Pathfinder Pathfinder: Kingmaker - Enhanced Plus Edition - now with turn-based combat

[Artyoan]

'RTWP vs TB' forum discussion is itself both a form of RTWP and TB combat. Carry on.

 

[InD_ImaginE]

I was just saying it's dumb to expect the TB mode to NOT work. That's a separate logical statement.

No, the TB mode might work on a technical level but the point raised by Lann (and me several pages back) is that it sucked on a practical level.

Every single issue that exists in RtwP, noticeably the poor AI is exacerbated multiple folds in TB. The fact that the AI can't use 5 feet movement and that the AI can't delay turns make sit worse as those options are available for players.

It's like playing tabletop where your GM is a complete submissive with sub 80 IQ.

The real-time simulation of RtwP, of course, doesn't eliminate the issue of bad AI but it changes the dynamic enough that the game becomes enjoyable on a practical level.

I would argue that with good AI the game might even be more enjoyable still on RtwP but that is beside the point.

 

[Mangoose]

I was just saying it's dumb to expect the TB mode to NOT work. That's a separate logical statement.

No, the TB mode might work on a technical level but the point raised by Lann (and me several pages back) is that it sucked on a practical level.

Every single issue that exists in RtwP, noticeably the poor AI is exacerbated multiple folds in TB. The fact that the AI can't use 5 feet movement and that the AI can't delay turns make sit worse as those options are available for players.

It's like playing tabletop where your GM is a complete submissive with sub 80 IQ.

The real-time simulation of RtwP, of course, doesn't eliminate the issue of bad AI but it changes the dynamic enough that the game becomes enjoyable on a practical level.

I would argue that with good AI the game might even be more enjoyable still on RtwP but that is beside the point.

You're missing the point where I said: It still works. And it should. It's not being panned in reviews. It works. I have spent many hours in TB mode. I would say, on a practical level, that works.

It's enjoyable.

So is RTWP.

Who said either of them sucked?

You are making up an argument that didn't exist.

Edit: No, it just looks cooler in RTWP like KOTOR does as opposed to if it had been TB. I tripped out watching sabers, yeah. Graphics whoredom will getcha.

 

[Rean]

only on tabletop can you capture the pure essence of a 'role-playing game'.

Will I be able to bring my cleaver to the session and chop off the DM's fingers if I don't like the rolls?

Oh boy. When I see this "tabletop means the GM vs the players" propaganda, I instantly know I'm dealing with someone whose only understanding of tabletop comes from 'stories he heard from a friend of a friend whose second cousin claimed he played tabletop RPGs' .
The GM does not roll for you, you roll for yourself, that's the whole point. And a confident GM will even let you roll for things like environmental damage yourself so you can experience the full weight of the repercussions of your stupid actions. When it comes to numbers, there is unlimited times more agency than in a CRPG because you're not limited by algorithms and preprogrammed narratives- when you roll, it's just you, the dice and gravity.

You would probably lose a set and a half of your own fingers before you ever got to the GM's.

 

[Rean]

I'm starting to smell the stench of lies, inexperience and modern cultural brainwash that should never exist on a forum about ROLE PLAYING GAMES: let's make this undeniable fact extremely clear in the heads of everyone, including those living in dreamland and the 'full-time videogamers'. Any CRPG campaign (including this very one) converted to tabletop would completely bulldoze, annihilate, demolish the minute, pathetic experience you get from playing it as a videogame. No one in their right mind who's played tabletop would ever disagree.

- Does not apply to retards who play CRPGs because they just randomly stumbled upon the genre after their Call of Duty tour and now play to show off how 'tacticool' they are.
- Does not apply to dysfunctionally introverted/autistic individuals who can't find a group to play tabletop with and thus like to make up bullshit to make themselves feel good.

 

[Pink Eye]

Ah yes. I too remember stumbling upon this genre after finishing the latest Call of Duty video game. A very unexpected thing it was. Such a sudden change in genres, including tastes - don't question it! Now I go around. Exalting the greatness of Ravenloft. Count Strahd. And Dark Sun! To all my First Person Shooter pals.

 

[Mangoose]

I've never played it tabletop

Edit: But Sawyer has. I was friends with him on FB for a bit. He likes bicycling and tabletop - according to the videos and pictures he took.

And with all that experience making games, talking about game design, POE's mechanics is not very different from other RTWP games. Sawyer had the opportunity - and the experience - to create an RTWP from ground up, allowing him to try something different than what's been done.

And then they slapped in Turn-Based onto a game (poorly) designed for RTWP. PoE/PoE2 is more relevant to my criticism than Kingmaker. Which.. I never criticized lol. I haven't played RTWP mode because... I didn't feel like it? TBH I had just finished a Baldur's Gate Trilogy run (and halfway through another) before I got this so maybe I wanted something different. Or maybe I wanted to play a TB D&D game that was not as fuckign clunky as ToEE.

Yet, despite having not played RTWP, I'm just going to guess that it is fine. IWD2 was 3rd edition RTWP, and that worked fine, so empirically I assume 3e mechanics in RTWP is fine.

In fact, the Barbarian, Sorcerer, and Monk in BG2 were taken from 3e. BG2 (or ToB) was in development at the same time as 3rd edition. So if you have a Sorcerer in your party, he probably plays fine because he played fine 21 years ago.

 

[Desiderius]

I'm starting to smell the stench of lies, inexperience and modern cultural brainwash that should never exist on a forum about ROLE PLAYING GAMES: let's make this undeniable fact extremely clear in the heads of everyone, including those living in dreamland and the 'full-time videogamers'. Any CRPG campaign (including this very one) converted to tabletop would completely bulldoze, annihilate, demolish the minute, pathetic experience you get from playing it as a videogame. No one in their right mind who's played tabletop would ever disagree.

- Does not apply to retards who play CRPGs because they just randomly stumbled upon the genre after their Call of Duty tour and now play to show off how 'tacticool' they are.
- Does not apply to dysfunctionally introverted/autistic individuals who can't find a group to play tabletop with and thus like to make up bullshit to make themselves feel good.

Remarkably well-chosen avatar, Karen. If you want to play tabletop I suggest using your table, not our computer.

 

[LannTheStupid]

I've never played it tabletop

I've never played any tabletop. Nor will I, either.

 

[Mangoose]

I've never played it tabletop

I've never played any tabletop. Nor will I, either.

Yeah.

Well I wouldn't mind playing Call/Trail of Cthulhu: https://1d4chan.org/wiki/Old_Man_Henderson

 

[Mangoose]

- Does not apply to dysfunctionally introverted/autistic individuals who has too much social anxiety find a group to play tabletop with and thus like to make up bullshit to make themselves feel good.

ftfy

lulz

Nah, I'm autistic enough that I find arguments about this game stupid lol. My point was that everything works as expected, so it should not be surprising that everything works as expected. You can't expect a surprise. In fact, a surprise would imply a failure of expectations.

I am surprised they either didn't have to change the interface much - or they did a good job modifying it, I dunno, I didn't play until TB came out. This does matter, from personal experience, as the radial wheel in ToEE was terrible. Clunky and way too easy to misclick (granted, camera rotation from Bag o Tricks really assists in not clicking the wrong shit). On the other hand, the interface of Knights of the Chalice was very smooth, and I think it did apply most of 3e mechanics. Sometimes you get too absorbed into making an interface look good and prioritize that over an interface that conveys info efficiently. As well as having your abilities easy to access. Not simplify the mechanics, just simplify access to them. Technically doesn't have to be user-intuitive if it's quick to learn.

KoTC was good bc things were hotkeyed AND you can see the hotkeys without having to refer to another menu.

Spoiler

On the other hand, Temple of Elemental Evil ... Doesn't even have a hotkey for 5 ft moves. Instead it probably has one of the hotkeys (LALT?) open a menu where you then select 5 ft move. Or maybe there was no hotkey, and had to run through the radial menu and then two submenus.

Spoiler

In fact in Kingmaker, even without a hotkey, you have a 5-foot-move button right there to toggle. Also the feedback is right there so you know you did or didn't misclick.

 

[Rean]

Remarkably well-chosen avatar, Karen. If you want to play tabletop I suggest using your table, not our computer.

I've never played any tabletop. Nor will I, either.

Are you triggered by someone finally being honest with you? Good. This reached the exact people it was meant to reach. Two of the individuals who frequent this thread constantly that the facts apply the most to.

Let's see what we have here, watch as an adult dismantles your pathetic wishy washy dreams.

- Never played tabletop, by self-admittance. Neither one of you have addressed any of the facts and you won't be able to, because the truth is so absolute it can never be twisted.
- "I can't believe it's not butter" cult. Tabletop is RPG, CRPGs are made by fans of tabletop as a substitute for convenience and to add to the experience, never as a replacement. Irrefutable fact that you have yet to catch on to, despite every single developer making this abundantly clear since day one for decades now. I wonder why they all like tabletop so much.
- Autistic, bloating hundreds of pages using the thread as a personal blog for what buildssss give the highest DPS and getting into emo balance arguments that always end with REEEEE screeching and blocking.
- Ungrateful, thinking Holic should serve as your mod-pumping machine.

Truth hurts. It's ok. You can always roleplay as high-functioning in here at least. And show off the DPS, it's all very impressive, I assure you.

 

[ERYFKRAD]

"I can't believe it's not butter" cult

Why butter?

 

[Rean]

- Does not apply to dysfunctionally introverted/autistic individuals who has too much social anxiety find a group to play tabletop with and thus like to make up bullshit to make themselves feel good.

ftfy

lulz

Unless you're just an extremely unpleasant individual (like a few around here who would be booted out of a campaign so fast their fucking heads would spin- that's what they're afraid of), there's bound to be a group that would be a good fit for you. Find a group. Make friends, pissing off both the autists and Fauci at the same time.

 

[Pink Eye]

>KoTC was good bc things were hotkeyed AND you can see the hotkeys without having to refer to another menu.
Yeah. Knights of the Chalice set the gold standard - so did Dark Sun. I've become somewhat spoiled by how its gameplay can be controlled by hotkeys.

 

[Desiderius]

unpleasant

Again, don't know who you think you're fooling but the avatar you chose is about as pleasant as a suppurating MTF vag. As for your laughable projections, I was rolling d8s when you were still an uncomprehending leer in a lesser gnoll's walleye.

The idea that I'm obsessed with DPS... just too perfect.

When they send the ankelbiters they're not sending their best. You want an ignore, you got it sweetheart.

 

[Efe]

Ungrateful, thinking Holic should serve as your mod-pumping machine

wtf this right here mean?
nobody here is asking shit from holic

 

[Pink Eye]

Desiderius has been around the block, and knows what he's talking about, most times. I hold great respect towards him. The contention of which is currently being discussed. Is the issue that P&P players are wrong on certain mechanics when it comes to the video game adaptation of Kingmaker. That whole,"Trust no one" shtick isn't him pounding his chest. Or saying you don't know what you're talking about. it's to portray that you should test things. For they might be different in game. So do forgive us for not immediately taking every P&P player's word on Pathfinder: Kingmaker. Some of us have thousands of hours from playing the game, and tend to take issue with people being wrong on the inner workings of the video game. Hence the hostility some of players here have with that group.

>Autistic, bloating hundreds of pages using the thread as a personal blog for what buildssss give the highest DPS and getting into emo balance arguments that always end with REEEEE screeching and blocking.
Also, sweet heart. What do we think we did in Neverwinter Nights 2 before Kingmaker was a thing? Or hell, what do you think people did in Baldur's Gate, Dark Sun, Knights of the Chalice, Age of Decadence, Icewinde Dale, etc; or even the Underrail threads? Discussing builds. Perfecting them. Trying out the harder difficulties to challenge your builds - is the fun of it. If that comes off as 'Reeee' screeching; then I think you're in the wrong genre.

 

[Nortar]

Truth hurts. It's ok.

While I don't disagree with what you're saying (the thread does look like a fucking personal blog),
I don't see the point of preaching about differences between C- and P&P RPGs here.
On this particular subforum it's like trying to describe the elephant to the three proverbial blindmen who have already formed their opinion.
Or like pissing against the wind.

 

[Desiderius]

Ungrateful, thinking Holic should serve as your mod-pumping machine

wtf this right here mean?
nobody here is asking shit from holic

Only thing I was asking Holic was him not to ban me. He chose otherwise, so I’m playing Wiz8 (slightly) modded now.

 

[Desiderius]

Truth hurts. It's ok.

While I don't disagree with what you're saying (the thread does look like a fucking personal blog),
I don't see the point of preaching about differences between C- and P&P RPGs here.
On this particular subforum it's like trying to describe the elephant to the three proverbial blindmen who have already formed their opinion.
Or like pissing against the wind.

No, it’s not like pissing in the wind if you have a conversation. We’ve had plenty of those, including on this subject. That’s not what she was doing, nor is it what you’re doing. This isn’t a drive by clueless condescension thread.

Other people are free to contribute and have. Most are just into other stuff now. As am I, though I enjoy discussing P:K because it’s a favorite.

 

[Efe]

do you prefer real-time blobbers like grimrock or turn-based like wizardry?

 

[Pink Eye]

Yo. Try Ravenloft: Strahd's Possesssion and Stone Prophet Desiderius They're good games. Good music. Just listen to this amazing piece from Strahd's Possession:

Spoiler

Good dungeons. With lots of puzzles. Memorable villains. Count Strahd. Anhktepot. Are good freaking villains. Gameplay is kind of ass in the Ravenloft games though. I think I hurt my hand from all of the clicking I had to do in both games. Oh yeah, if you're looking for something modern, there's the upcoming Colony Ship: A Post-Earth Role Playing Game from the legends that made Age of Decadence if that may interest you. Highly recommend that one. Love it a bunch. There's also Knights of the Chalice 2. But that ain't out for purchase, yet.

 

[Desiderius]

do you prefer real-time blobbers like grimrock or turn-based like wizardry?

Wiz is almost exactly RTwP - give your squad directions at beginning of round then watch everything play out in more or less unpredictable order until the end of round pause. The fun is getting from the more to the less.

My twitch skillz sadly are no longer up to RTwithoutP and was never a huge fan tho I lost my second real job in part to playing too much EotBII and underperformed at another when DiabloII came out.

I’ve always been playing something, including tabletop. My boys just dug up my JPA National Championship trophy from ‘86.

Thought I’d throw in a little sumpin’, sumpin’ for our personal blog fans who just showed up.

 

[LannTheStupid]

We are sorely missing InEffect here.