seems better option.
+ 1d6 elemental damage from DD bite works only on Dragon Bite (marked as different weapon).

To sum all this from rational standpoint claws is bit useless but doing some STR combination of Vivi and DD Tiefling with 2 - hander and 3 bites could be interesting.

This really starts to shine when you spec for Trip, wear the Cloak of the Winter Wolf and get the Mastery artisan fauchard. The bonus attack damage from Mastery will also trigger off the Bite trips. So you get 3x two-handed attacks (4 with Haste), 3x Bite attacks (guess you could go crazy and get all 4, but not sure its worth it... and the Barbarian one lasts only as long as you Rage.. I value Monk defences higher anyway), each of those Bites attempts to Trip (Mastery provides +5 CMB, if you succeed everyone in range gets an AoO with Greater Trip) and if you suceed, Mastery also deals two-handed attack damage with no attack roll. Can't re-Trip someone already tripped... but then again few things survive the first sneak Bite-Trip-AoO-fauchard damage barrage, so you can switch targets for the 2nd/3rd Bite.

 

[lukaszek]

deterministic system > RNG

 

[Haplo]

ope, as always with dual-wielding, it's 1x main hand, 0,5x offhand. Can improve offhand to 1x by picking Double Slash.

whats the point of double weapon then?

The point is to have a 1d8 weapon for both main hand and offhand. That both use the same proficiency/feats. And with only a - 2/-2 penalty. If you tried to dual wield longswords, you'd suffer -4/-4.

and the Barbarian one lasts only as long as you Rage

again, can use rage spell

Sure, you can can do it. But Rage lasts rounds per level, so not that easy to keep up all the time. At the same time it's not as useful for the whole party as Haste for example.

 

[Daidre]

I actually like 2-handers in P:K even on SA builds. Less feats required to properly function in crazy multies and all extra STR from bloodlines and mutagens + Power Attack can help to achieve excellent output even against SA immune targets. Gives you some tasty crits in AOO combos too.
What bugs me most with 2WF is how rare you can see all your extra attacks actually used in the round. I used Nok a lot, but his target is usually dead after couple of strikes + heavy hit from Amiri and he loses everything after by moving.

So I always take Serpent Prince or staff with monk dip over double kukri on my Vivi or even rogues.

It is very different after my SA builds in NWN.

 

[VentilatorOfDoom]

Was the same in NWN tbh, biggest dmg was STR based rogue/WM.

 

[razvedchiki]

So sword saint/duelist or aldori defender (with the usual dip into monk) for the ultimate dex tank?.
On paper sword saint can have 3 sources of ac( from dex,wis,int) of which int can double with duelist so much better ac and he doesnt loose it all when flat footed.

 

[Haplo]

Not sure about keeping the Int AC without Uncanny Dodge. Might be. You do keep the Monk Wis AC.

And sure, its the ultimate tank. Question is, do you really need that much AC? IMO after some point its more beneficial to invest in more damage instead. Or further development of Sword Saint class abilities for example.

 

[razvedchiki]

Havent played but briefly on hard but i think the extra ac will be needed on that difficulty.
Dmg wise main source of dps for the sword saint(what a stupid name,the old fighter/mage is too boring i guess) is his melee touch attacks?

 

[Haplo]

Havent played but briefly on hard but i think the extra ac will be needed on that difficulty.
Dmg wise main source of dps for the sword saint(what a stupid name,the old fighter/mage is too boring i guess) is his melee touch attacks?

Nah. He can nova a little with spellstrike, mostly against bosses, but generally his spell slots are rather limited. Main source of damage is str or dex, crits (increased multiplier with perfect strike), Arcane Strike, weapon enchantment boosts (elemental, holy/axiomatic, bane), weapon spec./greater, weapon size/damage dice (can max base damage with Perfect Strike and with a weapon such as Bastard can have 4d8 with Legendary Proportions and Lead Blades) and Int. Maybe Power Attack/Piranha Strike.

If you want a class that can have a strong focus on Spellstrike, go with standard Magus and make sure to install Eldiritch Arcana mod with Intensify Spell metamagic. With (Improved) Spell Recall standard magus can spam a lot of touch spells. But it is much more difficult to build a strong AC with the base archetype.

 

[zapotec]

I am doing a kinekic knight, what you do think about his stats?
Tiefling Hell heritage (+2 cos + 2 wisdom)
STR: 14 WIS:12
DEX: 12 INT:10
COS: 20 CAR:8

Maybe i can drop Cos to 19 and raise STR to 16?

 

[Daidre]

I would have dropped CON to 19 for 16 STR since there are 5 Attribute Points on level ups. I always try to leave odd number into primary attribute planning for it and after 1.2 patch lvl 20 is more achievable.

 

[Haplo]

I would rather go for a Abyssal bloodline scion + Angelic bloodline. Another alternative is angelic bloodline + Bronze dragon line + Dragon Disciple.

Going ES doesn't really solve the limited spell slot issue. Actually makes it worse, as an ES can't use metamagic with Spell Combat, therefore it doesn't makes sense to use different spell levels to fill with Shocking Grasp and such. No Intensified Maximized Empowered 90 damage Shocking Grasp Spellstrikes (x2 on crit) & Full Attacks in the same round for you!

 

[axedice]

What you need in a monk/pally charisma tank is improved uncanny dodge and a sustainable way of casting 2 important spells : Mirror Image + Displacement. You can get imp. uncanny dodge if you stack 2 uncanny dodges from diffrent classes.

Easiest way to get first U.D. is archeologist 2 (bard subclass). On top of that they have access to mirror image at lvl4 and displacement at lvl7, main ability for casting is charisma so stacks well with AC/Save bonuses from paladin and monk. One drawback to bard is they don't have the shield spell, which is very important especially at early levels so an alchemist buddy becomes obligatory. If you go down this road, then you can also have your alchemist (or another arcane caster) buff you with displacement as well.

Second source of uncanny dodge is rogue lvl4, which also nets you some sneak damage on top of finesse attack and damage feat for free. But then you're stretching your classes too thin, spells are coming too late etc.

The combination that has it all is the eldritch scoundrel. And unlike vivisectionist, you have access to mirror image + improved uncanny dodge without multiclassing (scoundrels get both uncannies from class talent selection). At M1/P2/ES 17, you can even cast lvl6 spells. You will be lacking the mutagen bonus (maybe 1 lvl dip just to get the +4?) but mirror image seems like a worthy trade-off here. You low (13 for combat expertise) starting intelligence and standart vancian casting (as opposed to spontaneous charisma casting) are the main drawbacks here.

You could also do this kind of combo with eldritch scion but they are more offensive oriented and lack uncanny, need extensive multiclassing (on top of 1M/2P). If you go sword saint intelligence route, then you lack the saving throw bonus from charisma. So overall for pure tank, Scoundrel hybrid seems like the best option.

 

[Incendax]

The best combo is Eldritch Scion 4 / Monk 1/ Pala 2/ Rogue (Thug) 4 / WhateverWhatever. You get ridiculous saves, ridiculous DC on your Dazzling display and fear effect to top on that to which very few enemies are immune. This build does crazy damage from strength, stacks debuffs and gets mirror images. I'd go Dragon disciple after that.

Every time I look at Eldritch Scion I cannot help but think about how a Sorcerer can do it better. Better AC, better spell damage, better melee damage, better Dazzling Display, etc.

 

[Haplo]

But standard magus gets weapon enchantments AND Spell Recall. Sword Saint gets weapon enchantments AND superior defense, speed and damage.
Eldiritch Scion gets a few Bloodline gimmicks by comparison. And is Cha based, which admittedly can be an advantage.

 

[Incendax]

ES gets weapon enhancements, which are really the chief feature in my opinion. Once you hit level 6 on ES, you basically have a full 6 minutes of enhancing.

It’s a nice ribbon, but you can always just use a weapon with the enchant you want. There are many weapons with speed, flaming, etc. Even some with brilliant energy and ghost touch. Swapping weapons costs nothing, even swapping directly from your inventory.

And it causes enchantments to drop off your weapons, which limits the usefulness severely in the mid-late game.

 

[Cael]

actually... whats the point of spending exotic prof on double weapon if you need full twf line to utilize it?
Is the difference in having 1.5 str offhand as opposed to 0.5 str light?

You don't have to. In a sane game, double weapons have several advantages without TWF:

1. It is considered a two-handed weapon if you only use one end at a time and not as a double weapon.
2. Each head is enchanted differently, so you can have a flaming one one side and a frost one the other. If a creature is immune to fire, you switch heads as a free action and continue the carnage.
3. You can also have the different heads made with different metals (if it is a metallic weapon). This basically mean you have two 2-hd weapons in hand at all times, as it take a free action to switch between the heads. If you run into something that has massive DR to cold iron, you flip it over and keep on hacking with the silver end.
4. Some double weapons have different types of damage. A Dwarven Urgosh is piercing one end, slashing the other. Gnome hook hammers are bludgeon one side and piercing the other.

 

[Cael]

on the other hand... if i shape shift into smilodon or draconic as 6 lvl alchemical spell, both with 5 natural attacks, each get full 1.0 str without any feats right? Or is there a way to get 1.5 on natural attacks? Ive finally realized that with my ultra high str those things start to matter

Uhhh natural attacks are funny, I'm not sure how it works with the Smilodon attacks, but some get 1.0x (primary) and some get 0.5x (secondary)

Don't think you can get 1.5x but not sure

I think Dragon Disciple Bite is supposed to give that. But I don't know if it actually does here.

Generally one type of attack is considered the primary. Everything else is secondary. Most creatures with a claw/claw/bite routine will have the claw as primary. You are only supposed to get 1.5x Strength if you have one natural attack (like dogs, which only have 1 bite attack).

Dragon Disciple gives a claw/claw/bite routine, IIRC, which means 1x/1x/0.5x only.

 

[Haplo]

I don't know how its implemented (I'm happy you don't have to grow claws here, which is Cha mod limited), but according to SRD:

Dragon Bite (Ex)
At 2nd level, whenever the dragon disciple uses his bloodline to grow claws, he also gains a bite attack. This is a primary natural attack that deals 1d6 points of damage (1d4 if the dragon disciple is Small), plus 1–1/2 times the dragon disciple’s Strength modifier. Upon reaching 6th level, this bite also deals 1d6 points of energy damage. The type of damage dealt is determined by the dragon disciple’s bloodline.

 

[Cael]

I don't know how its implemented (I'm happy you don't have to grow claws here, which is Cha mod limited), but according to SRD:

Dragon Bite (Ex)
At 2nd level, whenever the dragon disciple uses his bloodline to grow claws, he also gains a bite attack. This is a primary natural attack that deals 1d6 points of damage (1d4 if the dragon disciple is Small), plus 1–1/2 times the dragon disciple’s Strength modifier. Upon reaching 6th level, this bite also deals 1d6 points of energy damage. The type of damage dealt is determined by the dragon disciple’s bloodline.

*shrug* Sounds like more paitardedness. But why not. More attacks, more numbers, more bloat. The trend continues.

 

[Chaotic_Heretic]

guys does the spell combat of eldritch scion stack with dragonform's natural attacks in game?

 

[Yosharian]

ES gets weapon enhancements, which are really the chief feature in my opinion. Once you hit level 6 on ES, you basically have a full 6 minutes of enhancing.

It’s a nice ribbon, but you can always just use a weapon with the enchant you want. There are many weapons with speed, flaming, etc. Even some with brilliant energy and ghost touch. Swapping weapons costs nothing, even swapping directly from your inventory.

And it causes enchantments to drop off your weapons, which limits the usefulness severely in the mid-late game.

"And it causes enchantments to drop off your weapons"

Wait what

 

[VentilatorOfDoom]

Weapons can have up to +10 enchantment, so if you already have a heavily enchanted weapon using the magus enchantments will cause some other enchantments on the weapon to become null and void