Pathfinder Pathfinder: Kingmaker Builds and Strats Thread

[Cael]

You can. Although sometimes it seems a bit wonky.

While I doubt it is intentional (and is therefore a bug), in PnP, there can be issues with things like AoO with reach weapons from the back row. The problem comes, wait for it, from concealment. Yep, that frakking word again. Don't you just love how many times in so many different context and meaning the %$&$%# twats at WotC used it in 3.x?

It goes something like this:
1. You gain a concealment AC bonus of +4 if there is someone between you and someone trying to target you with a weapon. The other guy also gets a to-hit penalty of -4 for firing into a melee, which Improved Precise Shot negates, but that is another story.
2. However, you cannot perform a AoO on someone if he has a concealment bonus.
3. You can't attempt a AoO on someone if there is someone between you and him unless you can somehow see over the intervening guy (e.g., Enlarge Person spell).

 

[vazha]

Magus does requires more micromanagement to make use of those abilities in game though, spellcombat in particular. I've made the switch to EK and I'm happier for it. Level 8 now, got me a nice mithral breastplate, feats to reduce spell failure to zero, already more spells than a magus, comparable attack and AC,... I do miss spellstrike, but for your basic buff-and-wade-in-sword-swinging the character feels perfectly fine. And he will only get better as his spellcasting pulls away. Sure, it's a dex focused character, but even magus only gets medium armor at level 7, and heavy at 13.

True, that chapter 2 mithral armor is a gamechanger. If you’re willing to do the extreme micromanagement, though, Magus really shines. High AC enemy? Time to spend a point from the pool and apply my INT bonus to my chance to hit (extra satisfying when you already have spell lined up from a missed spellstrike).

VentilatorOfDoom your arcane pool gets 1 point every other level + your INT bonus. So at level 8 right now, I have 10 (18 INT with a + 4 INT headband). .

why do this when you can cast true strike, a lvl 1 spell, which will give you +20 increase to attack instead? iirc that magus ability is not affected by enduring blade and last for one turn or somesuch.
Also, Eldritch scion is better than EK for a specialized builds while EK is superior when it comes to two hander mage knights who just buff and then smash.

Well True Strike only lasts for one attack, and you don't have infinite level 1 casts either...

right now its duration is 12 seconds for me. I manage to get 2 attacks +bite into it. I wonder whether you can extend it though

 

[Cael]

You gain 50% concealment when invisible. The concealment is an effect of invisibility.

When you remove invisibility, then none of the effects of invisibility applies unless otherwise specified. Glitterdust, by revealing invisible creatures, negates the concealment from invisibility. It need not be specifically mentioned.

So, what does Displacement grant?

Displacement grants concealment that is not affected by Glitterdust because it is not concealment caused by invisibility. It is even noted in the spell that unlike Invisibility, it does allow people to target the creature (you can't with Invisibility). Note also that in the spell description for Displacement, True Sight specifically reveals the true location of the creature and therefore negates the concealment.

Think of Displacement being a bending of light waves to make the creature seem to be in a different spot. Glitterdust still coats the creature, but that was never the problem. Glitterdust does not negate the light bending.

Does it make complete sense? No. But is that how the game mechanics interact? Yes.

Do you even read my posts, Cael? I literally wrote the exact same thing a page ago

Not after you said that revealing invisible creatures somehow doesn't turn off all effects granted by invisibility. Bringing Displacement into the picture was trying to move the goalposts.

 

[Cael]

Magus does requires more micromanagement to make use of those abilities in game though, spellcombat in particular. I've made the switch to EK and I'm happier for it. Level 8 now, got me a nice mithral breastplate, feats to reduce spell failure to zero, already more spells than a magus, comparable attack and AC,... I do miss spellstrike, but for your basic buff-and-wade-in-sword-swinging the character feels perfectly fine. And he will only get better as his spellcasting pulls away. Sure, it's a dex focused character, but even magus only gets medium armor at level 7, and heavy at 13.

True, that chapter 2 mithral armor is a gamechanger. If you’re willing to do the extreme micromanagement, though, Magus really shines. High AC enemy? Time to spend a point from the pool and apply my INT bonus to my chance to hit (extra satisfying when you already have spell lined up from a missed spellstrike).

VentilatorOfDoom your arcane pool gets 1 point every other level + your INT bonus. So at level 8 right now, I have 10 (18 INT with a + 4 INT headband). .

why do this when you can cast true strike, a lvl 1 spell, which will give you +20 increase to attack instead? iirc that magus ability is not affected by enduring blade and last for one turn or somesuch.
Also, Eldritch scion is better than EK for a specialized builds while EK is superior when it comes to two hander mage knights who just buff and then smash.

Well True Strike only lasts for one attack, and you don't have infinite level 1 casts either...

right now its duration is 12 seconds for me. I manage to get 2 attacks +bite into it. I wonder whether you can extend it though

No. The original spell doesn't have a duration that can be extended. It is not supposed to affect more than 1 attack, although I suspect that NWN had a hand in this misunderstanding. NWN gave True Strike a duration of 9 seconds.

 

[vazha]

Oh and with eldritch scion its cha bonus, not int bonus which ties so sweetly into a pally dip build

 

[ArchAngel]

Btw if you want to greatly screw the endgame, roll some sort of char with absurd innate amount of DR not dependant on spells + collect all DR items.

That is my plan for Amiri. It is why she will stay pure barbarian as long as possible and she will get all 3 rage powers that give DR and I will try to get her an adamantine armor for end game.

 

[ArchAngel]

VentilatorOfDoom your arcane pool gets 1 point every other level + your INT bonus. So at level 8 right now, I have 10 (18 INT with a + 4 INT headband). That’s ten one-minute long uses of the +2 enhancement, going to +3 at level 9. I usually give myself keen or 1d6 elemental damage instead.

By comparison, Amiri usually runs out of rage before my Magus runs out of his arcane pool. Even with extra rage, she only gets about 25 rounds per rest, so less than three minutes total, even if it’s easier to ration. I use it like rage: not in extremely trivial fights, but still much more often than not. And I’m not resting that often—too many timed quests.

Well 10min isn't all that much when in a long dungeon. Still, better than barbarian rage by several orders of magnitude. Bard Song as well, really, making these abilities last for a single combat round per charge makes them significantly weaker than in past DnD games.

Does the keen from the magus ability stack with improved critical?

No, bard song and rage are way better than before. Before at first few levels you could bard song or rage once per day. Then two times per day. For a very long time rage and song was something you saved for bosses making your class trademark abilities mostly useless.

Now you have rounds and full control on how many you want to spend. Get Lingering song for your bard and you can turn off bard song as soon as you see battle going your way.
With barbarian, don't use rage in round one. Wait until you see if it is even needed for this battle or until you face an enemy that needs to go down faster.

 

[Serus]

Is it worth dipping for a level of either rogue or vivisectionist for a paladin to get the sneak attack or am I better off just going straight pally?

Compare the level 20 benefit to the other class' level 1 benefit.

That's not really accurate, because dipping one level of X gives you that advantage immediately, whereas the level 20 benefit will only be gotten for the last few hours of the game will never be of benefit because the game will end around level 16~18.

It's more accurate to say that you need to compare the advantage of dipping X to delaying all your main class' abilities by one level.

Corrected.

 

[Serus]

fact:
archer fighter is the best build

Not really. A fighter/vivisectionist or fighter/rogue on the other hand... Come on, with sneak attack being applied to ranged combat there is no point NOT getting at least a few d6s of sneak damage. Say Fighter 8 or 12/Vivi or Rogue X will give you most of what you'd get going pure fighter but end dealing more damage AND having some added versatility on top of that.

 

[Cael]

fact:
archer fighter is the best build

Not really. A fighter/vivisectionist or fighter/rogue on the other hand... Come on, with sneak attack being applied to ranged combat there is no point NOT getting at least a few d6s of sneak damage. Fighter8 or 12/Vivi or Rogue X will give you most of what you'd get goind a pure fighter but end dealing more damage AND having some added versatility.

If you can reliably trigger sneak attack at range, then yes, you want your ranged damage dealer to have sneak attack. The real problem with sneak attackers is that they don't have a way to reliably trigger sneak attack at range other than Improved Invisibility. Owlcat dropped the ball when they made it so that as long as 2 people are next to the target, it is considered flanked for everyone.

 

[Serus]

fact:
archer fighter is the best build

Not really. A fighter/vivisectionist or fighter/rogue on the other hand... Come on, with sneak attack being applied to ranged combat there is no point NOT getting at least a few d6s of sneak damage. Fighter8 or 12/Vivi or Rogue X will give you most of what you'd get goind a pure fighter but end dealing more damage AND having some added versatility.

If you can reliably trigger sneak attack at range, then yes, you want your ranged damage dealer to have sneak attack. The real problem with sneak attackers is that they don't have a way to reliably trigger sneak attack at range other than Improved Invisibility. Owlcat dropped the ball when they made it so that as long as 2 people are next to the target, it is considered flanked for everyone.

Yes they did indeed. And yes, apparently in pnp it works differently. But that's what we are talking about here, the computer game called Pathfinder: Kingmaker.

 

[Elex]

Has anyone experimented with reach weapons? Can you perform combat moves like Cleave from the backrow? I read online that apparently many of the combat moves don't work with reach weapons.

cleave work and stack with enlarge person.
you want enlarge 24h and haste 24h
look at the yellowish circle under the character.
with a reach weapon you generally want to go deep in the feat cleave line

when an enlarged twf with a glaive crit (100+ damage) that mean another enemy is going to get a cleave and probally die and cleave another enemy etc... etc..
doing that requires tons of feats. not good for non pure fighter.

 

[Cael]

fact:
archer fighter is the best build

Not really. A fighter/vivisectionist or fighter/rogue on the other hand... Come on, with sneak attack being applied to ranged combat there is no point NOT getting at least a few d6s of sneak damage. Fighter8 or 12/Vivi or Rogue X will give you most of what you'd get goind a pure fighter but end dealing more damage AND having some added versatility.

If you can reliably trigger sneak attack at range, then yes, you want your ranged damage dealer to have sneak attack. The real problem with sneak attackers is that they don't have a way to reliably trigger sneak attack at range other than Improved Invisibility. Owlcat dropped the ball when they made it so that as long as 2 people are next to the target, it is considered flanked for everyone.

Yes they DID indeed. That's what we are talking about here, the computer game called Pathfinder: Kingmaker.

I am glad you noticed, but no need to tell me all about it. Your level of mental cognition is of completely no interest to me.

 

[Serus]

Has anyone experimented with reach weapons? Can you perform combat moves like Cleave from the backrow? I read online that apparently many of the combat moves don't work with reach weapons.

cleave work and stack with enlarge person.
you want enlarge 24h and haste 24h
look at the yellowish circle under the character.
with a reach weapon you generally want to go deep in the feat cleave line

when an enlarged twf with a glaive crit (100+ damage) that mean another enemy is going to get a cleave and probally die and cleave another enemy etc... etc..
doing that requires tons of feats. not good for non pure fighter.

Or rogues since you can get combat trick any number of times in P:K right now, which means a rogue can have as many feats as a fighter more or less. Talk about balanced.

 

[Elex]

Has anyone experimented with reach weapons? Can you perform combat moves like Cleave from the backrow? I read online that apparently many of the combat moves don't work with reach weapons.

cleave work and stack with enlarge person.
you want enlarge 24h and haste 24h
look at the yellowish circle under the character.
with a reach weapon you generally want to go deep in the feat cleave line

when an enlarged twf with a glaive crit (100+ damage) that mean another enemy is going to get a cleave and probally die and cleave another enemy etc... etc..
doing that requires tons of feats. not good for non pure fighter.

Or rogues since you can get combat trick any number of times in P:K right now, which means a rogue can have as many feats as a fighter more or less. Talk about balanced.

a str based two handed reach weapon power attack /cleave rouge?

that sould like 300 damage crit in this game

 

[Elex]

what about defender of the true world?

 

[Cael]

Has anyone experimented with reach weapons? Can you perform combat moves like Cleave from the backrow? I read online that apparently many of the combat moves don't work with reach weapons.

cleave work and stack with enlarge person.
you want enlarge 24h and haste 24h
look at the yellowish circle under the character.
with a reach weapon you generally want to go deep in the feat cleave line

when an enlarged twf with a glaive crit (100+ damage) that mean another enemy is going to get a cleave and probally die and cleave another enemy etc... etc..
doing that requires tons of feats. not good for non pure fighter.

Or rogues since you can get combat trick any number of times in P:K right now, which means a rogue can have as many feats as a fighter more or less. Talk about balanced.

a str based two handed reach weapon power attack /cleave rouge?

that sould like 300 damage crit in this game

Sneak attack shouldn't be affected by a crit... unless Owlcat dropped the ball... again.

 

[Haplo]

Has anyone experimented with reach weapons? Can you perform combat moves like Cleave from the backrow? I read online that apparently many of the combat moves don't work with reach weapons.

cleave work and stack with enlarge person.
you want enlarge 24h and haste 24h
look at the yellowish circle under the character.
with a reach weapon you generally want to go deep in the feat cleave line

when an enlarged twf with a glaive crit (100+ damage) that mean another enemy is going to get a cleave and probally die and cleave another enemy etc... etc..
doing that requires tons of feats. not good for non pure fighter.

Or rogues since you can get combat trick any number of times in P:K right now, which means a rogue can have as many feats as a fighter more or less. Talk about balanced.

Or Vivisectionists, who can also get Combat Trick on their Discovery (even) levels.
Plus +8 Str and/or Dex and Con (eventually). And +8 mutagen Natural AC, +11 from buffs, plus a few other buffs, like Shield, Enlarge and so on.

 

[Serus]

Has anyone experimented with reach weapons? Can you perform combat moves like Cleave from the backrow? I read online that apparently many of the combat moves don't work with reach weapons.

cleave work and stack with enlarge person.
you want enlarge 24h and haste 24h
look at the yellowish circle under the character.
with a reach weapon you generally want to go deep in the feat cleave line

when an enlarged twf with a glaive crit (100+ damage) that mean another enemy is going to get a cleave and probally die and cleave another enemy etc... etc..
doing that requires tons of feats. not good for non pure fighter.

Or rogues since you can get combat trick any number of times in P:K right now, which means a rogue can have as many feats as a fighter more or less. Talk about balanced.

Or Vivisectionists, who can also get Combat Trick on their Discovery (even) levels.
Plus +8 Str and/or Dex and Con (eventually). And +8 mutagen Natural AC, +11 from buffs.

You can? Damn, I didn't realize that. And you can even enlarge yourself with a vivisectionist assuming 11+ intelligence.
Ok, so maybe a Two Hander Fighter 4/Vivi X with a glaive? Or Fighter 1/Vivi X ?

 

[Haplo]

Has anyone experimented with reach weapons? Can you perform combat moves like Cleave from the backrow? I read online that apparently many of the combat moves don't work with reach weapons.

cleave work and stack with enlarge person.
you want enlarge 24h and haste 24h
look at the yellowish circle under the character.
with a reach weapon you generally want to go deep in the feat cleave line

when an enlarged twf with a glaive crit (100+ damage) that mean another enemy is going to get a cleave and probally die and cleave another enemy etc... etc..
doing that requires tons of feats. not good for non pure fighter.

Or rogues since you can get combat trick any number of times in P:K right now, which means a rogue can have as many feats as a fighter more or less. Talk about balanced.

a str based two handed reach weapon power attack /cleave rouge?

that sould like 300 damage crit in this game

More or less what I'm building with my Vivisectionist. 300 damage is probably a bit high, since sneak attack damage is not supposed to be multiplied on crits. But was sometimes scoring 90+ crits at level 4 with a longspear and finishing & great cleave.

1 Fighter / Vivi X
I passed on level 20 True Mutagen, seeing how I'm not likely to reach level 20 anyway... and if I did I'd not enjoy it long, as opposed to Fighter bonus feats here & now... but I do want Greater/Grand Mutagens ASAP (Grand offers+8 Str already, just less Dex, Con & AC), as well as Haste, Displacement, Echolocation, Death Ward, Stoneskin, Greater Invisibility, Freedom, Fluid Form (if in), Legendary Proportions, Elemental Body III & Transformation ASAP. Okay, the last 3 will be pretty end game I suppose.

But I also invest in Trip. With all those Mutagen & buff bonuses to both Strenght & Dex, size bonuses from buffs, Fury Fall & Tandem Trip he should be a solid tripper.
Of course, not much room for Preserve Organs then, but oh well.

 

[Yosharian]

Insane crits is cute and all, but the real measure of an OP physical build is how much damage it does on average per round, not how much damage it does every 20th attack or so when a crit lands.

You can build an Arcane Trickster that does 400+ average damage per round in dragon form. Through physical attacks, not talking about that Sneak Attack spell ray abuse that'll get patched.

 

[vazha]

Dragonkind is pure cheatery godmode though.

 

[Yosharian]

Dragonkind is pure cheatery godmode though.

Pretty much, haha

 

[ArchAngel]

fact:
archer fighter is the best build

Not really. A fighter/vivisectionist or fighter/rogue on the other hand... Come on, with sneak attack being applied to ranged combat there is no point NOT getting at least a few d6s of sneak damage. Fighter8 or 12/Vivi or Rogue X will give you most of what you'd get goind a pure fighter but end dealing more damage AND having some added versatility.

If you can reliably trigger sneak attack at range, then yes, you want your ranged damage dealer to have sneak attack. The real problem with sneak attackers is that they don't have a way to reliably trigger sneak attack at range other than Improved Invisibility. Owlcat dropped the ball when they made it so that as long as 2 people are next to the target, it is considered flanked for everyone.

Yes they did indeed. And yes, apparently in pnp it works differently. But that's what we are talking about here, the computer game called Pathfinder: Kingmaker.

Even with me warning you all every few pages, still people talk with Cael even when it is clear he is not playing this game and he is only shitposting on P:KM topics.

 

[Serus]

I have another question regarding the implementation of rules from pnp. Does Overhand Chop (level 3 Two Handed Fighter) applies to things like AoOs or cleaves? Pope Amole II in his YT Amiri build assumed that it did. But it's not supposed to work that way in pnp to my knowledge. But then many things in the game don't work as they do in pnp so maybe he's correct and Overhand Chop does indeed apply in the computer game to all kind of triggered attacks including cleaves and AoOs. Anyone has some insight? About the computer game implementation if that's not clear to "some" people.