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Pathfinder Pathfinder: Kingmaker - Enhanced Plus Edition - now with turn-based combat

Trashos

Arcane
Joined
Dec 28, 2015
Messages
3,413
What advantages are there to a non-Linzi diplomat?

You get to avoid having Linzi as a diplomat. Linzi obviously has a high CHA score, but she is immature, and her "solutions" mirror that. It blew her mind that I did not want outsiders casually trespassing our borders.

So I kept dismissing her advice, and she still did not leave the position (she is loyal, I give her that). That makes her ultimately passable, but I am looking for something better. (here comes Bart!)
 

ArchAngel

Arcane
Joined
Mar 16, 2015
Messages
20,130
Bloody hell! I think I am beginning to realize the full extend of Nyrissa's punishment.

I am in Lamashtu's pussy, and I just spoke with the gnome again. The gnome talks about how I have so much in common with Nyrissa. What the hell, what do I have in common with Nyrissa? Is he out of his mind?

Then it dawned on me.

Nyrissa "sought a Kingdom", and for this hybris she was punished by the Lantern King to destroy 1000 kingdoms. In other words, Nyrissa was tasked to seek atonement BY DESTROYING PEOPLE WHO ARE LIKE HER, people who wanted to be kings! Metaphorically, she had to destroy herself a thousand times over!

In addition: at the end of Chapter 7 (and now I definitely have to play Ch7 again), the Lantern King made a remark to Nyrissa that she was too obedient (I do not remember his exact words). I think his point was that she did not deserve a kingdom, because she did not have the attitude required for the position.

Therefore, not only was Nyrissa tasked to destroy "herself" a thousand times over, but this also served to remind her *a thousand times over* that she did not deserve a kingdom!

Man, this game is turning into an all time favorite for me. So much stuff going on, it is insane. I do not think I have ever seen anything like it in a game before. I have trouble accepting that this game actually exists.

Ok, let me play the devil's advocate here. For the record, that part of Nyrissa's story is not the worst part of Shitmaker writing or anything (the fucking endless invasions of shit she sends your way would be), but I think you are overrating this part. So the Lantern King is a king, so why exactly is he punishing her? They are both feys, right? What is her exact hubris? And her behavior in general (bringing all the destruction and suffering she did to Stolen Lands over the eons) makes her a twat and not a true tragic character, who would just blow their brains out or something.

The Lantern King is much higher up the hierarchy than Nyrissa. You will see towards the end.

I think that Nyrissa's hybris is partly similar to Irenicus' hybris in BG2:
Iirc, she wanted to become an Elder. Those are the fey's Gods. But you will have to let me get to her dream dungeon again, to make sure I remember this correctly.

But there is more to it, and it ties in with what you are mentioning at the end. To seek atonement, she was tasked by the Lantern King to destroy 1000 kingdoms. By being obedient and doing so, she proves that she does not deserve a kingdom, because real kings build kingdoms, they do not just destroy kingdoms.

What was her alternative? To disobey the Lantern King. Once you get to know what the Lantern King is, you will find out that this would also be hybris. The Lantern King is not evil iirc, but he is a prankster. He put Nyrissa in a position where she is damned if she does, and she is damned if she doesn't.
It is more than this.
Lantern King didn't just punish her, he takes her soul/love and leaves her single minded and with no empathy. To get it back she needs to do what he says.
 

rashiakas

Cipher
Patron
Joined
Oct 4, 2011
Messages
820
Pathfinder: Wrath
Here is another picture

"A 4th level size becomes medium, dex +2 con +2... "

wtf?


Per rules it should get Size Medium; Attack bite (1d6), 2 claws (1d3); Ability Scores Str +4, Dex –2, Con +2; Special Qualities sprint.

Seems like the game does the right thing and the tooltip is wrong.
 

Trashos

Arcane
Joined
Dec 28, 2015
Messages
3,413
It is more than this.
Lantern King didn't just punish her, he takes her soul/love and leaves her single minded and with no empathy. To get it back she needs to do what he says.

True! But I do not understand exactly what this means. Ultimately, I believe that the Lantern King wanted Nyrissa to disobey him. His task was a challenge to Nyrissa to disobey him. That's why he accuses her at the end of being too obedient.

But how will she do that, if he has taken her soul? I do not understand this point yet. Maybe it is just a metaphor to show that he broke her spirit. I have to look into it further.
 

Desiderius

Found your egg, Robinett, you sneaky bastard
Patron
Joined
Jul 22, 2019
Messages
14,191
Insert Title Here Pathfinder: Wrath
Lantern King didn't just punish her, he takes her soul/love and leaves her single minded and with no empathy. To get it back she needs to do what he says.

Wow, this really can be read as the plight of the modern woman.
 
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Desiderius

Found your egg, Robinett, you sneaky bastard
Patron
Joined
Jul 22, 2019
Messages
14,191
Insert Title Here Pathfinder: Wrath
What advantages are there to a non-Linzi diplomat?

You get to avoid having Linzi as a diplomat. Linzi obviously has a high CHA score, but she is immature, and her "solutions" mirror that. It blew her mind that I did not want outsiders casually trespassing our borders.

So I kept dismissing her advice, and she still did not leave the position (she is loyal, I give her that). That makes her ultimately passable, but I am looking for something better. (here comes Bart!)

Bart is a furry.
 

ArchAngel

Arcane
Joined
Mar 16, 2015
Messages
20,130
It is more than this.
Lantern King didn't just punish her, he takes her soul/love and leaves her single minded and with no empathy. To get it back she needs to do what he says.

True! But I do not understand exactly what this means. Ultimately, I believe that the Lantern King wanted Nyrissa to disobey him. His task was a challenge to Nyrissa to disobey him. That's why he accuses her at the end of being too obedient.

But how will she do that, if he has taken her soul? I do not understand this point yet. Maybe it is just a metaphor to show that he broke her spirit. I have to look into it further.
Well she wanted to make a kingdom where there would be more love, more nice things and all that. He took her soul and ability to love and forced her to murder, kill, destroy and do and become everything opposite.
When you are in her dreams you learn that she wanted to rule with her sisters, she wanted a realm for all of them to enjoy. Then later without her soul she turns her sisters into tools of destruction and does terrible things to them in the process.
Lantern King's Curse completely destroyed her.
 

Desiderius

Found your egg, Robinett, you sneaky bastard
Patron
Joined
Jul 22, 2019
Messages
14,191
Insert Title Here Pathfinder: Wrath
It is more than this.
Lantern King didn't just punish her, he takes her soul/love and leaves her single minded and with no empathy. To get it back she needs to do what he says.

True! But I do not understand exactly what this means. Ultimately, I believe that the Lantern King wanted Nyrissa to disobey him. His task was a challenge to Nyrissa to disobey him. That's why he accuses her at the end of being too obedient.

But how will she do that, if he has taken her soul? I do not understand this point yet. Maybe it is just a metaphor to show that he broke her spirit. I have to look into it further.

No, he wants to recreate her in his image. He’s a trickster because he gave up on true authority. He wants to make her as impotent as he turned out to be.
 

ga♥

Arcane
Vatnik
Joined
Feb 3, 2017
Messages
7,618
I can confirm, Bart is the best diplomat. Tsanna is the best councilor. And finally, Vordakai is the best Magister.

Sadly, if you pick Vordy you can't experience the new content of the dlc during the main campaign meh.
 

ArchAngel

Arcane
Joined
Mar 16, 2015
Messages
20,130
I can confirm, Bart is the best diplomat. Tsanna is the best councilor. And finally, Vordakai is the best Magister.

Sadly, if you pick Vordy you can't experience the new content of the dlc during the main campaign meh.
I used Vordakai as councilor in my NE Necro run. He has fun conversations with the main character.
 

ga♥

Arcane
Vatnik
Joined
Feb 3, 2017
Messages
7,618
It is more than this.
Lantern King didn't just punish her, he takes her soul/love and leaves her single minded and with no empathy. To get it back she needs to do what he says.

True! But I do not understand exactly what this means. Ultimately, I believe that the Lantern King wanted Nyrissa to disobey him. His task was a challenge to Nyrissa to disobey him. That's why he accuses her at the end of being too obedient.

But how will she do that, if he has taken her soul? I do not understand this point yet. Maybe it is just a metaphor to show that he broke her spirit. I have to look into it further.
Well she wanted to make a kingdom where there would be more love, more nice things and all that. He took her soul and ability to love and forced her to murder, kill, destroy and do and become everything opposite.
When you are in her dreams you learn that she wanted to rule with her sisters, she wanted a realm for all of them to enjoy. Then later without her soul she turns her sisters into tools of destruction and does terrible things to them in the process.
Lantern King's Curse completely destroyed her.

He never forced her to murder and bring havoc. Thing is, he stripped her of her ability to love, not the empathy (this is my understanding). He left he arrogance, which was the problem to begin with (she wanted to become a god, don't forget).

If you finish the game in chap VI, sparing her, she becomes an Eldest too.
 

Trashos

Arcane
Joined
Dec 28, 2015
Messages
3,413
I have completely changed my mind on Tartuccio, btw. He is a great character. His focused effort to do some good for once in his (after)life, even after turning into a lowly Kobold, is almost moving. Too bad I destroyed it for him, and I had to, but this makes his story even darker. He sought atonement and meant well at the end, but he still went about it the wrong way.

At any rate, he almost deserved to be a King at the end.

No, he wants to recreate her in his image. He’s a trickster because he gave up on true authority. He wants to make her as impotent as he turned out to be.

I have to think about this, not sure I agree. The Lantern King looks obviously tired at the end, but this is after the MC messed with his plans. Things also did not go as expected with Tartuccio, but this is also recent. What reason have we to believe that the Lantern King was already demoralized before the MC showed up?
 
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Desiderius

Found your egg, Robinett, you sneaky bastard
Patron
Joined
Jul 22, 2019
Messages
14,191
Insert Title Here Pathfinder: Wrath
I have completely changed my mind on Tartuccio, btw. He is a great character. His focused effort to do some good for once in his (after)life, even after turning into a lowly Kobold, is almost moving. Too bad I destroyed it for him, and I had to, but this makes his story even darker. He sought atonement and meant well at the end, but he still went about it the wrong way.

At any rate, he almost deserved to be a King at the end.

No, he wants to recreate her in his image. He’s a trickster because he gave up on true authority. He wants to make her as impotent as he turned out to be.

I have to think about this, not sure I agree. The Lantern King looks obviously tired at the end, but this is after the MC messed with his plans. Things also did not go as expected with Tartuccio, but this is also recent. What reason have we to believe that the Lantern King was already demoralized before the MC showed up?

Tricksters are failed creators.
 

ga♥

Arcane
Vatnik
Joined
Feb 3, 2017
Messages
7,618
It's the exact opposite. Trickester archetypes are more often creators than not in most mythologies.
 

Desiderius

Found your egg, Robinett, you sneaky bastard
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Messages
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Insert Title Here Pathfinder: Wrath
It's the exact opposite. Trickester archetypes are more often creators than not in most mythologies.

If they could author, they’d be in a position of authority, rather than undermining it.

When Hal became Henry, Falstaff had to go.
 

ga♥

Arcane
Vatnik
Joined
Feb 3, 2017
Messages
7,618
It depends on what you mean by undermining. The undermining is a byproduct not the aim of tricksters. They don't follow rules (so authority), hence new things happen. Sometimes even new rules.

Take the Coyote in Nat. americans, or Loki.
 

Trashos

Arcane
Joined
Dec 28, 2015
Messages
3,413
Tricksters are failed creators.

I think being a trickster is just his position in the flow of things. At some point he talks about how his craft is just one of the ropes that keeps the world together (or sth like that), and it is needed just like everything else.

It may well be just an excuse, but it looks convincing to me. The way I see it, the main storyline is that the MC becomes a mature and worthy ruler after having to deal with all the shit that the Lantern King threw his way. That was the school, and the Lantern King was the teacher.

The same theme plays out with Tartuccio and Nyrissa. They have to respond to the Lantern King's challenges in order to become worthy rulers. Tartuccio fell short, but he almost made it by the end. He developed a lot. Nyrissa's outcome depends on MC's choices, but it is the same deal.
 

Desiderius

Found your egg, Robinett, you sneaky bastard
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Joined
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14,191
Insert Title Here Pathfinder: Wrath
It depends on what you mean by undermining. The undermining is a byproduct not the aim of tricksters. They don't follow rules (so authority), hence new things happen. Sometimes even new rules.

Take the Coyote in Nat. americans, or Loki.

When first young Maro in his boundless mind
A work t' outlast immortal Rome design'd,
Perhaps he seem'd above the critic's law,
And but from Nature's fountains scorn'd to draw:
But when t' examine ev'ry part he came,
Nature and Homer were, he found, the same.
Convinc'd, amaz'd, he checks the bold design,
And rules as strict his labour'd work confine,
As if the Stagirite o'erlook'd each line.
Learn hence for ancient rules a just esteem;
To copy nature is to copy them.

Some beauties yet, no precepts can declare,
For there's a happiness as well as care.
Music resembles poetry, in each
Are nameless graces which no methods teach,
And which a master-hand alone can reach.
If, where the rules not far enough extend,
(Since rules were made but to promote their end)
Some lucky LICENCE answers to the full
Th' intent propos'd, that licence is a rule.
Thus Pegasus, a nearer way to take,
May boldly deviate from the common track.
Great wits sometimes may gloriously offend,
And rise to faults true critics dare not mend;
From vulgar bounds with brave disorder part,
And snatch a grace beyond the reach of art,
Which, without passing through the judgment, gains
The heart, and all its end at once attains.
In prospects, thus, some objects please our eyes,
Which out of nature's common order rise,
The shapeless rock, or hanging precipice.
But tho' the ancients thus their rules invade,
(As kings dispense with laws themselves have made)
Moderns, beware! or if you must offend
Against the precept, ne'er transgress its end;
Let it be seldom, and compell'd by need,
And have, at least, their precedent to plead.
 

Desiderius

Found your egg, Robinett, you sneaky bastard
Patron
Joined
Jul 22, 2019
Messages
14,191
Insert Title Here Pathfinder: Wrath
Tricksters are failed creators.

I think being a trickster is just his position in the flow of things. At some point he talks about how his craft is just one of the ropes that keeps the world together (or sth like that), and it is needed just like everything else.

It may well be just an excuse, but it looks convincing to me. The way I see it, the main storyline is that the MC becomes a mature and worthy ruler after having to deal with all the shit that the Lantern King threw his way. That was the school, and the Lantern King was the teacher.

The same theme plays out with Tartuccio and Nyrissa. They have to respond to the Lantern King's challenges in order to become worthy rulers. Tartuccio fell short, but he almost made it by the end. He developed a lot. Nyrissa's outcome depends on MC's choices, but it is the same deal.

Maggots play an indispensable role in the food chain, but nobody starts out wanting to be a maggot.

Cf. Harrim’s Story.
 
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Self-Ejected

underground nymph

I care not!
Patron
Joined
Jun 9, 2019
Messages
1,252
Strap Yourselves In
Why can’t I permanently kill companions?
Why can’t I skip their stupid chatting during the rest?
Why the writing is so for teenagers?
Why can’t I give a fuck about story they are trying to tell me?

This game stinks of decline while being an incline overall. I’m confused.
 

Zumbabul

Savant
Joined
Jan 14, 2017
Messages
211
I have completely changed my mind on Tartuccio, btw. He is a great character. His focused effort to do some good for once in his (after)life, even after turning into a lowly Kobold, is almost moving. Too bad I destroyed it for him, and I had to, but this makes his story even darker. He sought atonement and meant well at the end, but he still went about it the wrong way.

At any rate, he almost deserved to be a King at the end.

I started my first playthrough as chaotic neutral. So I was given an option to spare Tartuccio. And I just couldnot kill him. I felt so much compassion for him. His story really touched my heart.

He deserved to be a king, and in my playthrough he became a King.
 

Zumbabul

Savant
Joined
Jan 14, 2017
Messages
211
In my playthrough, I killed trolls but spare Tarctuccio with his kobolds. Tartuccio established kobolds kingdom, and became my vassal. He didn't caused me any troubles later.

However, the kobolds destroyed the enterance to the dungeon, after the final fight in chapter 2. So I could not get in later. That is why I failed Harim quest. Since I didn't use him, it's not a big deal.

I think if you are evil you can spare troll king, but I'm not sure.
 

Zumbabul

Savant
Joined
Jan 14, 2017
Messages
211
One of the things I like in pathfinder is its story. It is very light themed. At first, it may seems that story is not important, that it is just a background. However, sometimes there are really strong moments that reach your soul. Like Tartuccio at the end of the chapter 2.
 

Trashos

Arcane
Joined
Dec 28, 2015
Messages
3,413
I have made a lengthy series of posts in the previous pages about the game's themes. It is not lightly themed at all, quite the opposite. It is probably the most densely themed game I have ever seen. However, the themes are rarely in the player's face, and so the effect you are describing is produced. I think this was a good idea, because it allows players who don't care about such things to focus on the things they care about.

But if you care about it, there many posts ITT discussing the themes of forgiveness/atonement, what it takes to be a worthy ruler, what does one story matter, attitude towards authority etc-etc. And once you see them, you cannot unsee them.
 

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