Pathfinder Pathfinder: Kingmaker - Enhanced Plus Edition - now with turn-based combat

[Desiderius]

Been playing act1 with CoTW (not using favored class and traits, think this adds a bit too much power) a lot and my opinion on the mod is changing a lot. Originally I felt it was mostly bloat and also that it gave too many good tools to the player for kingmaker's more basic encounter design compared to WotR (which is why I decided to play with no mercs and no companion respec to avoid making an optimized synergetic team) and this stays true in some ways but:

Implementation looks flawless so far (in everything I've tested), balance/revert to pnp changes are good (especially the combat trick change that's also in TTT), a lot of new feats make feat heavy classes like fighter for martials and wizards for casters a lot more interesting and versatile.
Funnily enough I think the Grease change might be even stronger in this that in regular kingmaker. Enemies are taking 1 mobility check per square moved in the grease... kiting with enlarged reachers over grease is pretty fucking strong in the early game and don't need conjuration foci to make it very effective. I'd say balance changes look neutral to me. I am sure some late game stuff will be very strong, but late game always was very easy anyways.

Companion changes are hit or miss. It's a kind of drastic departure from Owlcat's original design which was to make a lot of them somewhat flexible by giving them a lot of stats so you could take them elsewhere if you wanted to. In CoTW they have a pretty optimized stat spread and feat choice for what the mod wants you to do with them.

All in all great mod, but choice paralysis is worse than in WoTR.

Mercs suck, as does Grease kiting (with a very few exceptions). You haven't hit one of the many optima yet.

Agree on the companion stat spreads and the mod.

 

[Desiderius]

yup but battle host gets it quite late was it lvl 12 or something

regarding implements only transmutation seemed "mandatory" its ridiculous how much it gives

There are a few nice combos, but Inquisitor itself starts to get dominant around the same time.

I found CotW to be a better fit with Depths standalone.

 

[volklore]

yup but battle host gets it quite late was it lvl 12 or something

regarding implements only transmutation seemed "mandatory" its ridiculous how much it gives

I'm not so much talking about implement powers but more about spells. There's a few personal range spells that are great for a martial occultist that are spread throughout the schools. Transmutation has lead blade obv, conjuration has blade tutor (pretty rare spell that removes 1 + 1/5CL AB penalty when using feats like PA or combat expertise, illusion mirror image etc...
Of course for me the main downside to battle host if playing with the trappings occultist from game start is not enjoying the benefits of full BAB the whole game.

 

[Desiderius]

Was Blade Tutor in Alch/Investigator spellbook? Feels like I remember being able to share it but could be misremembering.

 

[volklore]

Was Blade Tutor in Alch/Investigator spellbook? Feels like I remember being able to share it but could be misremembering.

Not on the alch list no sadly. It's on the summoner and wiz list though (also magus and paladin/antipaladin), so it can probably be shared with spell share/improved spell share/bonded mind but I haven't really looked into it much as it seemed quite feat intens. Also not sure if CoTW adds share spell feature to familiar.

 

[Daidre]

Also not sure if CoTW adds share spell feature to familiar.

It definitely added spell share/improved spell share to all pets + pet owners and I even vague remember CoTW having completely broken (I mean strong) teamwork feat that gave personal-spell sharing across the group. Could be wrong about second part though, it was many mod-versions ago.

 

[volklore]

Also not sure if CoTW adds share spell feature to familiar.

It definitely added spell share/improved spell share to all pets + pet owners and I even vague remember CoTW having completely broken (I mean strong) teamwork feat that gave personal-spell sharing across the group. Could be wrong about second part though, it was many mod-versions ago.

I am looking through feats now. Basically there is a share spell (companion ) feature (allows you to cast a personal spell on a pet) which qualifies for the share spell feat which allows casting of personal spells on characters if they are mind-bound to you via the bonded mind teamwork feat. That's a pretty steep feat requirement: 2 feats for the caster and 1 for each of those you want to cast personal spells on. Probably worth it because some list have tons of good personal range spells especially at later levels but early game that's a lot of feats. In regards to the occultist that seems a bit too much since the class is already feat starved. Might be good enough for battle host since it gets some bonus feat - still doesn't solve the fact that it gets trappings very late.

 

[Desiderius]

Also not sure if CoTW adds share spell feature to familiar.

It definitely added spell share/improved spell share to all pets + pet owners and I even vague remember CoTW having completely broken (I mean strong) teamwork feat that gave personal-spell sharing across the group. Could be wrong about second part though, it was many mod-versions ago.

I am looking through feats now. Basically there is a share spell (companion ) feature (allows you to cast a personal spell on a pet) which qualifies for the share spell feat which allows casting of personal spells on characters if they are mind-bound to you via the bonded mind teamwork feat. That's a pretty steep feat requirement: 2 feats for the caster and 1 for each of those you want to cast personal spells on. Probably worth it because some list have tons of good personal range spells especially at later levels but early game that's a lot of feats. In regards to the occultist that seems a bit too much since the class is already feat starved. Might be good enough for battle host since it gets some bonus feat - still doesn't solve the fact that it gets trappings very late.

Not that steep in the greater scheme of things, especially if you don't undervalue Teamwork feats as people get in the habit of doing due to the limited selection in the base game (see "no-brainer" Gendarme for example) when choosing classes/archetypes to play. CotW has a much wider complement. Tactician can be used to share them (but maybe doesn't work with Bonded?) and you've got Solo/Hunter's Tactics in there too.

By the time you've got sufficient duration on the buffs you'd want to share it could be worth doing. I remember having it about half the time.

 

[volklore]

Also not sure if CoTW adds share spell feature to familiar.

It definitely added spell share/improved spell share to all pets + pet owners and I even vague remember CoTW having completely broken (I mean strong) teamwork feat that gave personal-spell sharing across the group. Could be wrong about second part though, it was many mod-versions ago.

I am looking through feats now. Basically there is a share spell (companion ) feature (allows you to cast a personal spell on a pet) which qualifies for the share spell feat which allows casting of personal spells on characters if they are mind-bound to you via the bonded mind teamwork feat. That's a pretty steep feat requirement: 2 feats for the caster and 1 for each of those you want to cast personal spells on. Probably worth it because some list have tons of good personal range spells especially at later levels but early game that's a lot of feats. In regards to the occultist that seems a bit too much since the class is already feat starved. Might be good enough for battle host since it gets some bonus feat - still doesn't solve the fact that it gets trappings very late.

Tactician can be used to share them (but maybe doesn't work with Bonded?)

I thought of it but as per pnp rules (dunno if it's implemented this way in CoTW... it tends to be quite accurate) it should only work if bonded mind is a permanent feat.

 

[Desiderius]

Yeah, I think that's how CotW implements it.

You can use Tactician for other commonly used TW feats like Shake it Off, which leaves more picks for things like Bonded Mind. CotW also has the ranged TW stuff, which takes some careful planning to get there.

 

[Daidre]

You can use Tactician for other commonly used TW feats like Shake it Off, which leaves more picks for things like Bonded Mind.

Inquisitor also treats allies as having all the same Teamwork feats that he has. IIRC my Jaethal was giving out Divine Power left and right with some combo with Tactician.

 

[TedNugent]

I bought this game for a small price in a fancy sale, and then remembered why I loathe D&D based CRPG systems.

https://pathfinderkingmaker.fandom.com/wiki/Bonuses/Armor_Class

What is the reasoning behind this AC system or armor dex limits when such things as the above exist? I feel like D&D's original AC formulation and armor dex caps wasn't formulated with the kind of bullshit itemization in these CRPGs.

I gathered that the thing to do is drop armor completely and dip one class point into monk for wisdom or CHA modifier bonus, then wear +8 armor clothes if you want high late game AC?

Why deal with the malus to arcane cast or armor check penalty when such things exist?

Does anyone know of an actual CRPG fantasy combat roleplaying system that makes sense from a roleplaying standpoint? I don't think I can stomach D&D version 5, although I find 3.5 tolerable, if not palatable. I'm not sure if I can tolerate playing a cloth armor character. Similarly I don't know whether to laugh when reviewing the amount of medium armors in BG3 wiki that have no dex limit, combined with the fact that dex doubles as strength with finesse weapons, or that multiclassing or double dipping exists.

 

[Desiderius]

I gathered that the thing to do is drop armor completely and dip one class point into monk for wisdom or CHA modifier bonus, then wear +8 armor clothes if you want high late game AC?

It isn't.

Play the fucking game.

 

[Max Damage]

The problem with heavy armor in Kingmaker is they forgot to put in any meaningful mid-lategame items for that category, and cranking up AC in 3.5e/PF is so easy that platemails actually end up being a hindrance. Pillars of Eternity games actually use armor intuitively, it doesn't affect your chance to dodge an attack, and heavy armor noticeably boosts your defenses against hits that do connect, at the cost of slower action recovery.

 

[Yosharian]

I bought this game for a small price in a fancy sale, and then remembered why I loathe D&D based CRPG systems.

https://pathfinderkingmaker.fandom.com/wiki/Bonuses/Armor_Class

What is the reasoning behind this AC system or armor dex limits when such things as the above exist? I feel like D&D's original AC formulation and armor dex caps wasn't formulated with the kind of bullshit itemization in these CRPGs.

I gathered that the thing to do is drop armor completely and dip one class point into monk for wisdom or CHA modifier bonus, then wear +8 armor clothes if you want high late game AC?

Why deal with the malus to arcane cast or armor check penalty when such things exist?

Does anyone know of an actual CRPG fantasy combat roleplaying system that makes sense from a roleplaying standpoint? I don't think I can stomach D&D version 5, although I find 3.5 tolerable, if not palatable. I'm not sure if I can tolerate playing a cloth armor character. Similarly I don't know whether to laugh when reviewing the amount of medium armors in BG3 wiki that have no dex limit, combined with the fact that dex doubles as strength with finesse weapons, or that multiclassing or double dipping exists.

The reasoning is someone at Owlcat fucking hates armour and the rest of the team is either too pussy to reign in the ridiculously OP unarmoured items/buff armour or too incompetent to realise the severity of the problem

They even added in mythic armour abilities/feats in Wrath and still didn't fix the problem because they are almost all garbage

 

[volklore]

Just use TTT for wrath and CotW for kingmaker and the glaring omissions for armor and shields are added.
Which makes heavy armor just fine. Although I still find them playable without the mods, just a bit more difficult but workable regardless, and not having to delay main class levels to dip into monk.

 

[Desiderius]

Item slots are good. Dips are bad (90% of progression is tied to class). Play the game as designed and you'll pwn the powergheymer idiots.

AC is mostly for retards who are trying to solo or haven't figured out basic tactics anyway.

 

[razvedchiki]

im contemplating respecing Valerie to pure fighter and giving her heavy shield+falcata, eventually getting lions claw. or a scimitar is better?

 

[Serus]

Item slots are good. Dips are bad (90% of progression is tied to class). Play the game as designed and you'll pwn the powergheymer idiots.

AC is mostly for retards who are trying to solo or haven't figured out basic tactics anyway.

If AC - one of the most basic mechanics in D&D(-likes) - "is mostly for retards" in this game, then what does it say about the quality of mechanics and/or balance of this game?

 

[TedNugent]

Item slots are good. Dips are bad (90% of progression is tied to class). Play the game as designed and you'll pwn the powergheymer idiots.

AC is mostly for retards who are trying to solo or haven't figured out basic tactics anyway.

I don't understand - you get the full monk dip bonus for one point. The solution is pretty obvious, make it scale based on points depth in the tree rather than making it a one class level dip that scales infinitely with wis.

Add that to multi stat boosting items, and you effectively get to double dip stat point modifiers.

Is that worth a level 20 spell/ability?

Why does a bracer give as much armor as plate mail? At least cap it to the +5 value of the BiS modifier, then you'd at least have to have +9 combined attribute bonus to equate to the AC value.

I have a similar problem with D&D 5e where damage and to hit with finesse weapons doesn't even require a feat.

 

[volklore]

Item slots are good. Dips are bad (90% of progression is tied to class). Play the game as designed and you'll pwn the powergheymer idiots.

AC is mostly for retards who are trying to solo or haven't figured out basic tactics anyway.

I don't understand - you get the full monk dip bonus for one point. The solution is pretty obvious, make it scale based on points depth in the tree rather than making it a one class level dip that scales infinitely with wis.

Add that to multi stat boosting items, and you effectively get to double dip stat point modifiers.

Is that worth a level 20 spell/ability?

Why does a bracer give as much armor as plate mail? At least cap it to the +5 value of the BiS modifier, then you'd at least have to have +9 combined attribute bonus to equate to the AC value.

I have a similar problem with D&D 5e where damage and to hit with finesse weapons doesn't even require a feat.

It's not about losing a lvl 20 ability it's about what you lose at lvl 2,3,4,5...etc. Most class abilities scale with levels in the class and AC is, well just AC. You fundamentally do not need more than one char with high AC unless you want to make some kind of right-click and watch comp.
The armor bracers that rival plate armor come late, by that time you can get mithral full plate and fighter's armor training gets their dex bonus to AC quite high, on top of being able to carry a tower or heavy shield with a +5 enhancement bonus. What makes unarmored good in KM is more the crazy good monk robes and the abundance of headpiece with mental stats but still, I would say for the most part it is overkill.
Dex to dmg isn't all that great. Unless you're a rogue you have to pay two feats just to function properly. And that comes with limitations, : being limited to 1 weapon type, not being allowed to use a shield or to two-hand your weapon for 1.5 modifier to damage (not applying to rogue again). So it isn't free that's a pretty steep opportunity cost. A strength build that wouldn't bother about AC would be two feats ahead and dishing out a ton more damage.

I think his reasoning is :why do you waste your MC on stacking AC when Valerie is set up to be your tank bitch from the start? If you'd want to sacrifice some scaling for early game AC that would be her - and she can ramp to late game level AC just fine.
There is also the fact that AC's value lowers as the game goes on : your caster get better spells so your ability to control the battlefield gets stronger and stronger, your crew gets higher dmg which means fewer things get to live/act many rounds, you have more HP and can start taking hits more regularly even on unfair etc, etc.

I am not as autistic as Desiderius, I think dipping can be fine in some circumstances but it is definitely that the more you play this game the less attractive dipping becomes. And a certain builder of owlcat PF games kinda managed to drill in the mind of half the people playing this game that a melee char NEEDS to reach nie untouchable AC or is basically shit. Which is utterly retarded.

 

[Average Manatee]

In general statlines are bloated in Kingmaker (and WotR). This means anything that lets you use more stats for anything is overpowered. Armor is absolutely fine for core and generally stays so up to Hard though.

The thing with the monk dip is that you lose almost nothing for a melee class since its still full BAB, you get a monk bonus feet which most melee builds can use, you get free improved unarmed strike if you want to take crane style, and you get flurry of blows with monk weapons. If you are going to use most or all of those then 1 level of scaled fist would be worth taking even without the AC bonus. Who gives a shit if you're 1 level behind on your +1 weapon training progression? Just getting 2 attacks per round at max BAB from level 1 is possibly the strongest early game progression a melee class can get. Buff your stats to like 24 STR/18 DEX/18 CHA with just the basic +4 buff spells and two hand a quarter staff for +10/+10 APR dealing 14-19 damage with power attack, you're fucking shit up hardcore around level 3. Sure quarterstaff drops off eventually due to low crit rate compared to other weapons but so does the game difficulty so who cares?

It only becomes a questionable dip if you're doing it as something like a sorcerer who is fucking their (already fucked compared to wizard) spell progression to gain some AC when they'll only be attacked in like 5 fights throughout the whole game where enemies surround you or run past your frontline.

 

[Vorark]

Is the Monk dip alignment restricted or any character can take it? Don't have the game installed right now to check.

 

[Jermu]

yup lawful, some degenerate builds just change alignment with dialogue choices after character creation to get some nonlawful stuff

cotw has pretty cool option that monk AC bonus is tied to monk level (max 1 ac each monk level or two don't remb anymore)

also based on my experiences AC is important early game when you have more limited resources to cast cc spells / summons and other things. otherwise what choice you have left, nuke everything before getting hit, reduce enemy chance to act/hit or kite (depending on classes and builds those are of course possible for most encounters)

 

[TedNugent]

Note, I said dex to str in D&D 5e, that doesn't require a feat, it's 1-1 on finesse weapons, it just picks the highest and gives you full modifier to hit and damage.

That isn't the case in 3.5 or Pathfinder, it has drawbacks and requires feats/class perks as you said.

In 3.5 you can't really even get damage mod bonus, just full hit modifier on dex, which is a huge drawback.

No armor is already better than armor intrinsically due to no armor penalty, no dex limit, and no spellcasting penalty. You also save on weight.

It's only a one character level drop for this.