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Pathfinder Pathfinder: Kingmaker - Enhanced Plus Edition - now with turn-based combat

Xamenos

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I have no idea why several posters here are so against discussing ideas-to-try. That's like my favorite pastime. Am I derailing the thread? I have never seen this attitude before.

I *am* interested in trying it, that's why I am discussing it. Right now I have a Hard playthrough going, so it is going to take a while.
Well, you are stepping into a conflict of "theorycrafting" vs "actual experience" that is literally more than a decade old across various DnD-related discussions and forums. And you are unfortunate enough to come down on the side of theorycrafting in one of the very few places in the internet where theorycrafters get the rope. It's no wonder you've never seen this attitude before, almost everywhere else is dominated by theorycrafters shouting down (or banning) the opposition.

Now speaking for myself, you are far from the worst of your kind and you have indeed made some valuable contributions. But you are catching flak that's meant for your practices and not you personally. I have tried to be polite in our disagreements, and I'm sorry if I don't always succeed.
 

Trashos

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I didn't know that this was going on. At any rate, my training has been to go theory-->practice-->experience-->better practice, so that is what makes sense to me.

I do not mind the attacks, I am a big boy. I have no issues with people having different styles than mine either. Generally speaking, what I find strange is confining such a rich game as Kingmaker to a single angle of approach for all. The game allows for several different styles, and that should be celebrated afaic, especially because it is rare.
 

LannTheStupid

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Actually, I might add something more.

To test an idea a tabletopper has to find his beer drinking neckbeards, gather them together, find a DM and be sure that the DM will allow the build he wants to test. This is social interaction with disgusting humans. In this case theorycrafting is preferable.

All is needed to test an idea for a CRPG player is to launch the game, build the class and find some enemies. Or load an old save, respec whomever he wants and again - go through some fights. One way or another respecs are supported in most of relatively new CRPG (starting from DA: O). In such conditions I see no reason to discuss theories instead of testing them right away.
 
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NJClaw

OoOoOoOoOoh
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Pathfinder: Wrath I'm very into cock and ball torture
All is needed to test an idea for a CRPG player is to launch the game, build the class and find some enemies. Or load an old save, respec whomever he wants and again - go through some fights. One way or another respecs are supported in most of relatively new CRPG (starting from DA: O). In such conditions I see no reason to discuss theories instead of testing them right away.
Mmmmmmmmmmh, it's almost like... people actually enjoy discussing videogames and other things they care about. Mmmmmmmmmmh...

tenor.gif
 

Trashos

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I found some spectres, I respecced to an undead bloodline Sorcerer, and I tested whether Enchantments and Illusions work on them. Apparently, everything I tried worked except for Confusion. Testing was done with v.2.0.8 without mods.

WORKED: Phantasmal Killer, Phantasmal Web, Rainbow Pattern, Hold Person, Hideous Laughter
DID NOT WORK: Confusion

Needless to say, my next playthrough is going to be as an undead bloodline Sorcerer.
 

Xamenos

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See LannTheStupid? This is why Trashos doesn't deserve to be scorned. Unlike most of his kind, he is actually willing to learn and occasionally test his theories.
 
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Neither the elemental robes (+2 DC element) nor elemental focus feats interact with the sorcerer's elemental bloodline arcana feature. Disappointing. I was hoping I could pump spells like Constricting Coils by 4 DC with those robes and feats.
 

LannTheStupid

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See LannTheStupid? This is why Trashos doesn't deserve to be scorned.
Funny, I have come to completely opposite conclusion. Trashos had to be scorned to pull him off his theorycrafting and to make him test his ideas. And, in this particular case, he does not need to discuss anymore after testing. From the validation point of view I think his test is solid and, consequently, his conclusion correct.

I think it is unique atmosphere of the Codex with its toxic, but free discussion and (relative) lack of bans that forces people to come out from their info-bubbles and show the best intellectual qualities, if there are any. I wonder how modern "cancel culture" will affect the western intellectual potential in the next 15-25 years, when present-day SJW's will rise to the top.

Trashos why Sorcerer and not Wizard? Because the only way to make Illusion spells work on Undead is undead bloodline, and bloodlines are available only for Sorcerers? Or am I missing something?
 

smaug

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Got to the beginning of Chapter 6 (?) HATEOT, lost all my companions and now big puzzle dungeon.

Going to take a break and finish up later when I feel motivated to play again.

Game is great up until Pitax, then the decline is obvious.

(Haven't finished but will critique what I did play)

-Wilderness areas are a mixed bag, I think Baldur's Gate 1 had bad exploration due to no stat checks or interesting exploration design (endless forest and hills, slow.) but Kingmaker helps correct this issue by making them small, but too many of them lack interesting content and a lot have poor encounters, would have preferred bigger areas with more stat checks and nicely balanced content. (Really hated the areas with one weak monster against a full buffed party, which made no sense.) In Chapters 1-3 you have quite a bit of large well designed areas though after this you start seeing a lot less. (Lonely Barrows was a great side dungeon, well designed for an offhand optional area.)

-Boss fights so far have been meh, Stag Lord's fight is great (if you do it without the help of the other bandits or at level 5.). Troll fight was p. good. Vordaki was garbage (have no idea why devs never buffed him, a bandit mage is more threatening than a Lich Cyclops.). Armag was a bit too weak, and Irovetti was quite difficult, especially with the snake woman. Maybe the bosses get better (we'll know eventually.), but I think certain bosses definitely could use some more buffs.

-Kingdom Management system is impactful and I didn't see it's final impact yet, (won't because auto'd due to auto-failed main quest.), but I generally didn't find it that fun or engaging, would rather play a game designed around Kingdom building than a more tacked on system. (I think WOTR's crusader system has a lot more potential, I guess I will wait and see.)

-Encounter design is good for the way it was intended aka endurance test. Somewhat repetitive but I had a lot of fun with encounters more in the early game (This is D&D so I expect the best encounters to be at lower levels, obviously.)

-The progression of the game sucks but is to be expected, Chapter 1 is my favorite chapter and I think its the best content wise and has a ton of C&C for a first chapter (lots of great stuff like CH2 from Baldur's Gate 2). Game generally goes downhill after Vordaki's, I haven't played CH6/7 but I don't expect to be blown away quality wise.). Barbarians onward I think the decline starts to show. (Especially Pitax.)

-One of the best things about the game is definitely the reactivity (alighntment, not race or reputation.) was fantastic. (Played a neutral good druid.) One of it's greatest improvements on the infinity engine games. I loved when Irovetti was talking shit about me and he mentioned his asshole servant that I choose to kill in the Troll Ambush (Little things like that in the game are great.)

-Char building is of course fantastic and one of the de facto achievements of the game.

-There is so much more to be talked about and critiqued, but the list would be too long. My general impression was the game was a bit too ambitious and lacked proper funding and time for a project so ambitious, they added so many features with a lot potential but I think it was too much, though it was nice to see an attempt rather than ignore the issues of the IE games.

My only RPG's that I've played are BG1, BG2 (up till chapter 3), Wizardry 1, Half of IWD and some parts of a couple others so I don't have much if all any experience with rpgs.
 

Trashos

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Brofisted, but Ch6 is one of my favorite chapters, and I wish it were earlier so that it made everyone quit earlier.

Xamenos, LannTheStupid, I am an engineer by training, not a theorist btw. I just start from theory, because such was my training. But Kingmaker has too many things to test, so do not expect that I will be testing everything.

why Sorcerer and not Wizard? Because the only way to make Illusion spells work on Undead is undead bloodline, and bloodlines are available only for Sorcerers? Or am I missing something?

Exactly. I do not even mind the loss of flexibility for Sorcerers, I know the game content well by now to make my choices. I only lament that I am going to get Weird, one of my favorite spells, even later.
 

hell bovine

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Trashos
You'd have to test whether this still works, because I haven't played the game recently, but: sorcerer bloodlines were applying to all arcane spells when multiclassed. So for example: Linzi with one level in undead sorceress could use her bard spells on undead. But perhaps they've patched it away.
 

Trashos

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hell bovine, that is very interesting. I just tested it with Sorc1/Wiz13, and indeed it still works! It means I can retain the full flexibility (and bonus feats) of a Wizard, and spell up fast until I reach the Varnhold chapter (where I will be getting the Sorc level), getting spells like Haste and Phantasmal Web earlier. This is huge.

And since I tested again, I tried some more spells on the spectres. Sorc1/Wiz13 undead bloodline. So the updated list is:

WORKED: Phantasmal Killer, Phantasmal Web, Rainbow Pattern, Hold Person, Hideous Laughter, Dominate Person, Overwhelming Grief, Serenity
DID NOT WORK: Confusion, Insanity, Deep Slumber, Cloak of Dreams

So it seems that everything from Illusion and Enchantment works on the spectres, except for Confusion (Confusion, Insanity) and Sleep (Deep Slumber, Cloak of Dreams) effects. Interestingly, Rainbow Pattern, which "fascinates", works.
 
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Trashos

Arcane
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I will be considering both cases. But with a Wiz I will be getting spell levels faster for a while. Then I can get the Sorc level when Varnhold starts.

Wizards also get a +4 INT Staff at V's tomb that stacks with everything (profane bonus). I haven't played Sorc and I do not know if they get something similar.

Sorc gets more spells per day and Persuasion, which is something. So there are things to consider.

EDIT: Removed the example, it was 1 level off. Wizards get Haste at start of Ch2, Sorc gets it just before Troll Lair.
 
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hell bovine

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Why not just go pure sorc
Well, last time I've tried serpentine sorcerer the bloodline abilities were bugged. I doubt they've fixed it, since it's not a popular bloodline choice, and anyway their bloodline spell selection wasn't very good. If you go serpentine/wizard, at least you get the wizard bonus feats and more flexibility with spells.

Undead sorcerer might be better.
 

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