Pathfinder Pathfinder: Kingmaker Builds and Strats Thread

[Zero Credibility]

so no other attacks with that two hander this round, apart from the free spellstrike one that came with the spell. Maybe something got lost in the translation to rtwp?

Why no other attacks? Where do your remaining 2 attacks go? The way it is now you can spellstrike once (with two-handed) per round and then deliver the remaining melee attacks without spell component if your bab allows so. Nowhere in the description does it say it takes away your remaining attacks. It says "you get one free [spellstrike] attack" - does it mean you get only one attack per round? I don't think so. The way it should be is 1 spellstike +remaining normal attacks.

To make it clear, I'm talking about how it works in P&P. When casting a spell you normally can't make any attacks in the same round, because you are using your action to cast a spell instead. Now, if said spell is a touch spell, you do get one free touch attack as part of its casting, and If you have spellstrike, you can use that instead for one free spellstrike attack. Spellcombat is a magus only thing that specifically allows you to cast a spell and still do all your attacks in that round, but for that you need a hand free. You are attacking with your main hand, while casting with your free hand, hence the -2 penalty to all attacks, like you are attacking with two weapons. How much of that is it in the game is another issue, as I said I did not get very far with my own magus.

 

[Parabalus]

arcane trickster can perform multiple simultaneous sneak attacks.
and also ignore many DR.

You mean in an AoE with the lvl 10 skill?

 

[Parabalus]

arcane trickster can perform multiple simultaneous sneak attacks.
and also ignore many DR.

You mean in an AoE with the lvl 10 skill?

Surprise spell is the capstone and yes, with it *every* damage spell is Sneaked. But it comes too late.

So how do you get multiple sneak attacks per round on one target, like Serus suggests?

 

[vazha]

so no other attacks with that two hander this round, apart from the free spellstrike one that came with the spell. Maybe something got lost in the translation to rtwp?

Why no other attacks? Where do your remaining 2 attacks go? The way it is now you can spellstrike once (with two-handed) per round and then deliver the remaining melee attacks without spell component if your bab allows so. Nowhere in the description does it say it takes away your remaining attacks. It says "you get one free [spellstrike] attack" - does it mean you get only one attack per round? I don't think so. The way it should be is 1 spellstike +remaining normal attacks.

To make it clear, I'm talking about how it works in P&P. When casting a spell you normally can't make any attacks in the same round, because you are using your action to cast a spell instead. Now, if said spell is a touch spell, you do get one free touch attack as part of its casting, and If you have spellstrike, you can use that instead for one free spellstrike attack. Spellcombat is a magus only thing that specifically allows you to cast a spell and still do all your attacks in that round, but for that you need a hand free. You are attacking with your main hand, while casting with your free hand, hence the -2 penalty to all attacks, like you are attacking with two weapons. How much of that is it in the game is another issue, as I said I did not get very far with my own magus.

That whole point becomes a moot one when it's allowed in the game to do spell strike with two handed weapon. Where's the other hand then? If I can do spellstrike only once per round and I have spell combat switched off, what happens with the remaining melee attacks that my bab allows? We arent talking about any spells, so the point of needing another hand or three is invalid. I do spellstrike, then I do my normal melee attacks per round. No?

 

[hell bovine]

True. But I haven't tried them out yet. How much damage per bomb?

Well, I'm playing a druid right now and frankly he feels inferior to my alchemist, and that one isn't even a greanadier. The druidic spell selection at lower levels is not much. You get a lot of mass aoe disablers, but no way to protect your own party until freedom of movement (I have yet to figure out what featherstep does in-game, because it seems to protect from nothing), alchemists with infusion are better party buffers, because they get both shield and barkskin, and serpentine sorcerers are better disablers, because their hold person works on magical beasts, while druids get hold animal, which would be useful if there were any dangerous animal to begin with.

Tbh, the only conclusion to my druid adventure so far is that I should have made him a sylvan sorcerer. My alchemist on the other hand was just rocking.
Edit: Grenadier gets precise bomb for free, but other alchemists can pick it up; mine got it at first level up.

 

[hell bovine]

Kit Walker
Which would be useful maybe if soloing. But I don't need summons (at least on challenging), because Valerie the turtle and my druid's boar can already tank everything, except for enraged owlbears. And these got held by Tristian (one level in serpentine sorcerer).

It's not that druids are useless, it's just that compared to the other classes I've tried (sorcerer and alchemist), they don't feel that powerful. Maybe if they were the only class to get the animal companion.

 

[Shadenuat]

a lot of mass aoe disablers, but no way to protect your own party

You can not step on them

roofles

 

[hell bovine]

a lot of mass aoe disablers, but no way to protect your own party

You can not step on them

roofles

But you can wait and wait and wait until they go away. Success!

 

[Zero Credibility]

That whole point becomes a moot one when it's allowed in the game to do spell strike with two handed weapon. Where's the other hand then? If I can do spellstrike only once per round and I have spell combat switched off, what happens with the remaining melee attacks that my bab allows? We arent talking about any spells, so the point of needing another hand or three is invalid. I do spellstrike, then I do my normal melee attacks per round. No?

I think I see what you are getting at. Maybe. You are asking what happens when you spellstrike on the round that you are not casting a spell, right? Spellstrike is just about delivering a spell through a weapon, that's it. Having a free touch attack or spellstrike is part of the spell. If you do not make that attack in the same round the spell is cast (you either miss, enemy drops dead, is out of range, whatever), the free attack is wasted. But the spell is not, touch spells can be "held" and delivered on the next round unless accidentally discharged. So in the next round you would still have your spellstrike - but it is no longer a free extra attack, but simply the first of your normal attacks that connects also delivers the spell.

 

[vazha]

That whole point becomes a moot one when it's allowed in the game to do spell strike with two handed weapon. Where's the other hand then? If I can do spellstrike only once per round and I have spell combat switched off, what happens with the remaining melee attacks that my bab allows? We arent talking about any spells, so the point of needing another hand or three is invalid. I do spellstrike, then I do my normal melee attacks per round. No?

I think I see what you are getting at. Maybe. You are asking what happens when you spellstrike on the round that you are not casting a spell, right? Spellstrike is just about delivering a spell through a weapon, that's it. Having a free touch attack or spellstrike is part of the spell. If you do not make that attack in the same round the spell is cast (you either miss, enemy drops dead, is out of range, whatever), the free attack is wasted. But the spell is not, touch spells can be "held" and delivered on the next round unless accidentally discharged. So in the next round you would still have your spellstrike - but it is no longer a free extra attack, but simply the first of your normal attacks that connects also delivers the spell.

Wait wait wait. So I spellstrike - I miss - the spell stays charged and i cannot attack with my remaining attacks in that round? That's ridiculous if true. I believe if you miss both touchie and your attack are wasted and you go on whacking the enemy with your sword until the next round where you can attempt it again as long as you have a touch spell available.

 

[Zero Credibility]

You cast a touch spell and get a free spellstrike attack in this round as part of the casting. This is the only attack you can make in this round, as the standard action in this round was spent on casting your spell. You then miss with this one attack, but the spell is not wasted. In the next round you choose not to cast another spell but attack normally (wise, as casting any other spell will discharge the one you are holding). You get your normal number of attacks, whatever that is. The first one that hits becomes a spellstrike and delivers a spell. If all miss, you can try again the next round. Is this clearer?

 

[vazha]

This doesn't seem very logical at all. The description clearly says: Instead of spell touch attack you get a free melee attack. Free! Melee! You're delivering this spell via melee attack! Therefore other, subsequent melee attacks in this round should not be wasted! Yes! And I think that's how the game handles it.
Yosharian ArchAngel VentilatorOfDoom Guys help me out there :/

 

[Parabalus]

arcane trickster can perform multiple simultaneous sneak attacks.
and also ignore many DR.

You mean in an AoE with the lvl 10 skill?

Surprise spell is the capstone and yes, with it *every* damage spell is Sneaked. But it comes too late.

So how do you get multiple sneak attacks per round on one target, like Serus suggests?

Level 2 scorching ray and later helfire ray. No save.

Isn't this a bug, if it triggers multiple sneak attacks? Google says this is incorrect per PnP (Cael) , but it might make AT attractive.

Will try it when Octavia levels up.

 

[panda]

Spellstrike is just touch spell discharge via weapon instead of palm. What so hard to understand?

 

[ArchAngel]

This doesn't seem very logical at all. The description clearly says: Instead of spell touch attack you get a free melee attack. Free! Melee! You're delivering this spell via melee attack! Therefore other, subsequent melee attacks in this round should not be wasted! Yes! And I think that's how the game handles it.
Yosharian ArchAngel VentilatorOfDoom Guys help me out there :/

I given up on Regongar and Magus in general. Crap class or crap implementation. I replaced him with Nok Nok and now I got a useful party members.

But my experience with Regongar was that if he does not need to move, he casts a touch attack spell and then attacks once with it in his weapon and then attacks once more. If he need to move then he just casts the spell and attacks once.
I didn't follow what he did when Hasted or after he got to lvl 8 and got a 2nd attack. Actually most of the time I didn't even bother casting anything with him because it is all such a bore.
As I said, you replace him with Nok Nok and gameplay is instantly better.

 

[ArchAngel]

arcane trickster can perform multiple simultaneous sneak attacks.
and also ignore many DR.

You mean in an AoE with the lvl 10 skill?

Surprise spell is the capstone and yes, with it *every* damage spell is Sneaked. But it comes too late.

So how do you get multiple sneak attacks per round on one target, like Serus suggests?

Level 2 scorching ray and later helfire ray. No save.

Isn't this a bug, if it triggers multiple sneak attacks? Google says this is incorrect per PnP (Cael) , but it might make AT attractive.

Will try it when Octavia levels up.

It is not by PnP rules but this is how it has been working since release. I doubt anyone even reported that as bug. If they are going to change it, we will find out when 1.1 hits.

 

[Zero Credibility]

This doesn't seem very logical at all. The description clearly says: Instead of spell touch attack you get a free melee attack. Free! Melee! You're delivering this spell via melee attack! Therefore other, subsequent melee attacks in this round should not be wasted! Yes! And I think that's how the game handles it.
Yosharian ArchAngel VentilatorOfDoom Guys help me out there :/

Uhm, yes, free the same way a touch attack in casting a touch spell is free, otherwise it would take two rounds to fully cast any touch spell - first round to cast, second to attack. Now, if you are also using spellcombat, then it really can mean free along with your normal attacks. Cast a touch spell, one spellstrike attack comes free with touch spell, plus all your normal attacks, all at -2 penalty. The thing to keep in mind is that in 3.x and Pathfinder you are either casting or attacking, and ways to do both in one round are very, very limited. That's precisely the main draw of magus - spellcombat, the ability to break the action economy of the game by doing both at the same time / in the same round. If any schmuck with a sword and a spell could do the same, would be the point of magus?

Now, how that looks in a game is a different business. From what I've seen, clunky. Magus would really need a turn based game to shine, where you can afford to micromanage every one of his actions to make the most of spellcombat.

 

[Lawntoilet]

This doesn't seem very logical at all. The description clearly says: Instead of spell touch attack you get a free melee attack. Free! Melee! You're delivering this spell via melee attack! Therefore other, subsequent melee attacks in this round should not be wasted! Yes! And I think that's how the game handles it.
Yosharian ArchAngel VentilatorOfDoom Guys help me out there :/

The way it seems to be working for me is, if you normally have 2 attacks:
-cast touch spell as Swift action (Spell Combat)
-attack at -2, miss *this is your free Spellstrike attack
-attack at -2, miss
-attack at -7, miss
Next round you still have the spell held, so if you don't cast another spell, you get
-attack at full AB (penalty only applies on the round you cast the spell)
-no free attack (that only happens on the round you cast the spell, not when you only have a spell held)
-attack, -5

It also doesn't seem like Spell Combat working with 2h weapons to me. If I do that, I get:
-Cast touch spell as Full Action (no Spell Combat)
-attack at -2 (Spell Strike)
-no more attacks
And if that attack misses, then the second round would proceed the same way.
So it looks to me like Spell Strike is working with 2h weapons but Spell Combat is not, which I believe is intended.

I given up on Regongar and Magus in general. Crap class or crap implementation. I replaced him with Nok Nok and now I got a useful party members.

But my experience with Regongar was that if he does not need to move, he casts a touch attack spell and then attacks once with it in his weapon and then attacks once more. If he need to move then he just casts the spell and attacks once.
I didn't follow what he did when Hasted or after he got to lvl 8 and got a 2nd attack. Actually most of the time I didn't even bother casting anything with him because it is all such a bore.
As I said, you replace him with Nok Nok and gameplay is instantly better.

My Magus baron isn't putting out Nok-Nok levels of damage, but he's pretty good and a good off-tank when buffs are up. Magus definitely requires a lot of micro, though.

 

[VentilatorOfDoom]

I given up on Regongar and Magus in general. Crap class or crap implementation. I replaced him with Nok Nok and now I got a useful party members.

Magus makes EK obsolete men. lul

Yes, melee magus is crap, tried it with Regongar, sucks. (at least the eldritch scion, didnt try the other one) Sry. Even worse - you constantly expose yourself to AoO due to spellcasting in melee. For what? To get that 5d6 touch spell in? Just make an actual mellee guy, use a twohanded weapon, then you'll see how actual damage looks like.
Or a rogue like nokkie. However, ranged magus is OK. It's just that ranged magus would be way stronger when you just take 2 magus levels (to get the touch spell + sneak dice and to get the addition attack at full bab) and then take a class with lots of sneak dice - if you do that you'll do more dmg than Nok-Nok - at range. Vivi - look at the grand mutagen, the spellcasting incl. imp invis to sneak attack everybody even if they aren't flanked etc.

 

[Shadenuat]

melee magus is crap, tried it with Regongar, sucks

try harder.

Magus is really strong, melee too. Requires a lot of micromanagement but strong

 

[ArchAngel]

melee magus is crap, tried it with Regongar, sucks

try harder.

Magus is really strong, melee too. Requires a lot of micromanagement but strong

And that micro is what makes him weak. Autocasting is useless, and he keeps losing the target even with target being alive. You have to micromanage him every round and his damage output is still somewhere around Amiri levels. Only advantage is that he can double as party buffer.
Also the way the game works makes him even weaker.
Everyone can move on round 1 while waiting for their initiative, that means your warriors are in melee contact asap and can do full round attacks. Your melee Magus is casting his touch spell, moving to melee and then doing one attack.

 

[Gregz]

Any legit STR builds? I feel like everything I see is DEX.

I'd like to do a melee fighting inquisitor but it seems like it just spreads out the skills and attributes too much.

Melee DEX Builds are way overrated. For STR melee Inquisitor I would go sacred huntsmaster with a Fauchard. 20 14 12 10 14 7 spread as Human. Spend feats on martial weapon, exotic weapon fauchard, heavy armor prof. Outflank with your pet and use bane/divine favour for tough oponents.

How do you spec your pet with outflank? It only works if 2 or more front-liners have it.

 

[ArchAngel]

Any legit STR builds? I feel like everything I see is DEX.

I'd like to do a melee fighting inquisitor but it seems like it just spreads out the skills and attributes too much.

Melee DEX Builds are way overrated. For STR melee Inquisitor I would go sacred huntsmaster with a Fauchard. 20 14 12 10 14 7 spread as Human. Spend feats on martial weapon, exotic weapon fauchard, heavy armor prof. Outflank with your pet and use bane/divine favour for tough oponents.

How do you spec your pet with outflank? It only works if 2 or more front-liners have it.

That is the ability of sacred huntmaster that pet gets all of your teamwork feats.

 

[Gregz]

arcane trickster can perform multiple simultaneous sneak attacks.
and also ignore many DR.

You mean in an AoE with the lvl 10 skill?

Surprise spell is the capstone and yes, with it *every* damage spell is Sneaked. But it comes too late.

So how do you get multiple sneak attacks per round on one target, like Serus suggests?

Level 2 scorching ray and later helfire ray. No save.

Yep, like this: https://steamcommunity.com/app/640820/discussions/0/3393916911747585718/

 

[Shadenuat]

And that micro is what makes him weak.

Price for ability to hit any enemy in the game regardless of dex, armor, and also tank with mage spells while wearing foking full plate with no penalties to spellcasting

roofles