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Pathfinder Pathfinder: Kingmaker - Enhanced Plus Edition - now with turn-based combat

Stoned Ape

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The belly of the whale
I'm very near the end and just want to finish, but holy fuck, House at the End of Time is the single worst dungeon in this game. Yes, it has a tons of high level enemies which means you have to buff constantly. But that's not why it's awful. It's awful because it's yet another fucking dungeon with alternate dimensions that you have to comb through over and over looking for what you need. I've spent an hour wandering around because I have no idea what I'm supposed to do. I have 2 keys, need the 3rd, and I just want this fucking game to be over.
That's exactly the way I felt when I completed it. I've still only managed to finish Kingmaker once despite clearing Pitax numerous times. I just couldn't muster up the will to go through THATEOT after hating it so much the first time I cleared it.
 

Bigg Boss

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I loved this game but it dragged on about 30 hours too long. Now people tell me the sequel is the shits and I am worried.
 

Desiderius

Found your egg, Robinett, you sneaky bastard
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Insert Title Here Pathfinder: Wrath
I loved this game but it dragged on about 30 hours too long. Now people tell me the sequel is the shits and I am worried.
The closest thing to the drudgery of the House is in an optional companion quest, but there's some of the same uneven quality/unrealized potential/need for an editor.
 

Bigg Boss

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But I am sure you can fuck a foxperson or something. True priorities. Nah sounds like fun.
 

Haplo

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Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire
I'm very near the end and just want to finish, but holy fuck, House at the End of Time is the single worst dungeon in this game. Yes, it has a tons of high level enemies which means you have to buff constantly. But that's not why it's awful. It's awful because it's yet another fucking dungeon with alternate dimensions that you have to comb through over and over looking for what you need. I've spent an hour wandering around because I have no idea what I'm supposed to do. I have 2 keys, need the 3rd, and I just want this fucking game to be over.
For consolation I'll mention that HatEoT doesn't need to be the end game :P

Theres a whole optional Act afterwards :P

...pretty short though. And rather fun, if combat heavy. Quite different from the House.
 
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Bigg Boss

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Worst thing about the first game was most of the companions were lame.
 

Desiderius

Found your egg, Robinett, you sneaky bastard
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Insert Title Here Pathfinder: Wrath
They all started out lame, which was kind of the point. You whip them all into shape. In Wrath they took that part out because they're all absolutely fabulous just the way they are - or with the hatewritten characters irredeemable. Only character you have a real impact on is Aru (and maybe Wolj) but that's pretty scripted and saccharine.
 

Stoned Ape

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They all started out lame, which was kind of the point. You whip them all into shape. In Wrath they took that part out because they're all absolutely fabulous just the way they are - or with the hatewritten characters irredeemable. Only character you have a real impact on is Aru (and maybe Wolj) but that's pretty scripted and saccharine.
It's also possible to redeem Wendaug and (apparently) corrupt Soseil and cause Aru fall back into being a demon.
 

Desiderius

Found your egg, Robinett, you sneaky bastard
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Insert Title Here Pathfinder: Wrath
Sos is already corrupt. You can sort of help him reconnect with his brother along the lines of Lann’s quest which is a good thing. What Eder’s quest in Deadfire should have at least had as a possibility.

Unless I missed something the Wend quest is just about who her Dom is - you or Savemalek (sp?). That’s no redemption (Tristian’s quest in P:K is). Daeran, Reg, and Lann’s quests are all compelling stories, but in general the MC has less of a role to play in Wrath quests than in P:K, and that goes for more than just companion quests.
 

Stoned Ape

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Sos is already corrupt. You can sort of help him reconnect with his brother along the lines of Lann’s quest which is a good thing. What Eder’s quest in Deadfire should have at least had as a possibility.

Unless I missed something the Wend quest is just about who her Dom is - you or Savemalek (sp?). That’s no redemption (Tristian’s quest in P:K is). Daeran, Reg, and Lann’s quests are all compelling stories, but in general the MC has less of a role to play in Wrath quests than in P:K, and that goes for more than just companion quests.
Nope, if you support Wend she goes past that and eventually starts to believe in kindness and honour, ending up as the wise chieftain of the mongrels. You have to romance her to change her personality, though.

Apparently Soseil gets emotionally hardened if you choose the confrontational options during his quest and ends up with a different outlook and personality.
 
Joined
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Worst thing about the first game was most of the companions were lame.
What do you mean by lame? Personally I liked the companions a lot better in the second game, their banters and jokes were funnier and their quests had more interesting developments and conflicts. Your mileage may vary though, they're a bit less down to earth than the first game and their problems are more fantastical. But personally I found them more personable and relateable, and less archetypal. If by lame you mean "uncool," I don't think you'll find the second games companions better. They're all pretty mushy zoomer biowarey type companions (although executed much better than Bioware companions are.)
 

Bigg Boss

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Worst thing about the first game was most of the companions were lame.
What do you mean by lame? Personally I liked the companions a lot better in the second game, their banters and jokes were funnier and their quests had more interesting developments and conflicts. Your mileage may vary though, they're a bit less down to earth than the first game and their problems are more fantastical. But personally I found them more personable and relateable, and less archetypal. If by lame you mean "uncool," I don't think you'll find the second games companions better. They're all pretty mushy zoomer biowarey type companions (although executed much better than Bioware companions are.)

I mean there was not a single normal male among the lot. The halfling girl was charming but annoying. Oh I did like the archer but he did not get much story really. Valeria ended up being my tough guy. The Orc was too much a queer to invest in but I did use him. The one guy I kinda liked (design wise) betrayed me. I like the vampire chick but she would not put out I think she was a lesbian. Sorry the names did not really stick I know Ekun and Jaheira and...I liked the mage chick but she was with some orc that wanted to treat her like property so I might need to replay to see if I can get him killed and tap it. Don't judge too harshly men - on replay's romancing companions is one of the few things left to do.
 

Correct_Carlo

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Finally, it's fucking done. Finished the game on Unfair having zero familiarity with Pathfinder before starting. All the men in this thread who talked shit, said I couldn't do it, and acted like this game is some kind of arcane rocket science that only a select few can understand can suck my ass, balls, and vagina:

unfair.jpg

Now that it's done, some random semi-coherent thoughts:

  • Its reputation for being "hard" is slightly overrated. This game's RNG certainly is brutal early game on unfair, and it has a very steep inverse difficulty curve, but I think that's different than being "hard." A hard game is one that forces you to be clever and strategize to meet challenges, but when PF:KM is at its hardest (especially in the prologue and portions of chapter 1) you have very few options to overcome challenges, so it's mostly a RNG-fest that tests your patience, rather than your intelligence. The prologue is probably the hardest part of the game, but a monkey with a "reload" button could beat it, so is it really hard? Or is it just fucking annoying?
  • In contrast, late chapter 1 all the way through chapter 3 are genuinely hard, and probably also when the game is at its best. Your characters are starting to develop just enough and have enough tools that you can start to strategize to survive, rather than just reloading repeatedly. Playing through chapters 1-3 on Unfair is probably one of my most memorable gaming experiences ever. It's very rare that an RPG forces me to think about builds and try different things to succeed.
  • I really loved the Varnhold DLC largely for this reason, as the whole thing takes place at that level 5-10 sweet spot when your characters have options for overcoming difficulties, but aren't the OP steamrollers they become by level 15.
  • However, while it's great to become those level 15 OP steamrollers eventually, I was mostly sapped from the joy of feeling truly powerful simply because of the endless amounts of annoyances in game/engine design at every turn. Probably 30% of my 350 hour playtime was spent watching loading screens. 10% was spent replaying entire questlines because I realized I missed something or one of my characters got polymorphed and I wasn't strong enough at that point to change it. Likewise, another 20% was spent endlessly buffing pre-battles (not exaggerating when I say that I probably spent 50 hours buffing in this game). There are massive, jaw-droppingly, stupid design decisions at every turn in this game, which slowly made it more and more of a chore to play as it progressed.
  • The dungeon design was also a mixed bag, oscillating between brilliant and jaw-droppingly awful at break neck speed. That House at the End of Time chapter 6 dungeon is one of the worst I've ever played in an RPG. If I didn't eventually just resort to a walkthrough, I'm certain that I would have given up out of frustration, as what you need to do to find the final key (with zero clues) is fucking idiotic. The main dungeon in the Varnhold DLC also had a similar intricate, dungeon-wide, puzzle design, but rather than being annoying that one was brilliant (probably my favorite in the whole game). Most other dungeons are pretty forgettable, as is the overworld map, which is mostly just a series of tiny maps with one or two enemies and/or a boss, so it ends up being more unneeded filler.
  • While I loved the Kingdom Management while I was playing it, it's hard not to see it as pointless filler after finishing the game. I spent probably 50-60 hours of my play-time strategizing and save-scumming for the best outcomes, only to find out that it ends up meaning jack shit. Unless you completely fuck it up (which is hard to do), all it really affects is whether or not you get artisan items, some of which are great, but absolutely none of which are (1) necessary or (2) in any way worth the massive effort it takes to get them. I spent 325 hours meticulously building my kingdom, only to suddenly be hit by a endgame event which just destroys your entire kingdom if you don't progress to the point of no return final quest event, regardless of how well you've built it. They really should have allowed your planning to have a bigger impact on the endgame event.
  • Character building was mostly great and a bright spot in the game, although progression can be difficult to plan for given that so much of the experience needed to progress (especially at the end of the game) is hidden in skill checks. It's a bit weird to me that I finished all of the Depths DLC without leveling up much at all, but if I enabled "Only skill user gets experience" my MC could level up twice in a single quest late-game simply from getting massive experience from Persuasion checks (a major problem given that I'm not sure it's possible to get to level 20 at all if you consistently use 5 party members, but don't do this).
  • However, despite the variety in builds, I will say that all the sperging over multi-class builds in this thread and elsewhere is kind of silly. In the end, my strongest companions ended up being the "pure" ones, and you can easily complete unfair without mutant-patchwork builds. My Nok-Nok, Ekun, Jubolist, Octavia, Regi, Harrim, & Tristian were all pure and awesome. My Valerie, Merc Monks, and Sword Saint Mercs were completely impure (and still awesome), but I suspect they would have been fine as pure too (playing Valerie as a pure Tower-Shield fighter would work perfectly fine). Only character I was disappointed in was Amiri, but I completely fucked her up by making her an inquisitor early game when I had no idea what I was doing, so I just didn't use her.
  • In terms of plot, characters, and writing, the actual plotting and characters were fine, but they were usually undone by terrible writing, and way too much of it on top of this. The writers usually take about 500 words to say things that should be said in 50, which doesn't help the game feeling overly long and bloated. There were some fun developments, especially with Tristian's and Jaethal's quests, but I usually found that I was only paying partial attention to what was going on, because it was usually pretty dull.
  • Generally, the game is 2 chapters too long, and this is by far its biggest flaw. I thought it was going to end around Chapter 4, which would have been a natural time to do so, so I was shocked to discover there were still 3 left. 4 Chapters plus a 5th concluding chapter would have been the perfect length.

Despite what a mixed bag the game was overall:

  • I was probably more obsessed with this game than any RPG I can remember in a very long time, and I also ended up falling in love with Pathfinder as a game system, even if the game itself is janky as fuck. I still prefer The Dark Eye overall (largely because I like its low-magic universe), but Pathfinder has such massive variety that it's incredibly fun to build characters.
  • I'm totally, 100%, psyched to play WOTR. Not only do I know all the PF mechanics now, but Kingmaker had such unfulfilled potential that I hope WOTR can pay some of it off. However, I definitely need to take 6 months off before I start WOTR, given that I've played nothing but Kingmaker for the past 4 months. If I go directly into it I'm going to go insane.

Anyhow, if you don't what to read that massive text dump, this is a pretty succinct TLDR of my thoughts on PF:KM:

Grandprize: One Month playing Pathfinder: Kingmaker
Second Prize: 2 Months playing Pathfinder: Kingmaker
Third Prize: 3 Months playing Pathfinder: Kingmaker
Punishment Prize for the Losers: 4 Months Playing Pathfinder: Kingmaker

And that's it. Now I'm going to shut my brain off and go play fucking Spiderman
 
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Desiderius

Found your egg, Robinett, you sneaky bastard
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Insert Title Here Pathfinder: Wrath
All the men in this thread who talked shit, said I couldn't do it
:nocountryforshitposters:

Of course it can be. Pink Eye even did it Ironman, it's just not designed to be (played on Unfair blind).

It's a throwback to games that were designed before there even was an internet, where you progressively fucked up and restarted multiple times learning something (a lot of things actually) from each fuck-up until you developed a level of mastery, which is the fun. Then you kick up the difficulty as you get too good at whatever difficulty you started on.

Your little prize thing was the attitude you started with because that's the way the shitty disposable games you grew up on were designed to be played. And they were designed to flatter the ego of the player by being faceroll unless you played the highest difficulty and sometimes even then. That's isn't these games. They're designed for replayability, but you missed the entire point because you your dumbass attitude.
 

Correct_Carlo

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All the men in this thread who talked shit, said I couldn't do it
:nocountryforshitposters:

Of course it can be. Pink Eye even did it Ironman, it's just not designed to be (played on Unfair blind).

It's a throwback to games that were designed before there even was an internet, where you progressively fucked up and restarted multiple times learning something (a lot of things actually) from each fuck-up until you developed a level of mastery, which is the fun. Then you kick up the difficulty as you get too good at whatever difficulty you started on.

Your little prize thing was the attitude you started with because that's the way the shitty disposable games you grew up on were designed to be played. And they were designed to flatter the ego of the player by being faceroll unless you played the highest difficulty and sometimes even then. That's isn't these games. They're designed for replayability, but you missed the entire point because you your dumbass attitude.
What the fuck are you even talking about? You don't know me. And you're the only one in this thread with attitude.
 

EdgyRightWinger

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Likewise, another 20% was spent endlessly buffing pre-battles (not exaggerating when I say that I probably spent 50 hours buffing in this game

Serious question, what's your preferred solution? Autobuff built into the game? Prevent pre-combat buffing? Completely redesign PF so you can't buff much (this was done in DND 5E)?

Also, are your pronouns in bio ironic or serious?
 

Correct_Carlo

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Likewise, another 20% was spent endlessly buffing pre-battles (not exaggerating when I say that I probably spent 50 hours buffing in this game

Serious question, what's your preferred solution? Autobuff built into the game? Prevent pre-combat buffing? Completely redesign PF so you can't buff much (this was done in DND 5E)?

Also, are your pronouns in bio ironic or serious?
My solution would be either:

-Buff profiles that you can program and implement at the push of a button.
or
-A button you can push that implements all the previous buffs you implemented, until you change members of your party.

Neither of these solutions would be perfect, as certain buffs are very situational (i.e. protection from energy, poison, or etc.). However, there are core buffs you end up casting in every single fight. It'd save a huge amount of time if you could program them all into a single button push when possible.
 
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Desiderius

Found your egg, Robinett, you sneaky bastard
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Insert Title Here Pathfinder: Wrath
Wrath has BubbleBuff for this that's pretty close.

Correct_Carlo is correct. The repetitive buffing is a big problem.
 

Yosharian

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Hammerfell
Likewise, another 20% was spent endlessly buffing pre-battles (not exaggerating when I say that I probably spent 50 hours buffing in this game

Serious question, what's your preferred solution? Autobuff built into the game? Prevent pre-combat buffing? Completely redesign PF so you can't buff much (this was done in DND 5E)?

Also, are your pronouns in bio ironic or serious?
The Kingmaker auto buff mod is nearly flawless and should basically be part of the vanilla game
 

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