Pathfinder Pathfinder: Kingmaker - Enhanced Plus Edition - now with turn-based combat

[Pink Eye]

Magnat Sweeper said something bad.

 

[Heroic Liberator]

Magnat Sweeper said something bad.

Thank you, comrade informer.

 

[Nano]

Y'know, I'm gonna have to agree that this isn't a very good storyfag game. The writing is competent enough, but there's something about it that puts me to sleep. It just feels dry.

 

[Heroic Liberator]

Y'know, I'm gonna have to agree that this isn't a very good storyfag game. The writing is competent enough, but there's something about it that puts me to sleep. It just feels dry.

It's the same as BG1 - serviceable.

 

[Nano]

It's the same as BG1 - serviceable.

At least BG1 had its moments of levity with the pop culture references and joke NPCs, Kingmaker takes itself too seriously.

 

[Heroic Liberator]

It's the same as BG1 - serviceable.

At least BG1 had its moments of levity with the pop culture references and joke NPCs.

Not a fan of these.

 

[Desiderius]

Y'know, I'm gonna have to agree that this isn't a very good storyfag game. The writing is competent enough, but there's something about it that puts me to sleep. It just feels dry.

Yeah, sixth time through I find myself skipping a lot of it.

 

[Gangrelrumbler]

I actually did. Yes, the trash mobs were repetitive, but who cares about those? It had some fun boss fights (soloing the witch was one of the high points of my first playthrough, and the worm-that-walks was no slouch).

Funny, my experience was completely different. The witch was super-easy, I just used usual buffs and stomped her. Wiggly man didn't do much, took 6 AOE spells to the face and died. Random Mandragora swarms were far more deadly than this dude. Random encounters on the other hand were a terrible slog to get through.

I really don't understand that sentiment. By this point in the game, you're bound to have a favourite party. Why wouldn't you do the sidequests for the people you take with you at all times? And why would you care about the other people dying if you didn't even care to do their sidequests properly?

Remember that you still need someone to replace Linzi if you had her in your party. Also it's possible that someone might have a favorite party which was changed later, after some of the sub-quests expired, since these are time-limited. Theoretically you can screw yourself over in a 100+ hours long game in the second chapter.
The other issue is that it adds nothing interesting to the game. You either did all the quests and can just ignore the entire thing or you didn't and you lose some chars. The only interesting part if getting to keep both Tristan and Jaethal .

 

[Mr. Magniloquent]

Nano o Nyrissa should never have been introduced nor revealed as an antagonist prior to the bloom completion. Her coaxing towards the Stag Lord was irrelevant. He was already on the list. Her presence basically eliminated any sense of mystery the player was supposed to have with unraveling the curses and crisis. Instead of chasing these crumbs to find the root, the player is merely playing catch-up for something they were shown right away. The writing overall was still serviceable, very few cringes or eye-rolls, but that doesn't change that the plot tripped on the starting line.

 

[Xamenos]

Funny, my experience was completely different. The witch was super-easy, I just used usual buffs and stomped her. Wiggly man didn't do much, took 6 AOE spells to the face and died. Random Mandragora swarms were far more deadly than this dude. Random encounters on the other hand were a terrible slog to get through.

I suspect you missed that I soloed the witch. It's also very possible we played at different difficulties. And I don't understand how you had 6 AOE spells to throw at the guy and still had trouble with swarms.

Remember that you still need someone to replace Linzi if you had her in your party. Also it's possible that someone might have a favorite party which was changed later, after some of the sub-quests expired, since these are time-limited. Theoretically you can screw yourself over in a 100+ hours long game in the second chapter.

Linzi's fate is a legitimate criticism, and one of my few problems with the game. She was, however, not one of the things you originally mentioned, or I was responding too. As for the rest of the companions, it's a sad day when people complain about the game giving you the Choice to ignore your companions' plight, and have them betray you and die as a Consequence.

The other issue is that it adds nothing interesting to the game. You either did all the quests and can just ignore the entire thing or you didn't and you lose some chars. The only interesting part if getting to keep both Tristan and Jaethal .

I suppose we'll have to agree to disagree on this one. I found it perfectly interesting. But then again, I don't ignore my companions in any RPG as a matter of principle.

Nano o Nyrissa should never have been introduced nor revealed as an antagonist prior to the bloom completion. Her coaxing towards the Stag Lord was irrelevant. He was already on the list. Her presence basically eliminated any sense of mystery the player was supposed to have with unraveling the curses and crisis. Instead of chasing these crumbs to find the root, the player is merely playing catch-up for something they were shown right away. The writing overall was still serviceable, very few cringes or eye-rolls, but that doesn't change that the plot tripped on the starting line.

Would BG1 have been better if Sarevok wasn't introduced or revealed as an antagonist immediately? Would BG2, without Irenicus there at the start? What is it with people wanting a "sense of mystery" everywhere nowadays?

 

[Pink Eye]

Nano o Nyrissa should never have been introduced nor revealed as an antagonist prior to the bloom completion. Her coaxing towards the Stag Lord was irrelevant. He was already on the list. Her presence basically eliminated any sense of mystery the player was supposed to have with unraveling the curses and crisis. Instead of chasing these crumbs to find the root, the player is merely playing catch-up for something they were shown right away. The writing overall was still serviceable, very few cringes or eye-rolls, but that doesn't change that the plot tripped on the starting line.

Nryissa isn't the main player. The mad trickster is. He's the one who's pulling tricks and curses from behind the scenes, all for his own amusement. He's the antagonist. Not the mad f*y who is chasing for a lost piece of herself.

 

[Mr. Magniloquent]

Xamenos I do think BG1 would have been improved without the opening Sarevok animation. Without it, there isn't any initial connection between your attempted murder and the iron plot that unravels. The player doesn't have much reason to suspect the "armored figure" is THE villain, rather than a menacing henchman. The moody dreams and emergent powers aren't connected to anything, and provide a sense of mystery--something to look forward to, be curious about. Only when you come full circle back to Candlekeep do you get the big reveal over these mysteries and how they are intertwined.

That's very different from BG2, where Irenicus is your object the entire time. BG2 isn't about discovery, it's about the ride. The story is about getting Imoen back or exacting revenge. His early reveal is necessary, because he gives you somethinig to do. Curiosity is a very distant motivation and not supported well. Where BG2 would have been much improved, is if Irenicus had stolen your soul from the beginning and inflicted MotB-esque problems on the player. Holy cow, would that have been incredible. Different topic though.

The problem with Kingmaker's plot, is that it tries to create a grand sense of mystery about where the problems come from, which it basically tells you their source from the get-go. Every NPC expounds about the crisis being unknowable, when the player (functionally) does know. The game throws some twists in there, but as a player I ultimately didn't care because there was nothing to really discover in the first place. That's the importance of mystery. It gives the person something to be curious about, something to discover. It's a motivation to move forward. The allure of the unknown is powerful. In an age of instant information verging omniscience, that's a fantasy trope with a lot of value.

 

[DalekFlay]

I find compulsion to finish something you don't want to do anymore kind of OCD.

If you'd play and enjoy 99% of a 150 hour game and then quit because of an annoying final dungeon then hey, good on you I guess. Seems kind of stupid to me, and if that makes me OCD then where are my fucking meds.

 

[Gangrelrumbler]

I suspect you missed that I soloed the witch. It's also very possible we played at different difficulties. And I don't understand how you had 6 AOE spells to throw at the guy and still had trouble with swarms.

Easy
-Swarms are faster
-Swarms do unblockable damage and can kill most characters in seconds after getting to them
-Swarms are much, much tankier than him due to superior saving throws.
So average fight with a 4 mandragora swarms goes like this:
-Everyone who can cast an AOE spells does so
-Swarms lose 25% of HP and before the second wave is ready they are already attacking the party
-Everyone dies.
-Reload
Average fight against the worm dude
-Everyone who can cast AOE spells
-He teleports 10 meters away
-He gets hit with second wave of AOE and dies

Linzi's fate is a legitimate criticism, and one of my few problems with the game. She was, however, not one of the things you originally mentioned, or I was responding too. As for the rest of the companions, it's a sad day when people complain about the game giving you the Choice to ignore your companions' plight, and have them betray you and die as a Consequence.

Just because there are Choices TM and Consequences TM doesn't mean they improve the game in any way. Example of good CnC would be the beginning of game where you are presented with 2 sets of choices with no obviously good or bad answers. Then depending on your actions you need to complete the first chapter with a different parties. Which makes it future replays more interesting.
Meanwhile the final chapter just takes away options who didn't 100% the game. Everyone who replays the game in the future will remember to do every quests for every companion in case they'll want to change party composition later in the game.
This is part of a larger issue with companion quests in P:K. In Baldur's Gate 2 players will most likely only learn and complete quests of characters they've taken into the party, the other ones will remain a mystery. So for example desire beating the game twice I still know very little about Haer'Dalis. In P:K the quests are pretty much forced upon players. They will always learn about them, there are stretches in the game where there is nothing else to do except for the companion quests and due to the last chapter they are pretty much mandatory.
As a result after beating P:K once I know everything there is to know about every characters, and there isn't any reason to replay the game ever since I've gotten perfect resolution to almost every quest. BG2 actually has better CnC in that regards despite not really trying.

I suppose we'll have to agree to disagree on this one. I found it perfectly interesting. But then again, I don't ignore my companions in any RPG as a matter of principle.

I did all the quests, and literally nothing happened. It's interesting how I'd get punished for not doing them. What exactly is interesting about that situation. As it is now the game could just as well require all the companion quests to be completed before proceeding further. Mine and yours playthroughs would look exactly the same, but it would save frustration for some people.
In short I just don't find CnC where there are 2 choices: one obviously good and the other obviously bad interesting.

 

[Pink Eye]

Xamenos I do think BG1 would have been improved without the opening Sarevok animation. Without it, there isn't any initial connection between your attempted murder and the iron plot that unravels. The player doesn't have much reason to suspect the "armored figure" is THE villain, rather than a menacing henchman. The moody dreams and emergent powers aren't connected to anything, and provide a sense of mystery--something to look forward to, be curious about. Only when you come full circle back to Candlekeep do you get the big reveal over these mysteries and how they are intertwined.

That's very different from BG2, where Irenicus is your object the entire time. BG2 isn't about discovery, it's about the ride. The story is about getting Imoen back or exacting revenge. His early reveal is necessary, because he gives you somethinig to do. Curiosity is a very distant motivation and not supported well. Where BG2 would have been much improved, is if Irenicus had stolen your soul from the beginning and inflicted MotB-esque problems on the player. Holy cow, would that have been incredible. Different topic though.

The problem with Kingmaker's plot, is that it tries to create a grand sense of mystery about where the problems come from, which it basically tells you their source from the get-go. Every NPC expounds about the crisis being unknowable, when the player (functionally) does know. The game throws some twists in there, but as a player I ultimately didn't care because there was nothing to really discover in the first place. That's the importance of mystery. It gives the person something to be curious about, something to discover. It's a motivation to move forward. The allure of the unknown is powerful. In an age of instant information verging omniscience, that's a fantasy trope with a lot of value.

>The game throws some twists in there, but as a player I ultimately didn't care because there was nothing to really discover in the first place
What? Did you really not have fun figuring out how the real big bad was Lantern King not Nryissa. Or how he was responsible for all the curses that take place. Or that he was the reason why curses are as strong as they are? Isn't it strange how a curse said in passing has the capacity to ruin people's lives. Also the game does not spell out that Nyrissa is the reason why factions imploded on themselves and failed at conquering the lands. The game doesn't even tell you that she is important to the plot until much later.

 

[Desiderius]

I’ve heard that Jaethal is immune to Swarms drain attack. Creeping Doom is also a nice one against them.

 

[Lawntoilet]

I usually think game endings that try to be epic are annoying and repetitive at a point where you're really ready to move on and play something else, but I know others disagree. Wonder what a massive poll on that would find as it's honestly one of my biggest pet peeves, but a lot of people seem to enjoy it.

Well it depends on the rest of the game really, not every story needs a big huge epic ending. I agree it can be annoying and tryhard if it doesn't match the tone of the rest of the story (like Fallout or something) but something like Kingmaker or DA:O or KotOR, where it's appropriate, is something I find satisfying if it's well-executed.

Most of the best storyfag games have a more personal-scale story, but that doesn't make epic-scale stories inherently bad.

 

[Erebus]

The problem with Kingmaker's plot, is that it tries to create a grand sense of mystery about where the problems come from, which it basically tells you their source from the get-go. Every NPC expounds about the crisis being unknowable, when the player (functionally) does know. The game throws some twists in there, but as a player I ultimately didn't care because there was nothing to really discover in the first place. That's the importance of mystery. It gives the person something to be curious about, something to discover. It's a motivation to move forward. The allure of the unknown is powerful. In an age of instant information verging omniscience, that's a fantasy trope with a lot of value.

I think that surprise villains are difficult to pull off well. Either they're present right from the start and the player is likely to guess that they're villains before the game admits it (that's the problem with What's-her-face in Throne of Bhaal), or they appear at the eleventh hour and the player is often given little reason to care about them (that's the problem with What's-his-face in Icewind Dale 1 and What's-his-name in Arcanum).


I had a look at a few of Pathfinder's adventure paths, and their plots often seem to be along the lines of "Villain A is manipulating Villain B who's manipulating Villains C, D, E and F, who have a bunch of lesser villains under their orders, and the lesser villains also have their own servants." The existence of villains A and B is something that the players usually learn quite late, and it's quite possible that the party won't even get a chance to kick Villain A's ass. Such things may work in pen-and-paper, but I don't think they'd be very satisfying in a video game.

 

[Lawntoilet]

I think that surprise villains are difficult to pull off well. Either they're present right from the start and the player is likely to guess that they're villains before the game admits it (that's the problem with What's-her-face in Throne of Bhaal), or they appear at the eleventh hour and the player is often given little reason to care about them (that's the problem with What's-his-face in Icewind Dale 1 and What's-his-name in Arcanum).

Arcanum is weird in that you think you've got the villain figured out, based on what you learn from Virgil and Nasruddin, and the vision that "attacks" you at one point. But then the twist comes along but doesn't really change very much, it still turns out you were 90% correct. I do think it's an OK twist, but it seems a little arbitrary since by taking all of the steps to confront the person you thought was the villain, you still took all of the right steps to confront the actual villain.

I guess that is kind of the case in Kingmaker with the Lantern King, too.

 

[Gangrelrumbler]

I’ve heard that Jaethal is immune to Swarms drain attack. Creeping Doom is also a nice one against them.

Thanks, I've never used her. But that would make sense since summoned undeads worked against them. Still it wouldn't help me in any way even if I did use her since I've gotten a good ending to her quest. Which means she's not an undead in the final chapter.

 

[Sweeper]

Random encounters are rearranging my rectum.
I got 4 archers and two raging cunts that decimate my frontline.
It's like, let me prebuff bro.

 

[Pink Eye]

Random encounters are rearranging my rectum.
I got 4 archers and two raging cunts that decimate my frontline.
It's like, let me prebuff bro.

Broo. Me too. I just had my butt kicked twice in my youtube unfair monk thingy.

Spoiler

 

[Perkel]

18th can't come soon enough.

 

[Pink Eye]

18th can't come soon enough.

What is happening on the 18th?

 

[Gangrelrumbler]

18th can't come soon enough.

What is happening on the 18th?

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