Pathfinder Pathfinder: Kingmaker Builds and Strats Thread

[Luckmann]

how is the challenge rating judged in pathfinder? cr3 is what, versus 1 PC of 3rd char level? versus 4 characters of 3rd level each?

https://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/#Table-CR-Equivalencies

Add up the XP of all the monsters you're including

Total XP should equal the amount shown on this table, where the CR is equal to the party's average level.

If you have 6 players, you add 1 to the party's average level. So 6 level 1 adventurers have an average level of 1+1=2.

Black Bear has XP of 800, which makes it a CR3 encounter when alone. That's 'Challenging', according to Pathfinder (APL+1):

Difficulty Challenge Rating Equals
Easy APL –1
Average APL
Challenging APL +1
Hard APL +2
Epic APL +3

A Black Bear could definitely kill a PC in one turn if you got lucky.

BUT

The trick to good GMing is to look at the skills and abilities the bear has. The bear can swim very well. So, you can use this creature anytime the PCs try to swim across a river, for example. In the middle of their swim, a Black Bear appears, and attacks the party while they're swimming.

Also, the bear is fucking FAST. You could use this monster effectively to chase down a wounded PC, grapple it, and kill it.

So yeah, if you make the fight fair, the Bear's going to get fucked. The trick is not to make the fight fair, by utilizing the creature's abilities/skills.

Also, as a 'Challenging' encounter, the Bear is not supposed to TPK the party. It's only supposed to stand a decent chance at killing one of them, perhaps. And with 3 attacks per round and auto-grapple, it could definitely do that.

That's a good DM making good use of the narrative nature of the game in an unconstrained environment. The issue here is that none of that applies in a CRPG. Unfortunately. It's fun to run down characters fleeing across a meadow.

 

[panda]

More pointlessfunny numbers

 

[Shadenuat]

Yeah but single creatures are notoriously weak against parties, even when the CR is appropriate. Action economy is a bitch.

Of course but this bear will die at the end of the Amiri's charge animation even when nobody else does anything. It will die when my archer shoots his first arrow into his flatfooted AC. Right?

https://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/magical-beasts/owlbear/
AC 15, lolwut? worth 1,200 XP

Yes, clearly we need more PnP stats.

The standard CR is balanced around idea that party will go through multiples of those. Like, throw 6 of these things to completely drain party resources. This is a resource-draining balance.

Throwing +1-2-3 higher levels is actually a fight which would make party use everything and have a chance to die.

Naturally as Yosharian pointed out, a myriad of little details can make weak creature actually dangerous.

But, you can't make every encounter in a very big game with a myriad of little details. So devs just balanced enemies with an expectations of player always fightning EFFECTIVELY, meaning not taking a lot of damage. And also implemented many things to discourage restscumming.

When I even as tried to hint on the idea that, perhaps, you should not take damage in combat as you go through regular encounters, steam dudes were very surprised: HOW IS IT - FIGHT AND NOT TAKE DAMAG????

How do you explain the idea of rationing hitpoints and defensive spells, CC spells and using ranged weapons, and everything, that allows me to go through dungeons like Act 4 tomb or Armag tomb with 1 rest?
You can't sadly.

And you even have that disease wash onto Codex shores as well. "Why would I use consumables? it is wasteful" "Why should I try harder stuff later??" "Why are 30+ point buy companions are so weak??"

I will tell you why
Fucking DECLINE that is why.

 

[VentilatorOfDoom]

So if you have a sneaky PC off on his own a bit, boom, Owlbear appears, no chance you're hiding from him, auto-grapples you before you get a chance to run (has high Initiative), kills you in one round with some lucky hits.

If you have a situation where the party unexpectedly finds themselves in darkness, boom Owlbear appears, you can't see shit but he can, kills a party member before you can see what the fuck is going on

47 HP is actually quite a problem if you don't deal with it quickly

Kick ass imaginery scenario. I'm unsure what that has to do with the game other than that in PnP an actual human behind the monsters can make stuff more interesting than the monster stats suggest. I disagree that 47 HP are a problem when coupled with an AC of 15.

 

[Cael]

No one is saying you can't have a challenge. As I said, turn the difficulty up. You can still have the same challenge you have now.

The problem is basically one group saying, "I want the default here!" and the other saying, "No! Here is better!"

Yet, when marketing to a target group, they should take priority, not others, no matter how monocled they believe themselves to be. And let's face it, Pathfinder is aimed at Paizotards, not Codexians.

Given how the game actually is, there seems to be no truth to this statement.

Also, it absolutely matters how a game is tuned at the default level. All other assumptions in the game revolves around that, includijg relative difficulties, which in this case are not tuned at all, but works as blanket bonuses or penalties. This game would never have worked the same way if it was tuned for you and yours, and it would've been worse off because of it, in nearly every single way.

Also, your criticism framed in terms of 'it should follow the PF tabletop because it should' rings extremely hollow considering that you seem to have no appreciation for PF or Paizo anyway, nor seem to have actually played PF:K.

You see, this is where you get stupid.

It is not the difficulty level that is the problem. Pathfinder is aimed at Pathfinder fans first and everyone else second. Otherwise, why bother putting the Pathfinder label on it? When you don't follow the Pathfinder ruleset (i.e., correct CR for the expected party), you will run into problems when Pathfinder fans play the game expecting that level of difficulty. And since they are getting their ass handed to them on a level that is the "standard" difficulty they are expecting, they will complain. Which is exactly what is happening on Steam.

It is a problem with managing expectations, managing your fanbase and managing marketing. From a marketing point of view, they should have set the difficulty at the Pathfinder standard.

The fact that you are pleasantly surprised at how difficult the game was is actually a bad thing for Paizo. Yes, it is difficult. And yes, it is fun because it is difficult. BUT it is a fucking marketing failure because of all that as it is not what the Paizotards were expecting. Paizo is forsaking their fanbase to cater to you, which is a bloody stupid thing to do from a sales and marketing point of view. Get it through your head: What you or I think is incline is not what Paizotards think is incline, and Pathfinder is aimed at Paizotards first and foremost whether you like it or not.

 

[aweigh]

you can easily have a moment in your CRPG where the party has to trudge thru a slow mobility zone like a river and place some bears around there.

it ain't that hard y'know?

 

[Shadenuat]

There is a SHITTON of times in this games when you sludge through slow mobility zone and have enemies on you. There are locations with bad weather and lightning and fey, and literally first of random encounters has dryad casting spiked stones, and then there is river fight against kobold archers later, etc.
The first goddamn fight out of tutorial has you luring enemies on traps and trying to ambush them in a pit of tar with arrows and bombs, and traps layered right near combat encounters is basically a standard in this game.

I'd say the quality of encounters drops to garbage only in Act VI, where in House At Edge of Time someone played too much of Fortress of Regrets and with alcohol shaking hands began copypasting same packs of CR15 dudes all over the place. Everything up to Irovetti Palace is better than average at least.

 

[Luckmann]

No one is saying you can't have a challenge. As I said, turn the difficulty up. You can still have the same challenge you have now.

The problem is basically one group saying, "I want the default here!" and the other saying, "No! Here is better!"

Yet, when marketing to a target group, they should take priority, not others, no matter how monocled they believe themselves to be. And let's face it, Pathfinder is aimed at Paizotards, not Codexians.

Given how the game actually is, there seems to be no truth to this statement.

Also, it absolutely matters how a game is tuned at the default level. All other assumptions in the game revolves around that, includijg relative difficulties, which in this case are not tuned at all, but works as blanket bonuses or penalties. This game would never have worked the same way if it was tuned for you and yours, and it would've been worse off because of it, in nearly every single way.

Also, your criticism framed in terms of 'it should follow the PF tabletop because it should' rings extremely hollow considering that you seem to have no appreciation for PF or Paizo anyway, nor seem to have actually played PF:K.

You see, this is where you get stupid.

It is not the difficulty level that is the problem. Pathfinder is aimed at Pathfinder fans first and everyone else second. Otherwise, why bother putting the Pathfinder label on it? When you don't follow the Pathfinder ruleset (i.e., correct CR for the expected party), you will run into problems when Pathfinder fans play the game expecting that level of difficulty. And since they are getting their ass handed to them on a level that is the "standard" difficulty they are expecting, they will complain. Which is exactly what is happening on Steam.

It is a problem with managing expectations, managing your fanbase and managing marketing. From a marketing point of view, they should have set the difficulty at the Pathfinder standard.

The fact that you are pleasantly surprised at how difficult the game was is actually a bad thing for Paizo. Yes, it is difficult. And yes, it is fun because it is difficult. BUT it is a fucking marketing failure because of all that as it is not what the Paizotards were expecting. Paizo is forsaking their fanbase to cater to you, which is a bloody stupid thing to do from a sales and marketing point of view. Get it through your head: What you or I think is incline is not what Paizotards think is incline, and Pathfinder is aimed at Paizotards first and foremost whether you like it or not.

So now you've moved from "it's bad" to "it's bad marketing", based entirely on an assumption that they made the game for paizotards (or at least marketed it towars them and them specifically, which actually has nothing to do with the quality or the development of the game whatosever).

And I don't think any of us could give any less of a shit what is bad for Paizo, and considering that you hate Paizo too, it's a wonder that you've gotten so hung up on this, making your criticism, if even possible, ring more hollow. At this point, it's so hollow it might as well not make any sound.

you can easily have a moment in your CRPG where the party has to trudge thru a slow mobility zone like a river and place some bears around there.


it ain't that hard y'know?

Making it relevant in a way as described earlier is actually really hard in this format, and would require a lot of work, especially considering that there might be just one encounter with, say, a bear where you'd have to make assets and animation for all that, nevermind a large enough area to make it relevant, nevermind make a player flee in some direction or get turned around to seperate them in ways that are just unreasonable in an isometric or top-down environment where everything is seen by a single player in control of all the player characters.

I'm not sure if you have any PnP experience, but I think all of us that does would love to see more scenarios like that, includimg owlbears waiting around trees and shit, but we all realize it's unrealistic in this type of game.

As for simple slow-mobility zones (also known as Difficult Terrain, you plebian), those are fucking everywhere (and poorly conveyed, but that's another matter).

 

[Elex]

I actually tested and compared some enemies to Pathfinder, mainly I was interested in Wild Hunt, and using Bestiary 6 found out that endgame enemies are almost entirely accurate to the book up to saving throws, DC on their abilities, resists and immunities - on Normal.

well this is surprising, it’s sorta of logical for the pnp module be easier early but then become harder and try to kill some player at the end of the story.

instead a crpg don’t need that because of saves and death door mechanic.

 

[Elex]

Spoiler

You chose the worst fucking example, but since you are not playing this game but only shitposting here I can understand.

That bear was changed for story reasons, not because of some more challenging design goal. That is a fey version of a normal bear, it is supposed to show players early what kind of shit is awaiting them later. PnP campaign (I was told) has Fey shit suddenly come out of nowhere, so Owlcat (possibly with advice of MCA) decided to introduce some of the elements earlier so it fits better in a computer version.


EDIT: But since the autist called Cael has me on ignore he will not learn this and just continue spouting his garbage on this page while pretending he knows what he is talking about while not actually playing the game (I don't think he even played Pathfinder on tabletop).

It was likely not necessary to be adviced by MCA. If you look up the AP and the discussions on it, it's an *extremely* common criticism of the default AP as it was originally published.

Spoiler

And if it's one advice you'll consistently get when talking to veterans, it's "foreshadow more". If you read the AP as-written, it really comes from nowhere.


Now, I think that they might've foreshadowed to the point of it being all too obvious, down to downright spoiler it, but even that is honestly better, giving you an idea of what's going on, even if it's overarching.

And jesus christ, dude, spoiler tags.

well the game foreshadow since the class selection
“why we have that aldori class” “oh i see”
“why the druid have two fey related subclass” “ahh i get it”

 

[Cael]

Lets take a look at a cr3 bear.
https://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/animals/bear/black-bear/

AC 17. What exactly is this bear gonna do against a party of 6 except dieing in the first combat round without having caused as much as a single point of damage?

You don't send a CR 3 enemy against a party of 6 level 3s as a boss because that party is supposed to go through 6x CR3 encounters before even thinking of resting.

And that is following strictly the wealth-by-level table which is the major constraint of PnP play, and the major reason why PnP players don't like using consumables. They prefer to save their money to buy/make better equipment because every consumable you use is taken from that WBL. A level 3 character, for example, should have 2700gp each worth of equipment and consumables and stuff, none of which should have a value of more than 1350gp. That is the standard. Every potion of a level 1 spell you drink is (50+material components) gp off that. Every scroll is (25+material components) gp. Level 2 spells is geometrically higher, with pots being 300gp and scrolls being 150gp, plus material component cost, of course.

Using consumables with abandon in PnP play will kill you later as you are starved of good gear.

Now, if you start throwing loot at the party, especially consumables, of course the balance will go to shit. When you start throwing in +5 equivalent weapons (which you are not even supposed to get until near level 20) with gay abandon at early levels, of course your players are going to carve their way through bad guys. Which is exactly what happened NWN and NWN2.

However, the fix is not stat inflation or throwing higher CR crap at the players. That merely means that everyone has to play the optimisation game or die, and that is assuming you know when to stop with the CR inflation. Let's look at a simple example:

A bog standard warrior Orc has 14 Str, 4hp and is CR 1/2. He is armed with a Falchion (2d4 18-20/x2, two-handed) and wearing Hide armour (AC 13). Therefore, he can do 2d4+3 with an attack bonus of +3. A threat to your level 1 Fighter with an AC of 17 and HP of 12, but not an overly big one.
Now, suppose I give him inflated stats: 16 Str, 7hp, AC 17 (increased Dex and +2 generic increase). Does 2d4+6 (increased Str and +2 generic bonus) damage with an attack bonus of +6 (increased Str and +2 generic bonus). Suddenly, that Orc goes from can hit you 35% of the time with 11 damage max (unless crit) to outright kill you without a crit 50% of the time. And it is still only CR 1/2, which means you will be facing this guy multiple times and in multiples per combat.

The solution? Stop giving players loot out the wazoo, especially consumable loot, and start designing the game to what it should be and is balanced for.

 

[Haplo]

Looking closer at the Freebooter Ranger archetype, I think it will be an obligatory dip in my parties. With 5 levels you get +2 untyped Attack bonus on chosen target for everyone and additional +2 Flanking Bonus (so +6 while Flanking with Outflank). 4 extra AB for everyone is comparable to what the Bard offers - but with much smaller level investment. You also get Combat Style feats at level 2 and 6.
Already made my Jaethal a Freebooter at level 6, guess I will teach her Weapon & Shield Style feats for some bashing action.

 

[Cael]

So now you've moved from "it's bad" to "it's bad marketing", based entirely on an assumption that they made the game for paizotards (or at least marketed it towars them and them specifically, which actually has nothing to do with the quality or the development of the game whatosever).

Oh for fuck's sake:

If they really want the spell but can't make a faithful implementation they should just set it to 1 round of stun/Fort. neg. and forget about deafness.

So, completely fucking useless since you cannot in any way depend on it to do anything, and even if it would, it'd just be a single round of Stunned? Also, "faithful implementation" is completely meaningless. Docusing on mirroring the PnP on principle is retarded.

Problem is, dude, it was marketed as a faithful adaption of the PnP modules to a computer game. That makes the criticism valid. Not that there is all that much that is faithful. The lazy stat bloat on mobs is a prime example.

The stat bloat is dependent on your difficulty settings, though. Lower-difficulty enemies are a more faithful PnP interpretation.

They replaced a CR3 bear with a treant bear. I am not sure if lowering the difficulty will bring back the CR 3 bear... There has been too many examples of crazy numbers to believe that the mobs are as intended by the PnP module. Setting a level 4 party against something with an AC of 41, for example. That is pretty off the wall.

Forget about the moaning about how hard the game is. That is merely the symptom of the problem. The problem is that the default setting shouldn't be where it is because the ruleset that the game is based on isn't like that at all. Paizo is a fucktard for allowing it to happen, but I have come to expect little but incompetence and stupidity from Paizo, so no need to comment further there. If Codexians want a bigger challenge, they are free to turn the difficulty up to non-Pathfinder levels. It shouldn't be that the difficulty needs to be turned down to get to the original difficulty levels. This is a user-friendliness and marketing problem. It is aimed at Paizotards, but the difficuty is not at Paizotard level. The Steam reviews are proof of this. While Codexians love to sneer at others, this time, the others do have a point. A point that, sadly, Codexians are unable to grasp because of the hat sitting on their nose.

I have been saying that from the start of this conversation thread.

 

[Stoned Ape]

Lets take a look at a cr3 bear.
https://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/animals/bear/black-bear/

A bog standard warrior Orc has 14 Str, 4hp and is CR 1/2. He is armed with a Falchion (2d4 18-20/x2, two-handed) and wearing Hide armour (AC 13). Therefore, he can do 2d4+3 with an attack bonus of +3. A threat to your level 1 Fighter with an AC of 17 and HP of 12, but not an overly big one.
Now, suppose I give him inflated stats: 16 Str, 7hp, AC 17 (increased Dex and +2 generic increase). Does 2d4+6 (increased Str and +2 generic bonus) damage with an attack bonus of +6 (increased Str and +2 generic bonus). Suddenly, that Orc goes from can hit you 35% of the time with 11 damage max (unless crit) to outright kill you without a crit 50% of the time. And it is still only CR 1/2, which means you will be facing this guy multiple times and in multiples per combat.

That is innacurate.


Orc (CR 1/3)

XP 135
Orc warrior 1
CE Medium humanoid
Init +0; Senses darkvision 60 ft.; Perception –1
Weakness light sensitivity

DEFENSE

AC 13, touch 10, flat-footed 13 (+3 armor)
hp 6 (1d10+1)
Fort +3, Ref +0, Will –1
Defensive Abilities ferocity

OFFENSE

Speed 30 ft.
Melee falchion +5 (2d4+4/18–20)
Ranged javelin +1 (1d6+3)

TACTICS

Before Combat Orcs make few preparations before combat, preferring to charge headlong at any foe that presents itself.

During Combat Orcs prefer to use two-handed weapons to maximize the effectiveness of their great strength. They attack in ambushes from concealment to take an enemy off-guard and cause as much fear and confusion as possible.

Morale Orcs are bullies and cowards. They flee when the odds have turned against them and any nearby leaders are dead— or have already fled. They are prone to surrender and truces if such actions save their skins, although they honor such terms only as long as it is to their benefit to do so. Exceptions to this are dwarves and elves, from whom they neither ask nor give quarter.

STATISTICS

Str 17, Dex 11, Con 12, Int 7, Wis 8, Cha 6
Base Atk +1; CMB +4; CMD 14
Feats Weapon Focus (falchion)
Skills Intimidate +2
Languages Common, Orc
SQ weapon familiarity

SPECIAL ABILITIES

Ferocity (Ex)
An orc remains conscious and can continue fighting even if its hit point total is below 0. It is still staggered and loses 1 hit point each round. A creature with ferocity still dies when its hit point total reaches a negative amount equal to its Constitution score.

 

[hell bovine]

i'll have you know knowledge: basketweaving is of the utmost importance in my campaign buddy

 

[vazha]

Well, Aldori Defender class would fit even better, I guess. Duelling Swords resemble katanas (although are one-handed). Apparently there are many good Dueling Swords in this game. And it's a Fighter archetype, specializing in defense and disarming of its enemies. Non-monk humanoids are apparently affected quite a bit by that - as they try to make unarmed attacks, you get Attacks of Opportunity.

Aldori would be the best, yes, for its special feat. Also, you can get a rather nice (+2) dueling sword very early in the game if you manage to kill stag lord in 30 days, which is very much manageable on your second run or so. Also a couple of things to consider: if you go scaled fist and 2 lvl pally dip, you'll get cha bonus to ac, cha bonus to saves (will compensate for that low will save and send your fort and reflex saves into stratosphere) and godlike persuasion skills, also normal bab and smite evil (which, even if its unsuccessful, gives you bonuses if I remember correctly), at the cost of being a goody two-shoes. Also a vivi dip would be very tempting for another +4 dex and sneak attack (will also open your path to accomplished sneak attacker). All in all, it will be hell to pull off early, but mid-late game should be nigh unkillable with either swords or sorcery.

 

[Haplo]

That is an option, yes, but... you're delaying your "core" progression awfully far.

 

[vazha]

There is not much to delay to be honest - the best that magus / duelist can offer are clustered in the first four lvls or so, while with every dip you get very substantial and tangible rewards making you competent beyond what your cor3 progression would be at every lvl

 

[Haplo]

Fair enough. But I'd delay the Paladin levels till I got the most important stuff from the other classes.

 

[sebas]

So, considering the high enemy encounter rate and all the reasons to not rest often, is a full caster even worth it? I'm rolling with an Enchanter and I'm pretty much just loading up on wands, spells are way too valuable.

 

[ArchAngel]

So, considering the high enemy encounter rate and all the reasons to not rest often, is a full caster even worth it? I'm rolling with an Enchanter and I'm pretty much just loading up on wands, spells are way too valuable.

My Necromancer does well in my run. For some combats I just pew pew with a cantrip and let the fighters deal with stuff but when times comes to shine my character can do stuff others cannot.
Also game does not have a full sorcerer, wizard or druid companion so it is useful to be one of those.

 

[hell bovine]

So, considering the high enemy encounter rate and all the reasons to not rest often, is a full caster even worth it? I'm rolling with an Enchanter and I'm pretty much just loading up on wands, spells are way too valuable.

Depends on the caster type. My druid so far has been a walking barkskin dispenser, while Ms. Piggy does all the work. With a serpentine sorceress on the other hand (and currently with Tristian multiclassed as one) even low level enchantments were very useful, because of the bloodline ability. If you get lots of undead later on in the game(?), then the undead bloodline would be very useful too.

edit: For the same reason I could see a feyspeaker/serpentine sorcerer working, because spell dc is based on your casting stat and not caster level. And if they ever fix the "no armor" cleric, one of these mutliclassed with an empyreal sorcerer.

 

[Shadenuat]

Pure caster can solo endgame encounters.

Honestly after level 5 you already dominate and after levels 9-12 Wizard is unstoppable.

The way level progression goes in this game (i.e. every build should be theorycrafted to about level 15, that's when you have to be strongest) there are no companions that gain Arcane spells as fast as Wizard, and noone hits power thresholds as good as pure Wizard. Even Octavia with her pretty good build for a companion always feels like she is lagging behind a pure Wizard, and even with low amount of scrolls Wizard still plays better than a Sorc because every level gained is more important. You can probably screw around even more by running a party of 5 characters with XP sharing off to push yourself just a little bit over the edge and gain level 8 and even level 9 spells faster.

And if they ever also fill all the gaps in scrolls, pure Wizard would go from great to faceroll everything. They'd have to add some counters like enemy casters, counter spells and protection spells because single Prismatic Spray is already enough to break enemy encounters now. And Wizard + Octavia / Wizard merc is just too much, bosses boil like potatoes to twin Hellfire Rays etc. They tried to stack on many enemies a lot of Spell Resistance but you can still overcome it reliably enough (and some spells just ignore it).

 

[hell bovine]

and even with low amount of scrolls

Are they really that limited? I like my archmages pokemon style: gotta have 'em all; a wizard with limited spell selection just doesn't feel like one. And I even found a nice necromancer portrait.

 

[Haplo]

A question about Slashing grace. How does it interact with Agile weapons?

Overlaps? Unless you dual-wield, then slashing grace should be off.