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Pathfinder Pathfinder: Kingmaker - Enhanced Plus Edition - now with turn-based combat

Desiderius

Found your egg, Robinett, you sneaky bastard
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Insert Title Here Pathfinder: Wrath
I find it weird that people would complain about copy-pasted encounters in this area of all places where this is a game where old sycamore and womb of lamashtu exist, where you are litterally spammed with waves upon waves of the exact same enemy all accross the dungeon. In old Sycamore you have an entire dungeon floor (and more) of fucking centipedes and spiders that are all functionally the same (low hp poison on hit you can't grease, vs higher hp poison on hit you can grease).
Candlemere Tower also has the same issue, just buy scrolls and cast protection from lighting and it's solved, it's pitifully lazy design. Much simpler RPGs like Dungeon Rats never had that problem, you couldn't ace a fight simply with consumable they're still helpful and auxilliary and due to games economy more valuable. I really wouldnt mind if half of the map was cut to make dungeons better, the encounters and dungeons in this game feels bloated.
Don’t waste your money. What kind of party comp doesn’t have those spells already? See Invis, Communal is also a big help.

“Bloated” = having to reload too much because you aren’t prepared. There are more than Wisps on that map but if you can’t hit shit yeah it will feel like a slog.
 

Desiderius

Found your egg, Robinett, you sneaky bastard
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Insert Title Here Pathfinder: Wrath
It's absolutely obvious that the issue is not with tough encounters that force spellcasters to use their abilities, nor with gruelling dungeons that have lots of encounters, but rather boring copy paste encounters that artificially pad out the dungeon and offer no variety to the player.

In the Boggard cave you encounter these barbarian Boggards that are tough as hell and they hit hard, forcing you to think about how you're going to disable them. They're not a bad little encounter. (Well, actually you first encounter them outside the cave, but whatever) Then the rest of the cave is just the same encounter copy pasted about 20 times. This isn't interesting dungeon design. Owlcat uses this approach all the time. HATEOT is similar, but at least you have more advanced tools available to you, such as Weird, by that point.
To clarify tough encounters isn't the problem in fact I like them. But the attrition pproach justifies lazy dungeon designs that's the problem.
It's clearly an end of act1 area. There's no actual attrition since act1 has a very generous time limit... just a gauntlet of tough fights for you to blow all of your load on while trying to survive, and react to RNG shit like the big dudes passing their saves. When I ran through it at lvl 5, I had to CC some, tank some, lower their saves/AB with intimidate and archon's aura, heal my tank that when he was taking a hit, use difficult terrain to my advantage etc... I constantly had to chose between options as dice rolls were going my way or not, I think that's exactly what a turn-based d20 RPG encounter should be about. I agree that the loot is terrible although it does sell for a lot which is always great for buying items and BPs in early act2, the exp is also nice.

I really liked that area, and I don't think the encounters are even really that copy-pasted :
There's three*2 charging boggard encounters outisde where you can practice fighting those properly, understand their mechanics.
Then you have the cave entrance in which they are all clumped for aoe CC. In the cave, you start by fighting them in a wide area and totally split off from each other which are very nicely solved by difficult terrain/web, then there is the encounter with the two prophet fire mages in the backline which makes you have to do something to deal with them rather than hiding behind difficult terrain/web and deal with them as they come at you. The unnecesarry ones are the couple of patrols and the boss fight of the area isn't particularly great (same as the cave entrance they are clumped for grease/color spray). There's enough difference, variety of option and variance introduced by dice rolls to make them fun to play.

I find it weird that people would complain about copy-pasted encounters in this area of all places where this is a game where old sycamore and womb of lamashtu exist, where you are litterally spammed with waves upon waves of the exact same enemy all accross the dungeon. In old Sycamore you have an entire dungeon floor (and more) of fucking centipedes and spiders that are all functionally the same (low hp poison on hit you can't grease, vs higher hp poison on hit you can grease).
Boggard area was DLC (B-team) tack on. Shitty loot, no interaction/hidden items. Just skip. Difference with Old Sycamore is night and day.

Sycamore is about learning how to manage Poison and weaning yourself off of (1st level spell) Grease. It will kill you there more than it will kill mobs. Just learn to use your tank.
 

Üstad

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I find it weird that people would complain about copy-pasted encounters in this area of all places where this is a game where old sycamore and womb of lamashtu exist, where you are litterally spammed with waves upon waves of the exact same enemy all accross the dungeon. In old Sycamore you have an entire dungeon floor (and more) of fucking centipedes and spiders that are all functionally the same (low hp poison on hit you can't grease, vs higher hp poison on hit you can grease).
Candlemere Tower also has the same issue, just buy scrolls and cast protection from lighting and it's solved, it's pitifully lazy design. Much simpler RPGs like Dungeon Rats never had that problem, you couldn't ace a fight simply with consumable they're still helpful and auxilliary and due to games economy more valuable. I really wouldnt mind if half of the map was cut to make dungeons better, the encounters and dungeons in this game feels bloated.
Don’t waste your money. What kind of party comp doesn’t have those spells already? See Invis, Communal is also a big help.

“Bloated” = having to reload too much because you aren’t prepared. There are more than Wisps on that map but if you can’t hit shit yeah it will feel like a slog.
Burning a few bucks to clean a dungeon especially considering the game throws you shit tons of wands and scrolls you never use, it's not really a problem.

Sycamore is about learning how to manage Poison and weaning yourself off of (1st level spell) Grease. It will kill you there more than it will kill mobs. Just learn to use your tank.
Sycamore was tedious as fuck especially for turn based it takes too much time as the game was clearly designed for RTwP combat from the start, but still it had a purpose as you said. This can't be said for other areas though.
 

Desiderius

Found your egg, Robinett, you sneaky bastard
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Insert Title Here Pathfinder: Wrath
You don’t have “a few bucks” to burn on spells you should already have. Those bucks need to go toward building materials until you return rich from VTomb.

Owlcat TB >> Pillars/Deadfire TB

Especially if you have Swifts that are tricky to apply in RTwP in Owlcat games. More of those in Wrath granted.

Using Val effectively should make Sycamore go swiftly. She even has a very high Fort Save for those poisons if you somehow can’t manage a Delay Poison cast (1 hr/lvl for single target). It’s kind of a training area for basic tactics.

Can leave big roach in the middle for later if you prefer. Skelton tomb should be manageable unless you’re still relying on Grease, in which case those tight quarters will be a nightmare.
 
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I find it weird that people would complain about copy-pasted encounters in this area of all places where this is a game where old sycamore and womb of lamashtu exist, where you are litterally spammed with waves upon waves of the exact same enemy all accross the dungeon. In old Sycamore you have an entire dungeon floor (and more) of fucking centipedes and spiders that are all functionally the same (low hp poison on hit you can't grease, vs higher hp poison on hit you can grease).
Candlemere Tower also has the same issue, just buy scrolls and cast protection from lighting and it's solved, it's pitifully lazy design. Much simpler RPGs like Dungeon Rats never had that problem, you couldn't ace a fight simply with consumable they're still helpful and auxilliary and due to games economy more valuable. I really wouldnt mind if half of the map was cut to make dungeons better, the encounters and dungeons in this game feels bloated.
Don’t waste your money. What kind of party comp doesn’t have those spells already? See Invis, Communal is also a big help.

“Bloated” = having to reload too much because you aren’t prepared. There are more than Wisps on that map but if you can’t hit shit yeah it will feel like a slog.
Burning a few bucks to clean a dungeon especially considering the game throws you shit tons of wands and scrolls you never use, it's not really a problem.

Sycamore is about learning how to manage Poison and weaning yourself off of (1st level spell) Grease. It will kill you there more than it will kill mobs. Just learn to use your tank.
Sycamore was tedious as fuck especially for turn based it takes too much time as the game was clearly designed for RTwP combat from the start, but still it had a purpose as you said. This can't be said for other areas though.


Understatement of the millennium. Owlcat Games must be the only games in existence were simply cutting a good third of the "content" would make them move up a tier itself.


Such a shame that people are actually defending this. They could be the Next Big Thing faster than you're burnt out on their quantity over quality approach across the shop.
 
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It's absolutely obvious that the issue is not with tough encounters that force spellcasters to use their abilities, nor with gruelling dungeons that have lots of encounters, but rather boring copy paste encounters that artificially pad out the dungeon and offer no variety to the player.

In the Boggard cave you encounter these barbarian Boggards that are tough as hell and they hit hard, forcing you to think about how you're going to disable them. They're not a bad little encounter. (Well, actually you first encounter them outside the cave, but whatever) Then the rest of the cave is just the same encounter copy pasted about 20 times. This isn't interesting dungeon design. Owlcat uses this approach all the time. HATEOT is similar, but at least you have more advanced tools available to you, such as Weird, by that point.
It's 8 encounters, not 20. You guys must have get some serious PTSD whenever an area takes more than 5 mins. 20 encounters is closer to the entire 3 level sycamore area, and it has like 7 distinct types of enemies to fight
 

volklore

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Using Val effectively should make Sycamore go swiftly. She even has a very high Fort Save for those poisons if you somehow can’t manage a Delay Poison cast (1 hr/lvl for single target). It’s kind of a training area for basic tactics.
Nobody's saying sycamore is hard or anything. People are saying that once you fought a couple centipede encounter, you already fought them all. And they overstay their welcome.
I am not of the crowd that thinks repeating the same encounters multiple times is a crime or whatever, but I do think that sycamore has too many of these, especially the centipede ones. At least the spider area has traps that can really screw with you if you don't scout.
 

Desiderius

Found your egg, Robinett, you sneaky bastard
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Insert Title Here Pathfinder: Wrath
Using Val effectively should make Sycamore go swiftly. She even has a very high Fort Save for those poisons if you somehow can’t manage a Delay Poison cast (1 hr/lvl for single target). It’s kind of a training area for basic tactics.
Nobody's saying sycamore is hard or anything. People are saying that once you fought a couple centipede encounter, you already fought them all. And they overstay their welcome.
I am not of the crowd that thinks repeating the same encounters multiple times is a crime or whatever, but I do think that sycamore has too many of these, especially the centipede ones. At least the spider area has traps that can really screw with you if you don't scout.
I appreciated the practice to help me master the tactics involved in avoiding spit attacks to my backlines and gaining an appreciation for the “bad” TSS class and Val’s stat spread, which was my first (wrong) impression.

Came in handy when those spitting centipedes became Wild Hunt Scouts!
 

Infinitron

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Codex Year of the Donut Serpent in the Staglands Dead State Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Wasteland 2 Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Pathfinder: Kingmaker Pathfinder: Wrath I'm very into cock and ball torture I helped put crap in Monomyth
https://owlcat.games/news/90

How did Pathfinder: Kingmaker videogame influence the second edition of the official adventure?​

Introduction

The original Kingmaker adventure, released by Paizo Publishing in 2010, stood out vividly from its peers by combining open world exploration mechanics with an innovative system for building your own kingdom, thereby blending traditional tabletop role-playing elements with strategic management. A characteristic feature of Kingmaker (which made this adventure extremely difficult for the game master to prepare and manage) was giving players maximum freedom of action: they are free to go anywhere, initially pursuing the goals of exploring and conquering wild lands, and then developing and protecting their kingdom as they see fit.

Largely due to this unique combination, we at Owlcat Games, chose Kingmaker as the basis for our debut video game Pathfinder: Kingmaker, which was released 6 years ago on September 25, 2018. During the adaptation process, we made many decisions that changed and expanded the original narrative while implementing Pathfinder 1e rules as faithfully as possible. The release of the game attracted many new players to the Pathfinder universe, including those who were previously unfamiliar with tabletop role-playing games.

In 2019, one year after the release of our game, Pathfinder 2e was released. Together with the increased interest in Kingmaker, it triggered the launch of a crowdfunding campaign for a reissue of the original adventure path, adapted to the new Pathfinder edition and timed to coincide with the 10th anniversary of the original. The campaign saw phenomenal success (reaching 1,147% of the original goal) and in 2022 the Kingmaker anniversary edition was released, consisting of a richly illustrated book with the adventure itself, an updated bestiary for Pathfinder 2e, a bestiary adapted for D&D 5e as well as a separate companion guide and additional mechanics from the video game. The video game’s influence can be traced all throughout the anniversary edition — from the addition of new characters and the development of storylines, to new game mechanics and world-building details.

In this article, we’ll take a look at how Owlcat’s Pathfinder: Kingmaker influenced the anniversary edition of the adventure path, which changes and decisions from the computer game were added to the adventure path, and how they affected the tabletop experience.

Changes in the Adventure’s Structure — Spoiler Alert!

Kingmaker is characterized by small plot connections between each chapter, with many unexpected threats and antagonists that appear unrelated at first glance. The structure of the adventure resembles a TV series in which each episode is dedicated to solving a specific problem that develops only within the scope of the episode and does not extend to the rest of the series, and only in the last episode is the viewer given an explanation of how the events of the previous chapters are all connected. It is only by the last chapter that all the stories, which previously looked independent, begin to form a single cohesive picture. While working on Pathfinder: Kingmaker, we made efforts to connect every chapter of the original with an overarching plot by adding causal relationships that are obvious to the player between the events of different chapters, as well as introducing some key antagonists in the early stages of the game in order to then develop and deepen their relationship with the player. We are glad that in the anniversary edition of the adventure, Paizo decided to use some of our ideas to enhance the structure of the Kingmaker narrative.

The first significant change in structure is the transfer of the start of the adventure from the trading post to Lady Jamandi’s mansion. In the original, obtaining the charter for the development of the Stolen Lands took place “behind the scenes” and the adventure began immediately at a trading post awaiting an attack by bandits. In Pathfinder: Kingmaker and the anniversary edition, the adventure begins with a dinner party, to which Jamandi Aldori has invited many adventurers, in order to form groups to conquer the Stolen Lands. In this way, players are introduced to a lot of key characters, including those who they won’t interact with for several chapters. The surprise attack on the estate has also found its way into the new edition, during which players get to know the companions from Pathfinder: Kingmaker and receive hints about Pitax's role in upcoming events through a new character — Tartuccio.

The gnome Tartuccio is an extremely important character, added to Pathfinder: Kingmaker as a link between the threats that the heroes will face over several chapters. In the original, we dealt with the kobold shaman Tartuk in the first chapter, with a troll tribe in the second, and with the treacherous King Irovetti in the fifth. It was the shaman Tartuk who became the prototype for Tartuccio, King Irovetti’s spy, who appears to the player in the very beginning of the video game, organizing the attack on the estate and then leading a competing party to the Stolen Lands. He then poses as a kobold shaman, and after his death he reincarnates into a real kobold and gathers an army of trolls under his command. We were pleased to meet Tartuccio again in the anniversary edition, where he plays the same role as in the digital adaptation (minus the reincarnation).

The next major episode with changes transferred from the computer game is the Season of Bloom and the corresponding cult. In Pathfinder: Kingmaker, the source of the Bloom was a special plant growing simultaneously on two planes — the Material Plane and the First World. Its seeds, infecting people through drinking water, sooner or later “bloomed” into portals through which monsters crossed from the First World to the Material Plane, tearing the victim apart from the inside. The spread of seeds was facilitated by a tribe of goblins worshiping the goddess Lamashtu, and their source–the Everblooming Flower–was located in a cave through which it was possible to enter the First World, enabling the player to destroy the flower on both planes simultaneously.

In the anniversary edition, the Lamashtu cult, this time consisting of human followers and not directly related to goblins, is responsible for the Bloom. Its mechanics, however, remain unchanged, except that instead of a flower growing in two places at the same time, the seeds come from plants grown by cultists through unholy rituals involving the energies of the First World and the Abyss. Goblins worshiping Lamashtu are also present, but act as a red herring in the epidemic’s investigation. Just like in the video game, this episode features the Pitaxian bard Annamede Belavarah, who appears in the original only in the later chapters. Other characters introduced in the video game, such as the sisters Edina and Jolia Aldori, or Jamel Visser, who organizes a monster hunt at the beginning of the episode, are also present.

The most important change of all, however, is the motivation of the adventure’s main antagonist and the addition of a new one — the Lantern King.

As in Pathfinder: Kingmaker, the anniversary edition of the adventure reworked the story of the nymph queen Nyrissa, explaining her desire to destroy the player's kingdom. The updated story tells of a trial in which the Eldest, the rulers of the First World, punished Nyrissa for her criminal attempt to declare herself one of them. Her punishment, proposed by one of the Eldest — the Lantern King — was the removal of her ability to love. To get it back, she had to collect a grain of dust from one thousand destroyed kingdoms into a goblet, thereby earning the forgiveness of the Eldest. When the player establishes their kingdom, there are already 999 grains in the goblet, and the players’ kingdom is to be the last one. It is also worth noting that although a peaceful resolution to the confrontation with Nyrissa was impossible in the original, it is possible in the reissue.

The original adventure ends with Nyrissa’s defeat. However, with the addition of the curse storyline, both the computer game and the anniversary re-release acquire a new chapter and a corresponding antagonist — the Lantern King! After the heroes' victory over Nyrissa, the Eldest, realizing that the conditions of his forgiveness will not be fulfilled, decides to punish the heroes for their interference, casting a curse on them by breaking the goblet containing the destroyed kingdoms. A small difference between the implementation of this episode in Pathfinder: Kingmaker and the reissue is that in the computer game, the curse strikes the player’s kingdom on the Material Plane, while in the reissue, the Lantern King imprisons the heroes in a terrifying demiplane. Despite this difference, the events that follow are similar — players must fight the nightmarish incarnations of the previously-defeated Stag Lord, Vordakai, Irovetti and others, and then confront the Lantern King himself atop the ruins of their own capital!

Companions

We created a number of wonderful companions with deep personalities, individual stories, and quests for Pathfinder: Kingmaker. The Kingmaker Companion Guide was published alongside the anniversary edition of the Kingmaker adventure, containing a description of our companions, recommendations for their integration into the tabletop party, and redesigned versions of personal quests!

Unfortunately, only Amiri, Ekundayo, Jubilost, Linzi, Valerie, Tristian and Nok-Nok have received detailed development, getting statblocks for levels 1 and 11 as well as personal quests, while Harrim, Jaethal, Octavia, Regongar, Kalikke and Kanerah have been fleshed out much less.

In Pathfinder: Kingmaker, these characters act as party members and travel with the player, while in the tabletop game, all characters in the party are controlled by live players (who want to play their own characters, not pre-written ones!). Therefore, the reissue proposes that these characters be used as a parallel party under the game master’s control, with players able to build relationships with them, ask them for support, and even induct them into royal service. In fact, in the beginning of the story, some of them can even join Tartuccio just like in the video game!

Each companion also has unique abilities or spells that, should they be willing, they can teach to the player characters. They can equally take part in unique kingdom management activities and participate in the new camp mechanic.

Systems

The camp system is one of the most important elements in establishing the atmosphere in Pathfinder: Kingmaker. When camping, the player assigns tasks to their companions, and their successes or failures in these roles have a direct impact on the gameplay — a poorly disguised camp can attract bandits, an inattentive watchman can put the party at a disadvantage in a sudden night attack, and a well-cooked meal will give useful bonuses for the next day. Not to mention the fact that the camp is an opportunity for the relationships between the companions to be deepened and shown to the player through their banter.

In the original adventure (and the Pathfinder system as a whole), resting does not have complex formalized mechanics — it is generally limited to checking the guards’ perception if the camp is to be attacked, and there’s good reason for this: a long rest is a very frequent and rather routine event in big adventures, which, if overloaded with additional mechanics (acting out which takes considerable time) may cause boredom or irritation.

However, players liked the implementation of rest in the digital adaptation so much that a comprehensive optional camp system was added to the reissue! It includes a description of activities to find the perfect place to camp, as well as a variety of camp activities that the characters can do — from cooking to telling stories around the campfire! The unique companions from the video game can travel alongside the player and provide the camp with special advantages during a break (or merely share their wisdom). Along with cooking from Pathfinder: Kingmaker, recipes for dishes with various effects and individual companions’ favorite dishes that provide them with bonuses have also been transferred.

We also added a number of weather effects in Pathfinder: Kingmaker, such as rain of varying strength that affects concentration and ranged attacks, and a thunderstorm during which characters have a small chance to be struck by lightning. While exploring the Stolen Lands, weather conditions can be an important element, providing atmosphere and highlighting the difficulties faced by explorers in the wilderness.

Expanded weather rules have been added in the reissue of the adventure, including weather prediction as well as descriptions of various weather phenomena that adventurers will face.

The kingdom management system was also expanded in the reissue and underwent several changes. As in the video game, there are long-term actions that characters assigned to certain roles can take part in, the result of which is determined by checking the appropriate parameters of the kingdom.

Conclusion

The influence of Owlcat’s Pathfinder: Kingmaker on the anniversary edition of the tabletop adventure is extensive. The integration of characters, mechanics, and the enriched plot from the computer game into the tabletop version not only breathed new life into the adventure path, but also bridged the gap between both experiences. Combining the strengths of the original adventure path and of the digital adaptation, Paizo created an exciting and dynamic experience, both developing the narrative aspect and enriching the strategic component, while keeping the spirit of the tabletop role-playing game. Paizo’s anniversary reissue of the Kingmaker adventure path sets a new benchmark for future adaptations and industry collaborations. And in light of the upcoming release of War of the Immortals, which plans to introduce mythic mechanics to Pathfinder 2e, I am extremely curious to see and enjoy the re-release of the Wrath of the Righteous adventure path.
 

Nas92

Augur
Joined
Oct 20, 2014
Messages
599
Jesus Christ, the game doesn't pull punches in the last act. 4 problem events every day? Goddammit I also dicked around too much, I didn't get all of my stats to the max, nor could I do all the region upgrades and I only got one masterpiece item. But I guess it's now a huge rush to the endgame. My kingdom was at serene, and my stats were high, not to mention I turned kingdom management down to easy so maybe I won't get completely merked. That said, I only achieved Level 16 at this point in the game.
Fortunately I found the portal area quickly. Any tips for this part of the game?
 

Nas92

Augur
Joined
Oct 20, 2014
Messages
599
Tips for kingdom management specifically?
Partly, but also gameplay tips, what should I look out for in this last chapter? I really don't want to have to redo loads of content because of some gotcha bullshit.
 

Yosharian

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Grand Chien
Tips for kingdom management specifically?
Partly, but also gameplay tips, what should I look out for in this last chapter? I really don't want to have to redo loads of content because of some gotcha bullshit.
Bring 40+ DC Weird, that's my tip lmao

You're also gonna have a hard time if you don't have Mass Icy Prison IMO

Also, bring weapons capable of Ghost Touch
 

scytheavatar

Scholar
Joined
Sep 22, 2016
Messages
685
Jesus Christ, the game doesn't pull punches in the last act. 4 problem events every day? Goddammit I also dicked around too much, I didn't get all of my stats to the max, nor could I do all the region upgrades and I only got one masterpiece item. But I guess it's now a huge rush to the endgame. My kingdom was at serene, and my stats were high, not to mention I turned kingdom management down to easy so maybe I won't get completely merked. That said, I only achieved Level 16 at this point in the game.
Fortunately I found the portal area quickly. Any tips for this part of the game?

It's the worst fucking part of the game, possibly the worst part in CRPG history. Just look at a youtube guide and not waste your time trying to figure it out yourself. It's not worth it.

Also make sure to stock up on mass heal scrolls before entering the area cause they can be used to damage the annoying ghost enemies.
 

Desiderius

Found your egg, Robinett, you sneaky bastard
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Insert Title Here Pathfinder: Wrath
They target touch AC (TSS Val should have enough to tank them) but they don’t do all that much damage anyway unless you let them flank you. Disease immunity is good vs Ghost Mages. They’re not immune to Slow or Blindness.

The thing you need to look up is how to solve the puzzles.
 

ColonelMace

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Understatement of the millennium. Owlcat Games must be the only games in existence were simply cutting a good third of the "content" would make them move up a tier itself.


Such a shame that people are actually defending this. They could be the Next Big Thing faster than you're burnt out on their quantity over quality approach across the shop.

If Owlcat were western they'd been excommunicated long ago.
 

Nas92

Augur
Joined
Oct 20, 2014
Messages
599
Thanks for all the tips, let's hope I prepared enough and that I brought a good enough party to handle this area. Realistically, I think I have about a month before my kingdom gets merked, I'm still on Serene. I think I can afford to rest before entering the Castle of Knives. Without the DLCs and being cooped up kingdom managing I'm only Level 16, I'll probably level up in the last area, I hope Level 17 will be enough not to get massacred at the end. I was definitely shit at time and kingdom management.
 

Cat

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Level 17 is the level you are expected to be at when the game ends, both in the game and in the original adventure path, so you're fine.
 
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Level 5 Amiri vs. the Stag Lord boss fight w/ CotW
d233evx.png
 

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