Pathfinder Pathfinder: Kingmaker Builds and Strats Thread

[Trashos]

Apologies for breaking up momentarily the matter of building up Linzi (which I agree that it is not straightforward if you decide not to go full Bard).

I have eventually agreed with Desiderius' comment that my previous Eldritch Knight build was "all over the place", and I am now taking a different approach. Two Weapon Fighting is out, and the Wizard part is going to be fully focused on Illusion. Given that I have decided to go with Wizard instead of Sorcerer, there are two different builds I am trying to choose from. Note that this is theorycrafting, I have not tried these builds yet.

The expectation here is that this build can do both Wizard and melee. Not as good as a Magus for melee (I do not have Magus Arcana), but much better than a Magus in spellcasting.

Here are the builds. Which one would YOU choose?

Human Eldritch Knight/Illusionist
STR 7, DEX 18, CON 12, INT 18++, WIS 10, CHA 10
Viper familiar
Opposition Schools: Divination / Necromancy

Build#1: Aldori Defender(1)/ Illusionist(5)/ EK(10)/ Illusionist(4)
Pros: Has 2 more feats, wields a Dueling Sword.
Cons: Lags 2lvls behind in spells in comparison to a full Wizard.

Spoiler

1 Aldori Defender(1)
Weapon Focus(Dueling Sword)/ Spell Focus(Illusion)/ Weapon Finesse

2 Illusionist(1)
Spell Specialization

3 Illusionist(2)
Gr. Spell Focus (Illusion)

4 Illusionist(3)

5 Illusionist(4)
Heighten Spell

6 Illusionist(5)
Spell Penetration

7 EK(1)
Outflank/ Blind Fight

8 EK(2)

9 EK(3)
Gr. Spell Penetration

10 EK(4)

11 EK(5)
Improved Crit(Dueling Sword)/ Shake it Off

12 EK(6)

13 EK(7)
Gr. Weapon Focus(Dueling Sword)

14 EK(8)

15 EK(9)
Allied Spellcaster/ Dazzling Display?

16 EK(10)

17 Illusionist(6)
?

18 Illusionist(7)

19 Illusionist(8)
?

20 Illusionist(9)

The 2 last feats can be used to specialize in an additional school.

Build#2: Illusionist(5)/ Ek(10)/ Illusionist(5)
Pros: Lags just 1lvl behind in spells in comparison to a full Wizard.
Cons: Has 2 less feats, does not wield a Dueling Sword (because that would require to burn an additional feat), I wonder whether it is going to be able to hit anything in melee.

Spoiler

1 Illusionist(1)
Spell Focus(Illusion)/ Gr. Spell Focus(Illusion)/ Spell Specialization

2 Illusionist(2)

3 Illusionist(3)
Heighten Spell

4 Illusionist(4)

5 Illusionist(5)
Martial Weapon Proficiency/ Spell Penetration

6 EK(1)
Weapon finesse

7 EK(2)
Outflank

8 EK(3)

9 EK(4)
Blind Fight

10 EK(5)
Weapon Focus(Rapier -probably)

11 EK(6)
Shake it Off

12 EK(7)
Gr. Weapon Focus(Rapier)

13 EK(8)

14 EK(9)
Allied Spellcaster

15 EK(10)
Gr. Spell Penetration

16 Illusionist(6)

17 Illusionist(7)
Impr. Crit(Rapier)

18 Illusionist(8)

19 Illusionist(9)
?

20 Illusionist(10)

 

[Cleric of Asmodeus]

I haven’t built an Eldritch Knight yet but I’ve been toying around with a concept focused on criticals and spewing out spells as swift actions. Not sure if it’s the most optimal but it sounds like a fun mini game.

Anyways, with that in mind I think I would be trying to focus on a weapon with an eventual crit range of 15-20

 

[Trashos]

Anyways, with that in mind I think I would be trying to focus on a weapon with an eventual crit range of 15-20

Rapiers are like that, but Dueling Swords are like that too if you take out the Lonely Barrow lich early! And Dueling Swords have a much better progression than Rapiers in general (may be the best progression in the game).

 

[oldmanpaco]

This is how you build an EK:

1) Great Axe
2) Enlarge
3) ????
4) Profit

 

[Trashos]

oldmanpaco, I am kinda worried that my AC is going to suck balls if I invest in STR instead of DEX. I am going to have mirror image and other goodies available, of course, but I am wondering whether the mirror images will need constant renewals due to my low AC.

Fwiw, my Reflex saves are going to suck balls, too. Still, Greataxes are awesome, and I do see why one might want to try that.

 

[oldmanpaco]

oldmanpaco, I am kinda worried that my AC is going to suck balls if I invest in STR instead of DEX. I am going to have mirror image and other goodies available, of course, but I am wondering whether the mirror images will need constant renewals due to my low AC.

Fwiw, my Reflex saves are going to suck balls, too. Still, Greataxes are awesome, and I do see why one might want to try that.

Well with enlarge you won't be in direct combat that often and MI/blur will tide you over when you do get targeted. I'd rather have +2 to hit than +2 to AC. You also won't provoke aoo casting. Get the extend metamagic feat and run mirror, shield, blur, and enlarge for 20+ minutes by mid game. An alchemist can also give you shit like shield and barkskin so you don't need to cast it yourself.

If you want to be the main tank magus is the way to go anyway.

 

[Trashos]

No, I won't be the main tank, I will be like the 4rth off-tank in the party I am envisioning

Jaethal tank
Okbo/Ekun
Harrim
Jubilost
Reggie
EK

Reggie is going to be replaced every time I need to get someone else in.
But this is still the MC we are talking about, and if he dies it is automatically a reload, which has me worried.

However, I am noticing that with a STR build I can get rid of the Weapon Finesse feat, which is important in such a feat-starved build. Hmmm... I am returning soon with a STR build design.

 

[oldmanpaco]

I am returning soon with a STR build design.

STR builds are always better. Don't let the limp wrists tell you otherwise.

 

[Cleric of Asmodeus]

They need a Legendary Reduced Proportions or something to even the playing field

 

[Trashos]

No, I do not agree that STR build are always better. Several reason for that:
- Several available frontliners are already STR
- No Touch AC
- No Reflex saves
- In the case of unarmored characters, awful AC
- Legendary Proportions is awesome, but it only comes at around Ch5.

However, in this case with all the mirror images and whatnot, I might give it a try for a part-time offtank.

Anyway, here comes the build.

 

[oldmanpaco]

- Several available frontliners are already STR

Yeah because dex builds suck and the devs know this.

- No Touch AC

Meme problem.

- No Reflex saves

Conceded but can be countered with equipment.

- Legendary Proportions is awesome, but it only comes at around Ch5.

And before that you have enlarge.

Anyway the best defense (as several of the severely autistic posters in this thread have pointed out) is offense. AB/damage goes farther than AC.

 

[Trashos]

Human Eldritch Knight/Illusionist
Build#3 (STR): Illusionist(5)/ EK(10)/ Illusionist(5)
STR 18, DEX 7, CON 12, INT 18++, WIS 10, CHA 10
Viper familiar
Opposition Schools: Divination / Necromancy

Pros: Lags just 1lvl behind in spells in comparison to a full Wizard. Can use Greataxes. Does not need Weapon Finesse.
Cons: Terrible AC. Terrible Reflex saves.

Spoiler

1 Illusionist(1)
Spell Focus(Illusion)/ Gr. Spell Focus(Illusion)/ Spell Specialization

2 Illusionist(2)

3 Illusionist(3)
Heighten Spell

4 Illusionist(4)

5 Illusionist(5)
Martial Weapon Proficiency/ Spell Penetration

6 EK(1)
Weapon Focus(Greataxe)

7 EK(2)
Outflank

8 EK(3)

9 EK(4)
Gr. Spell Penetration

10 EK(5)
Blind Fight

11 EK(6)
Impr. Crit(Greataxe)

12 EK(7)

13 EK(8)
Shake it Off

14 EK(9)
Gr. Weapon Focus(Greataxe)

15 EK(10)
Allied Spellcaster

16 Illusionist(6)

17 Illusionist(7)
?

18 Illusionist(8)

19 Illusionist(9)
?

20 Illusionist(10)

Last feats can be another school, strengthening Saves or Weapon Specialization.

If this build can survive the game, it looks awesome, tbh.

 

[oldmanpaco]

Dazzling Display/Shatter Defenses will be better than Shake it Off/Allied Spellcaster.

edit: unless there is no bard or dedicated dazzler.

 

[oldmanpaco]

Goddamnit CotW mod nerfs bards hard. Takes away five (5!) feats and replaces them with shitty skill bonuses. What the hell. Now I need to rethink my whole party.

edit: It also "fixes" lingering performance.

edit2: Well going to try a dirge bard. See if crap like Cacophonous Call or Confusion really effect the undead.

Not just skill bonuses (they're far from shitty), masterpieces. Mass Longstrider (Triple Step) is one of the most powerful things you can do and you get it really early where it matters. Jesus, you people have no imagination.

But yeah, try out dirge for us. Arrowsong is cool too.

All mind effecting spells from Dirge Bard effect undead as does the song. Doubling down on shatter defenses to carry me through Unfair. Oh and triple step can be taken as a regular feat and its pretty damn good as you said.

 

[Trashos]

And before that you have enlarge.

Anyway the best defense (as several of the severely autistic posters in this thread have pointed out) is offense. AB/damage goes farther than AC.

Eh, while STR has Enlarge, DEX has Reduce.
No, I am not accepting the "the best defense is offense" . If you do not die, you win. If you die, you lose, no matter the damage dealing potential. Obviously, in practice you need a combination of both.

I would say that the major advantage of STR builds is the plethora of good STR weapons (while there are very few good options for DEX). And Legendary Proportions from Ch5 on, but that's kinda late.

Dazzling Display/Shatter Defenses will be better than Shake it Off/Allied Spellcaster.

edit: unless there is no bard or dedicated dazzler.

Shake it Off is awesome, it stays in no matter what. For Allied Spellcaster, I will have to watch to see how much it actually helped.
Dazzling Display is probably going to be taken by another party member (Reggie probably), not much space here. Shatter Defenses... hmm... not a bad idea. May have to come late, though.

 

[oldmanpaco]

Shake it Off is awesome, it stays in no matter what. For Allied Spellcaster, I will have to watch to see how much it actually helped.
Dazzling Display is probably going to be taken by another party member (Reggie probably), not much space here. Shatter Defenses... hmm... not a bad idea. May have to come late, though.

The problem with teamwork feats is that you need to go all in with everyone. Is everyone going to take shake it off?

And Shatter Defense is really only required on unfair. Finished on challenging without anyone taking it or DD.

 

[Desiderius]

Once Dazzling Display became a Full Round Action and Bard Songs no longer stack Shatter got a lot worse.

This is fixed in Wrath.

 

[Cleric of Asmodeus]

*autist enters the room, bows, sweeps cape over shoulder* For your consideration, my liege:

Satan
Pitborn Abyssal Sorc 10/EK 10
18 (20*) 16 10 5 11 19
*gets 2 str from bloodline (Sorc 9).

Alternatively,

Lich Master
Pitborn Undead Sorc 10/EK 10
18 16 10 5 11 19
DR (5) eventually DR (10_ and can cast mind spells on undead.

Mr. Greasy Cat Man
Pitborn Sylvan Sorc 10/EK 10
18 16 10 5 11 19
Cat

Ass Biter
Motherless Red Dragon Sorc 6 DD 4 EK10
18 (22) 16 10 5 11 19
2 extra bite attacks, this man has 2 mouths. Winter wolf cape.

*zooms away on electric scooter*

These get 5 more AC

 

[oldmanpaco]

Once Dazzling Display became a Full Round Action and Bard Songs no longer stack Shatter got a lot worse.

This is fixed in Wrath.

I'm going to ignore the fact you quoted yourself and just ask how its fixed?

 

[Trashos]

The problem with teamwork feats is that you need to go all in with everyone. Is everyone going to take shake it off?

Yes, Shake it Off is always taken by everyone.
(Blind Fight too, though not a TW feat)

The above EK build is supposed to ironman-kinda Hard, and then I will take it to Unfair.

 

[razvedchiki]

Once Dazzling Display became a Full Round Action and Bard Songs no longer stack Shatter got a lot worse.

Well an 8lvl bard can fire dirge and bufff song the same round. Some classes like the slayer also benefit tremendously from shatter especially if you play with mods that alter the flanking rules to be closer to tabletop.

 

[Desiderius]

No, they fixed it.

 

[Yosharian]

Alternatively you could just play a Magus

 

[Trashos]

Alternatively you could just play a Magus

I was very happy with my Sword Saint on Hard. The point with EK is that I am trying to upgrade the spellcasting to that of a normal Wizard (minus a lag of 1 level for spells), while sacrificing a bit of the Magus melee ability.

 

[Yosharian]

Alternatively you could just play a Magus

I was very happy with my Sword Saint on Hard. The point with EK is that I am trying to upgrade the spellcasting to that of a normal Wizard (minus a lag of 1 level for spells), while sacrificing a bit of the Magus melee ability.

And my point would be that that is pointless in Kingmaker