Pathfinder Pathfinder: Kingmaker Builds and Strats Thread

[Yosharian]

Well, there are also (greater) invisibility spells and spell like abilities. And later, apart from Impromptu Sneak Attack, also Frightening Presence works well, if one of the casters can be closer to the enemies.

Oh yeah I know about Frightening Presence, I just meant something for mid-game.

I hadn't thought about Greater Invisibility, that will do it I guess.

 

[Cael]

Didn't really feel that way here. Thing is, some spells in Kingmaker are clearly better then others. And effective in 90% of the circumstances. As long as you stay away from Cold based spells, you should be okay. Also a Rod of Fiery Vengeance can change all your offensive spells to Fire. Scorching Ray, Volcanic Eruption and Stormbolts are strictly better then most blasting alternatives (on an AT).

That is the main reason why cRPGs favour Sorcerers. The lesser number of useful spells plus the much more restricted ways you can use them (e.g., you can't use Stone to Mud to cause stalactites to fall on to the enemy, which you can in PnP) means Sorcerer tends to be better in cRPGs due to their greater number of casts per day and ability to switch on the fly.

 

[Haplo]

Not a better Trickster/skill monkey, though. Also less versatile at CC, buffing and such.

 

[Mangoose]

I was theorizing about an all-caster party for turn-based mode. No physical damage dealers at all.

1: Blaster Sorc-AT or Thassilonian-AT
2: Sorc summoner-controller
3: Druid summoner-nuker
4: Kineticist nuker
5: Cleric nuker
6: Alchemist bomber

Main concept is create a wall of cannon fodder then blast the shit out of enemies with spells. I thought it could be fun.

Very WWI loll

 

[Desiderius]

Didn't really feel that way here. Thing is, some spells in Kingmaker are clearly better then others. And effective in 90% of the circumstances. As long as you stay away from Cold based spells, you should be okay. Also a Rod of Fiery Vengeance can change all your offensive spells to Fire. Scorching Ray, Volcanic Eruption and Stormbolts are strictly better then most blasting alternatives (on an AT).

Fire's not strictly better in Wrath though.

 

[Desiderius]

Didn't really feel that way here. Thing is, some spells in Kingmaker are clearly better then others. And effective in 90% of the circumstances. As long as you stay away from Cold based spells, you should be okay. Also a Rod of Fiery Vengeance can change all your offensive spells to Fire. Scorching Ray, Volcanic Eruption and Stormbolts are strictly better then most blasting alternatives (on an AT).

That is the main reason why cRPGs favour Sorcerers. The lesser number of useful spells plus the much more restricted ways you can use them (e.g., you can't use Stone to Mud to cause stalactites to fall on to the enemy, which you can in PnP) means Sorcerer tends to be better in cRPGs due to their greater number of casts per day and ability to switch on the fly.

P:K has Cave Fangs for that. There's probably about 50 spells I want access to in P:K. Sorc doesn't get anywhere near that. Plus it sux at Metamagic (CotW has fix for this if you're willing to spend the Feats) which is the real key to damage. If you want to spam the same spell over and over the way to do it is MetaWiz. Sorcs are fine in their own right but that's about Bloodline not anything you're talking about.

Yet again people playing old games in their head instead of the existing game that brings them what they said they wanted.

 

[Mr. Magniloquent]

HP doubled in 3E and its derivatives. Dealing damage with spells is sub-optimal. Wizard vs. Sorcerer advantages comes down to challenges of the game. PFKM favors the the wizard because of AT implementation, abundant resources (money, scrolls, wands, rods, etc.), high utilization of skills, and slow leveling. The extra feats bolster the case as well. Furthermore, sorcerers won't receive their capstone bloodline powers until very late game. Most won't ever see their Level 20 power.

 

[The Avatar]

HP doubled in 3E and its derivatives. Dealing damage with spells is sub-optimal. Wizard vs. Sorcerer advantages comes down to challenges of the game. PFKM favors the the wizard because of AT implementation, abundant resources (money, scrolls, wands, rods, etc.), high utilization of skills, and slow leveling. The extra feats bolster the case as well. .

I agree in general that blasters are not as good as battlefield controllers, but your statement doesn't tell the whole story. Yes, HP has increased from 2E to 3E, but you will find that spell damage has also increased(compared to AD&D 2e) with the advent of metamagic(maximize, empower spell), and their associated rods, and other sources of damage(spell specialization). Opening combat with a well placed maximized empowered AOE spell like fireball is not a bad tactic.

 

[The Avatar]

So what's the best archer build in Kingmaker?

Fighter gets lots of static damage increases like weapon specialization and Weapon Training, and a ton of extra feats.
Slayer has Studies Target, which gives similar +x/+x bonuses like Weapon Training. They also have Sneak Attack, but that's slightly harder to set up with ranged.
Ranger...gets nothing except some free feats and maybe a conditional bonus for favored enemy. Pets are OP though.

 

[Haplo]

Conditional bonus can be applied in a pinch vs any enemy via a spell.
Also, can improve the damage dice of his bow with another spell. Plus improve its crit range with another (doesn't stack with imp. crit., but available early).

 

[Delterius]

1: Blaster Sorc-AT or Thassilonian-AT

Go Thassilonian or just another, sensible type of Wizard tbh. Being 2 levels behind in spell level acquisition is too crippling, even if you're AT.

 

[Mr. Magniloquent]

The Avatar I made Ekundayo into a slayer. My parties typically utilize a lot of CCs, so he had the ability to use his sneaks regularly. This included my two front line fighters using combat maneuvers to setup for sneaks. While you won't get any use out of Opportunist at range, you will be able to use Crippling Strike. Improving Ekundayo's initiative will also let you get a solid full attack on a VIP at the beginning of combat. If you don't use much CC, I still think that a pure fighter makes a superior bowman over a ranger. More feats, better feats, and the weapon/armor training features of a pure class fighter are really good. The only thing that disappoints about a fighter, is that their feats which allow you do ignore 5-10 damage resistance don't work correctly. Rangers do have pets, which can be OP in Kingmaker, but I don't like them.

 

[Sjukob]

So what's the best archer build in Kingmaker?

I had an idea for eldritch archer 2/eldritch scoundrel 18 build for a big "FUCK YOU" sneak attacks with scorching rays and arrows, unfortunately only the first hit procs sneak attack and battering blast doesn't even work with spell strike. It's still is a good archer all things considered, bracers of archery + death from afar would offset any spellstrike related penalties, debilitating injury turns you into a freebooter of sorts and spell strike is still extra attack + spell damage, whether it procs sneak attack or not.

Go Thassilonian or just another, sensible type of Wizard tbh. Being 2 levels behind in spell level acquisition is too crippling, even if you're AT.

I too used to think that it was a problem, but honestly abundance of spells + easy to get extra damage makes it irrelevant. The most important capstone for a blaster caster is getting level 6 spells - chain lightning, sirocco, hellfire ray. Everything that comes afterwards is surely nice, but it doesn't compare to a massive powerspike that blasters get by acquiring level 6 spells. For an AT sorc that happens at level 13, after that you are ready to take on whatever the game throws at you. 2 levels of delayed spell progression aren't as much of a problem, the real boogeyman is sorcerer inability to read learn from scrols.

 

[Haplo]

I disagree. The important capstone for an AT is getting Surprise Spells at AT level 10. Before that, he's mostly focused on single-target and CC. Afterwards, he can delete whole encounters with the likes of Stormbolts (again, far superior to other damage spells - barring Hellfire Ray for single targets, of course). Also the capstone makes dual damage no save spells, such as Vulcanic Eruption, A LOT stronger.

 

[Sjukob]

I disagree. The important capstone for an AT is getting Surprise Spells at AT level 10. Before that, he's mostly focused on single-target and CC. Afterwards, he can delete whole encounters with the likes of Stormbolts (again, far superior to other damage spells - barring Hellfire Ray for single targets, of course). Also the capstone makes dual damage no save spells, such as Vulcanic Eruption, A LOT stronger.

I don't argue that it's important, but I've found that I don't care as much about it when my empowered lightning bolts and dragon breaths hit for 100+ damage at levels 8-10. And scorching ray can score these numbers:

 

[Cael]

HP doubled in 3E and its derivatives. Dealing damage with spells is sub-optimal. Wizard vs. Sorcerer advantages comes down to challenges of the game. PFKM favors the the wizard because of AT implementation, abundant resources (money, scrolls, wands, rods, etc.), high utilization of skills, and slow leveling. The extra feats bolster the case as well. Furthermore, sorcerers won't receive their capstone bloodline powers until very late game. Most won't ever see their Level 20 power.

HP increased in 3E only in certain cases sub-level 10 (due to no cap on Con bonus for non-Fighter types). It is only after about level 10 that the HP increase is keenly felt.

 

[Yosharian]

I disagree. The important capstone for an AT is getting Surprise Spells at AT level 10. Before that, he's mostly focused on single-target and CC. Afterwards, he can delete whole encounters with the likes of Stormbolts (again, far superior to other damage spells - barring Hellfire Ray for single targets, of course). Also the capstone makes dual damage no save spells, such as Vulcanic Eruption, A LOT stronger.

I'm sorry what spell now? I can't find any info on any such spell in any databases online

 

[Haplo]

Guess the name is Volcanic Storm. A Fire version of Ice Storm, really.

 

[Yosharian]

Guess the name is Volcanic Storm. A Fire version of Ice Storm, really.

And it double dips on Sneak dice?

 

[Testownia]

Delterius Desiderius Is it just my first impression, or is Halcyon Druid outright superior to every other Druid archetype?

 

[Desiderius]

So what's the best archer build in Kingmaker?

Fighter gets lots of static damage increases like weapon specialization and Weapon Training, and a ton of extra feats.
Slayer has Studies Target, which gives similar +x/+x bonuses like Weapon Training. They also have Sneak Attack, but that's slightly harder to set up with ranged.
Ranger...gets nothing except some free feats and maybe a conditional bonus for favored enemy. Pets are OP though.

These are Rangers:

Spoiler

Amiri is two-handed Freebooter and Ekun is either pure Ranger or Ranger/Sacred Huntmaster.

Do not for any reason give Ekun non-pet levels or Okbo will suck.

Fighter Archer is just a worse Fighter. Fighter belongs in melee where he's dominant.

Slayer is great.

Spoiler

Although probably best two-handed ranged now that Wrath has items to support that. This was level 11 with bad gear from P:K:

Spoiler

AT archer and ES Archer are also both very solid and can unload the big spells as needed:

Spoiler

But Inquistor is probably the best:

 

[Desiderius]

Delterius Desiderius Is it just my first impression, or is Halcyon Druid outright superior to every other Druid archetype?

The new classes haven't really been implemented yet. Classes with extra spells are always nice of course but it's only alternative action economy not straight up improvement, so if what you had was already good alternatives aren't always better. d20 says you lose your Head Slot? That would be a major, major drawback.

 

[Desiderius]

Oh, I forgot, Eldritch Archer is fun too.

Heh, now that Arrow of Law is actually good in Wrath EA/Devilbane Priest (or Oracle?)/MT with a bunch of meta Arrows of Law could actually be good.

 

[Testownia]

Delterius Desiderius Is it just my first impression, or is Halcyon Druid outright superior to every other Druid archetype?

The new classes haven't really been implemented yet. Classes with extra spells are always nice of course but it's only alternative action economy not straight up improvement, so if what you had was already good alternatives aren't always better. d20 says you lose your Head Slot? That would be a major, major drawback.

Thanks, I've also noticed that Holic added Theurgy, so now Mystic Theurge is more viable than ever.

 

[Desiderius]

I disagree. The important capstone for an AT is getting Surprise Spells at AT level 10. Before that, he's mostly focused on single-target and CC. Afterwards, he can delete whole encounters with the likes of Stormbolts (again, far superior to other damage spells - barring Hellfire Ray for single targets, of course). Also the capstone makes dual damage no save spells, such as Vulcanic Eruption, A LOT stronger.

I don't argue that it's important, but I've found that I don't care as much about it when my empowered lightning bolts and dragon breaths hit for 100+ damage at levels 8-10. And scorching ray can score these numbers:

Agreed. First blush is that nuking is bad but once you take Metamagic into account it's just as viable as control and best approch is to be able to offer both depending on challenge.

Battering Blast does work with Spellstrike but it had to come from Magus Spellbook? I recently tested an old EScion/Cleric/MT build and now Cleric spells like Bestow Curse are working with Spellstrike so it's worth another try.