Pathfinder Pathfinder: Kingmaker - Enhanced Plus Edition - now with turn-based combat

[Jackpot]

Question: If you take a Smilodon as a pet for Mad Dog, does the Smilodon get the improved trip on each attack, or is it a standard action?
I'm thinking that a leopard might be a better pet for Mad Dog if the trip doesn't apply to the Smilodon's attacks.

 

[Desiderius]

Standard unless you play CotW. Smilo is OP and large pets are a pain so Leopard works well. Mad dog is kind of boring tho.

 

[Efe]

are you misreading what improved trip does?
there is no trip per attack, its a single action like cleave or vital strike. best you can get it bite + cloak

 

[Jackpot]

are you misreading what improved trip does?
there is no trip per attack, its a single action like cleave or vital strike. best you can get it bite + cloak

I see, from what I read online it sounded like other pets did have a chance to trip per attack.

 

[Yosharian]

Failing at hitting AC would be missing lo.

Yes, of course? I thought you were making a reference to getting free attacks via Snake Fang when enemies hit your images? Not when they miss your AC completely?

Mirror Image https://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/m/mirror-image/

Whenever you are attacked or are the target of a spell that requires an attack roll, there is a possibility that the attack targets one of your images instead. If the attack is a hit, roll randomly to see whether the selected target is real or a figment. If it is a figment, the figment is destroyed. If the attack misses by 5 or less, one of your figments is destroyed by the near miss.

I know how mirror image works so I'm not sure why you just quoted it at me

 

[archaen]

are you misreading what improved trip does?
there is no trip per attack, its a single action like cleave or vital strike. best you can get it bite + cloak

I see, from what I read online it sounded like other pets did have a chance to trip per attack.

The trip feat is separate from the built in trip attempts on the bite of certain animal companions (wolf, dog, leopard). If an animal companion uses the trip feat it acts exactly the same as if a character used it.

 

[Desiderius]

In PnP and CotW it replaces an attack. Only Dirty Trick is supposed to be a Standard Action, and there’s the Quick Dirty Trick feat for that.

 

[Desiderius]

Back to the Depths with the Nature Fang teaming up with the Arrowsong Minstrel (this time with a Drill Sergeant Splash to pick up Martial Proficiency to get Halfling Sling Staff and Tactician to share Enfilading Shot) to continue the damage + debuff theme:

Spoiler

Bullseye Strike is Move Action +4 to hit, Frigid Touch is no Save Stagger using a Reach Rod to make it ranged touch. Staggered Hydra gets 1 attack instead of five, Storm Burst is no Save -2 to hit.

Here's the result. Storm Burst reduces Hydra hit chance per attack 2/3 and Touch turns five attacks into one. ~56% hit chance -> 5%. Pick up Mirror Image at lvl nine.

Swift action Demoralize from Omen Faith Trait. Scaled Fist/Dragon Disciple will soon have Shatter Defenses to take advantage of this set up. Holic added Obscuring Mist to all Stinking Clouds to prevent ranged cheese.

This is Holic's Animate Dead. You turn an actual Corpse (up to twice your own HD) into a skeleton that follows you around until it's killed. Probably worse than vanilla since there you could put it anywhere you wanted it. Same problem with Monster Tactician. If you enjoy kiting this own might work better for you.

What could have been if this DLC had been done right. All too rare sense of atmosphere. Falls well short of Caed Nua overall.

 

[Mangoose]

Failing at hitting AC would be missing lo.

Yes, of course? I thought you were making a reference to getting free attacks via Snake Fang when enemies hit your images? Not when they miss your AC completely?

Mirror Image https://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/m/mirror-image/

Whenever you are attacked or are the target of a spell that requires an attack roll, there is a possibility that the attack targets one of your images instead. If the attack is a hit, roll randomly to see whether the selected target is real or a figment. If it is a figment, the figment is destroyed. If the attack misses by 5 or less, one of your figments is destroyed by the near miss.

I know how mirror image works so I'm not sure why you just quoted it at me

Well, see, when they hit my mirror image, it means they failed at hitting me.

 

[Desiderius]

Nature Fang makes a nice Perception specialist as a WIS-based class with access to Trapfinding through Slayer Talents.

Spoiler

The Slayer version also gives you the lvl/2 bonus to Trickery and Nature Fang trades Wild Shaping for those Slayer Talents so is naturally suited to ranged so usually has high DEX, but... CotW also offers WIS to AB on Long Bow for Erastil worshippers, so good Trickery backup at least.

Owlbears are no joke with a lot of attacks so we go with the insurance policy of Bullseye Shot plus Reach Frigid Touch for no Save Stagger and... guess I deserved that crit miss. Reba is a Halfling Arrowsong Minstrel (Bard archetype) which gives her Arrowsong Strike. She also gets all Ray and Evocation Wiz spells to go along with it, along with Hurricane Bow and a couple other ranged spells. Arrowsrong Strike is Spellstrike without Spell Combat, so she's built to reliably land one big hit rather than several smaller ones. Bullseye Shot is perfect for that.

She's like an AT that gets an attack attached to her Rays instead of Sneaks. Of course you can still attach Sneaks to that attack via Sense Vitals and the like.

And she still brings Good Hope and Inspire Courage, so that's nice.

Here's a rare Snap Shot sighting. Warpriest is perfect for Snap Shot since it takes a shit ton of Feats to set up and Warpriest has a shit ton of Feats laying around. Also counts as full BAB and Fighter for Feat purposes so can get Point Blank Master and gets to Snap Shot Feats much faster than other 3/4 BAB classes.

Snap Shot is what turns on Coordinating Shot and Enfilading Shot for the other ranged characters since those Feats require someone in melee range threatening or flanking and without Snap Shot she wouldn't count for that even if she were standing right next to the target. It also turns on Outflank which is hard to do for a ranged build. And gets to use an awesome Shield as well.

Here's a similar situation. Ninj used Vanishing Trick to disappear, poor Worg tries to run by unawares, and Ninj ganks it from behind, just like a Ninja would. Great fun.

I've tested this Feat out and it is AWESOME. Free Action greatness. Only downside is I wasn't planning on Fighting Defensively or using Combat Expertise so will need Blade Tutor to offset the attack penalty. Will get that after Mirror Image so going for Dazzling Display into Shatter Defenses first.

Intentionally didn't go two-weapon on Ninja to avoid getting too powerful but... well, we'll head up to Hard soon. I think the flat-footed is from previous Feint but unsure. See also Battle Host tanking and Scaled Fist/DD owning. These are not trivial foes.

Haven't been doing a ton with Battle Host other than buffing, tanking, Feinting , and Disarming but Trappings of the Warrior (combination of Transmutation and Abjuration Implements) is no joke. Using a Trident since yet to find decent Flail (Deity's Weapon, comes with Disarm Bonus - Holic adds some CM bonuses to weaker weapon types = very good idea).

If you like TB I'd highly recommend the Occultist class. So many very solid options.

And here we are - first time I've ever found a Depths boss in DLC (yes, I have bad restartitis). Found Winter Wolf Cloak in literally the last chest right before this. Your girl doing you proud M. AQVILA!

Not sure the Trip was all that great given all the ranged attackers in this group, but Nature Fang fights through it. If I'd gotten Joan to the backside of the boss she'd have another +3 to hit from Enfilading and Coordinating Shot.

Why Dragon Disciple* instead of straight Scaled Fist? Have you met my friends Mirror and Image?

These adds are no joke. Without their Bows they're also no threat. Dazzling Blade buffs both Disarm and Bluff checks so is perfect for INT to Bluff Disarming Battle Host.

* DD turns out to be about adding some fast spell progression onto the back end of fighting classes (with some other serious benefits) instead of making your caster into a fighter. Is it better at that than EK? Depends if you want the Dragony stuff (the Bite is an additional PRIMARY attack so much better than Feral Mutation or Motherless), and Dragon Style Feats double the STR buffs and likes the INT buff to get to 8 Mobility.

You get the respawn from wiping or from killing a boss. Either way you get a boon and vendor upgrade for all subsequent playthroughs.

 

[Yosharian]

Oh forget it, like arguing with a brick wall!

 

[Desiderius]

CotW has a first level Wiz/Sorc/Alchemist/Witch spell https://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/l/long-arm/ that is a strange one. Not sure if it only works on Unarmed attacks or not, but have been casting it in the Scaled Fist/DD.

Spoiler

Combined with Enlarge you just sit in the middle of a bunch of mobs and pummel them all with your iteratives without having to worry about Cleave.

The Druid here with Storms Subdomain using basic subdomain ability to good effect. Nice to have a Touch attack that bypasses SR and debuffs attacks always on tap. Sonic damage from 8th level Bard ability https://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/discordant-voice/

Here it's not so good. Worg was standing between Rap and Ninj so not only should have had Flanking and Outflank but also had to deal with Soft Cover. No worries.

Here you can see the Worg at beginning of fight. Those extra levels tacked on up the difficulty significantly. Funny thing about Battle Host is she's wearing Heavy and Tower Shield but has lowest HP in party.

Pretty nice Will Save for lvl 11. Ninj should have taken five-foot to turn on Sneaks.

Massive Strength of Scaled Fist/Dragon Disciple also means nice safe CMD.

Trip Cloak isn't so great for setting up ranged attacks but does help out the Ninja. Sweep the Leg coming up soon to help with her own attacks.

Nice feeling to be able to Disarm just about anything. Spike Stones isn't awful, but Burning Entangle and Tar Pit are better. Fifth level Druid spell Air Walk, Communal (like Feather Step but works for all Ground effects) ties it all together.

Tar Pool does nice consistent damage, slows down foes, and makes them skip turns cleaning Tar. Long Arm letting DD attack across the trap.

Here you can see the Ninja Extra Attack Ki Power used to good effect. If you're in an advantageous position, press it. Warpriest with infinite rerolls, DD leaning too hard on Mirror Image, need to shore up those defenses now that we've moved up to Hard.

CotW Vital Strike automatically gives you Improved and Greater as you hit 11 and 16 BAB, which Battle Host does at lvl 11 and 16 with Trappings of the Warrior Panoply. Vital Strike works well with Feint or just on any turn where you had to move, which she does often to set up Flanking.

Arrowsong Strike now reaching full potential with three Scorching Rays and Maximize Rod.

Oh yeah forgot about Weapon Crit doubling spell damage. Probably the whole point of the ability. Feeling retarded. Definitely going xbow and improved crit next time.

 

[Mangoose]

Have you met my friends Mirror and Image?

Heh.

I just realized a huge benefit of Mirror Image - if they miss the first strike, their next strike is iterative, and so are the next. Enjoy full attacking. (Thus, you want to Dispel. Or just shoot Magic Missile lol)

Oh yeah forgot about Weapon Crit doubling spell damage. Probably the whole point of the ability. Feeling retarded. Definitely going xbow and improved crit next time.

FFS. It's almost convention that larger crit range is better than anything else haha.

Note that while the spell will carry over the crit range, it won't carry over the multiplier. So it's always x2.

 

[Mangoose]

Oh forget it, like arguing with a brick wall!

Well, yes, because questions like these have been asked since the beginning of time, and the custom is that the publisher releases Errata or otherwise answers the question and puts it in a FAQ somewhere.

Tabletop RPGs are still games with structures and mechanics that don't even exist here. So when I say "hit" or "miss" I'm talking about specific terminology defined by Paizo.

Of course, at the end that's still up to interpretation by your DM. The "brick wall" is the intended meaning - and it'd matter with Pathfinder Society - but as with any PNP game, you can house rule things how you want.

But if you really want to think about it: What is a 1d4 chance of hitting you? That's a 25% chance that they hit you, 75% chance that they hit a mirror image. What happens if they hit a Mirror Image? The same thing as missing you, and with Snake Fang they open themselves up for a counterattack by triggering an attack of opportunity.

Edit: In other words, it's a second layer of armor they have to make a roll on.

Attack guy with Mirror Image:
Roll d20 to hit.
Successful? Then
Roll 1d4-1d8 to actually hit me.

 

[Desiderius]

Level twelve is probably the most important level in the game since it's divisible by 2, 3, 4, and 6 and pretty much all the scaling abilities use those numbers as denominators. Here's Battle Host:

Spoiler

Bonus from Transmutation and Abjuration Resonant (passive) abilities tick up. So does Barkskin, Shield of Faith, Magic Weapon, Greater, etc...

Bardic Masterpieces are kind of weird, but Clamor of the Heavens https://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/co...pieces/clamor-of-the-heavens-percussion-sing/ absolutely owns vs Evil and especially Undead. Holic's version costs 3 rounds of performance to start instead of a fifth level spell.

You also get a Spell at fourth level that lets you keep up two songs at once. https://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/v/virtuoso-performance

Familiars can use one Magic Device per round as a Free Action but have to pass a UMD check on everything. Ninja is a CHR-based Rogue/Monk so UMD is no problem, and Advanced Talents unlocks a Familiar. The nice thing about spells like Dictum is that your party is always exempt unless you've bumped your caster level higher than your character level, which Ninja has no reason to do.

Also helps shore up Will Saves, which can be a problem for Rogues

Usually about 42 AC and Mirror Image back up is enough to survive most threats. Will be mid 50s by endgame.

This is the Warpriest with Point-Blank Master and Snap Shot combined with Throwing Axe tanking/harassing a ranged foe. Going to have to pick up Deadly Aim and Divine Power soon to boost that damage.

Found a secret room full of these dangerous Alpha Worgs. Warpriest with the AoE Blind Bomb. https://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/b/burst-of-radiance/

Scaled Fist really gives you a lot of staying power as a base for Dragon Disciple. Here Evasion.

Of course the offense is what you're here for. Notice how the Dragon Bite does significantly more damage. You'll see more of that coming up. Took a detour to get to the lvl 6 Monk Bonus Feat for Dragon Ferocity before returning to Disciple levels for Dragon Form at lvl 14.

Took her out for a spin unbuffed RT. This is going to be fun.

 

[Nikanuur]

Good day to you fellow explorers. I've purloined the game as of late, no small thanks to your well-acquainted palavers. Wouldst thou now kindly recommend some of the must-have mods? I reckon honored sir Desiderius has mentioned some class-expansions, alas, my memory is failing me in that matter.

 

[Desiderius]

Play vanilla until you've mastered the basic game to your satisfaction.

 

[Nikanuur]

Play vanilla until you've mastered the basic game to your satisfaction.

I am fairly versed in D&D 3.5 and for example minmaxing in the other RPG that had the same issues as Pathfinder initally, and had the similar 1:1 PnP to Computer RPG rules transfer. If you remember Temple of Elemental Evil... So if there are any mods expanding / improving the ruleset or general playability of the Pathfinder, please count me in and advise.

But if you really think vanilla is the best now, ok I take your advice to heart.

 

[Delterius]

just play vanilla

 

[Desiderius]

Play vanilla until you've mastered the basic game to your satisfaction.

I am fairly versed in D&D 3.5 and for example minmaxing in the other RPG that had the same issues as Pathfinder initally, and had the similar 1:1 PnP to Computer RPG rules transfer. If you remember Temple of Elemental Evil... So if there are any mods expanding / improving the ruleset or general playability of the Pathfinder, please count me in and advise.

But if you really think vanilla is the best now, ok I take your advice to heart.

Ptathfinder is designed to shore up the shortcomings of 3.5. The more 3.5 you try to bring with you the more it can lead you astray. It is important to keep an open mind toward new information.

 

[Nikanuur]

Play vanilla until you've mastered the basic game to your satisfaction.

I am fairly versed in D&D 3.5 and for example minmaxing in the other RPG that had the same issues as Pathfinder initally, and had the similar 1:1 PnP to Computer RPG rules transfer. If you remember Temple of Elemental Evil... So if there are any mods expanding / improving the ruleset or general playability of the Pathfinder, please count me in and advise.

But if you really think vanilla is the best now, ok I take your advice to heart.

Ptathfinder is designed to shore up the shortcomings of 3.5. The more 3.5 you try to bring with you the more it can lead you astray. It is important to keep an open mind toward new information.

I've chosen the Kinetic as the PC. I'm starting to think I've chosen the least possible understoodable character for me D:

 

[cloudropis]

Good day to you fellow explorers. I've purloined the game as of late, no small thanks to your well-acquainted palavers. Wouldst thou now kindly recommend some of the must-have mods? I reckon honored sir Desiderius has mentioned some class-expansions, alas, my memory is failing me in that matter.

Cleaner and No History are a must have unless you don't mind having a gigs worth of saves and have an SSD to overpower the game getting slower the more you progress. Fast Travel to not fall asleep during exploration (unlike what the name suggests, it's just an animation speed modifier), Bag of Cheats/Cheat Menu to have basically access to dev console for testing and fucking around plus QoL like take 10 if you feel like, and to manually fix the odd quest bug.
These are what I'm playing with and they are tremendously useful, refrain from using the CotW suite as it snowballs into an extended universe of mod dependencies and you can't remove them without borking your saves - unless you feel like you really NEED those new options.

 

[Desiderius]

None of that is necessary if you’re playing decently and not keeping hundreds of saves. And having access to a console is akin to smoking crack while playing. Play the devs’ game, not some ad hoc abortion.

 

[cloudropis]

No reason not to have them either outside of some weirdass anti-mod authorial intent stance, or conflating save management and ANIMATION speed with skill.
No idea if you do, but if I had a nickel for every stupid fucking "going afk as your PCs slowly trudge from one end of the map to the next is soul, kino and based you dumb ADHD riddled zoomer" post I could almost buy cigarettes

 

[cloudropis]

No reason not to have them either outside of some weirdass anti-mod authorial intent stance, or conflating save management and ANIMATION speed with skill.
No idea if you do, but if I had a nickel for every stupid fucking "going afk as your PCs slowly trudge from one end of the map to the next is soul, kino and based you dumb ADHD riddled zoomer" post I could almost buy cigarettes

I gave you the reason you degenerate fucktard. He asked my advice, not yours. There’s a reason for that.

lmao he literally didn't, cope harder. Looks like I had you all figured out in the first post