Pathfinder Pathfinder: Kingmaker - Enhanced Plus Edition - now with turn-based combat

[Average Manatee]

It's just a slow though, unless you are kiting with ranged weapons it doesn't help much. And kiting with ranged weapons is basically an exploit in infinity engine games.

It does have some tricks you can do with it though. Works on neutral NPCs without turning them hostile so you can abuse it in BG vs. friendly dragons you are about to kill.

 

[coldcrow]

It's one more spell to set up a kill zone with a 6*sorcerer party.

 

[Haplo]

I guess I don't care that much, as I assume that you have your companions with you for most combat, so I should probably just be the bard as it seems like these games always have parts where you need to pass persuasion skill checks all by yourself.

In Wrath there are a lot of ways to get those bonuses but in P:K it's hard to pass up the song + Good Hope.

There are many ways in Kingmaker also. Don't forget Tristan's Touch of Good!

 

[Haplo]

Wild Gaze is trivially beaten by Freedom of Movement, Echolocation, a number of other buffs I can't recall off the top of my head, or just boosting your saves through normally available means (not that this excuses the fact that Wild Gaze is an absurdly broken ability that shouldn't be in the game). According to the wiki the Rogues have an AB of +20/15/10, so as long as you aren't paralyzed they are pretty trivially defeated by simply having an AC above 45 or so.

Don't forget Blind Fight. That is the number 1 solution to Gaze attacks. Also works against the (rare) medusas. Boosting saves isn't a reliable solution, though. You're bound to roll a 1 eventually. Echolocation I remember not working - was it fixed at some point?
Wild Hunt Gaze would be okay, if it were limited to 1 test per enemy type per 24hrs, like in tabletop...

As for the Ghastly Guardians, not sure what's going there - there are either so many of them that they roll 20s or maybe as uncorporeal enemies they target touch AC... but in practice their accuracy isn't that bad. And it tends to improve, as they have the annoying Dispelling Strikes.

In any case I’d find things randomly flat-footed in my combat logs anyway. Never could tell if it was just from zerging or flanking or what.

Flanking should just be flanking, unless you were using spells that blind/paralyze/etc which are another way to inflict flatfooted.

Perhaps you're winning Initiative? Enemies without Uncanny Dodge are always flat-footed before they get to act.

 

[Desiderius]

No just getting to the age where the memory gets faulty. It sux here (mostly) too.

I started out wanting it a lot because I was fighting underleveled and not doing much damage so getting owned. Once that changed I wanted Grease less though it still has its uses.

Seriously once you figure out how to consistently generate good ranged damage (and why you want to) Grease gets a lot worse even if you’ve got the friendly fire under control.

 

[Desiderius]

I guess I don't care that much, as I assume that you have your companions with you for most combat, so I should probably just be the bard as it seems like these games always have parts where you need to pass persuasion skill checks all by yourself.

In Wrath there are a lot of ways to get those bonuses but in P:K it's hard to pass up the song + Good Hope.

There are many ways in Kingmaker also. Don't forget Tristan's Touch of Good!

Oh for sure - missing it on Holic’s Tristian take - but speaking more about combat bonuses there.

 

[Desiderius]

Looks like once you get the quest to save Bart you want to get Troll Trouble over with to free up your General to Rank Up. Otherwise it's tied up with the Problem Card for controlling the Trolls which are long duration and relatively low reward. Amazing all the strategic intricacies to the KM that even I never got a feel for. There's a random encounter that sends you to meet Bart after Troll Trouble starts that fails if you go early so I think I want to:

(1) Build Capital buildings (Windmill, Granary, Brewery)

(2) Get Kanerah, unlock Sweet Teeth, open Taldan Mine in Sorrowflow, get Military and Community resources along the way, do opening Lonely Barrow encounter (if you can handle whole thing it's big money), get Diamond from Arbor Rock

(3) By the time you get back should have all Advisors at work for Outskirts claim

(4) Build Outskirts bldgs (also Windmill et al - build on river since few adjacencies and won't be promoting to Town), leave slot for Bokken shop

(4b) Get the Loan after paying for these bldgs (will finance claim for Kamelands and North Narl)

(5a) Go to Oleg's when Jae's/Val's quests trigger, unlock Bokken and resources, hit Depths on way back for Haste wand

(5b) Head west when Troll Trouble starts, get encounter to find Bart the first time, pick up Jub and Ekun, do quests on their maps, Bandit Camp, etc on way there/back

(6) Go to Swamp after getting find the kid quest, check Ekun's leads while there

(7) Head to Trobold at lvl 8 after saving Bart from rampaging Trolls (second Bart visit).

Swamp, Barrow, Depths, and Bridge can give decent experience if you can handle them before then.

After Trobold claim South Narl, North Narl, and Kamelands ASAP with loan money helping. Rank up Community and Loyalty as needed. Get Artisans started and do their quests ASAP (companion quests can be done along the way as can exploring). Sweet Teeth will be giving you quest items ahead of time.

Going to restart now that I know Holic's companions and what I need for MC better.

 

[cruel]

Finished Troll Trouble, earlier than expected. Fun fight with Hargulka, I laughed hard when regeneration kicked in while I was talking / debating whether to kill him. Ekun seems OP for the time when you get him, especially after getting this 2K6 + 2K6 acid bow, combined with his ranger bonuses against trolls, very good asset. Again, I actually enjoy the game when it lets me play it / explore dungeons, I get this comfy 'BG2 feeling'.

Running main sorc, Amiri, Valerie, Harrim, Ekun, Linzi - and probably will stay this way. Tried to put Jubilost in and Harrim at the front, but prefer the previous way for some reason. Only if Valerie wasn't the most boring companion in the world... I actually start to like Harrim, funny guy.

Should I assume I need to rotate party members every now and then to get their quests completed?

 

[Yosharian]

No, quests trigger regardless of who you bring, but you need to bring them to quest areas when told to

 

[Haplo]

Harrim is cool, but try Tristan eventually. His domain powers are often overlooked, while Touch of Good can be simply OP (and along with Linzi's buffs will let you auto-pass all skillchecks).

 

[Average Manatee]

There's a few non-obvious party member opportunities for XP that aren't specifically linked to their quests. Taking Ekun and Jubi to the troll fortress IIRC is one of them. But anything relating to their quests you'll get a big notification that you need them with you before you go to the quest location.

 

[Desiderius]

Why would you put Jub in the front lol?

Try him with Tanglefoot Bombs in Trobold. Infused buffs pretty hard to replace. Amiri with Trollcleaver with Cleave, Harrim for tanking/Touch of Chaos, Linzi for buffing/Fascinate, Jub for touch/debuff Bombs and Infused Personal debuffs (and Trickery), Ekun/Okbo for damage.

Hard line-up to beat there.

Harrim is ideal vs Trolls and Giants but no so great in Womb where Tristan can nuke and you can take them both to Varnhold.

 

[cruel]

Oh no, only Harrim went to the front lines to replace Val, Jubilost in the back of course. Thanks for the tips, I will give a chance to Tristan at some point. Didn't like his 'faith is my only armor' thing, but definitely didn't look closely at him. I can see some sense in having both him and my sorc to nuke from afar.

Sent from my KB2005 using Tapatalk

 

[Sykar]

Grease is absolutely one of the best spells for the early game, even working long into the midgame. Not getting hit by it yourself is trivial in TB and pretty easy in RT and enemies basically need to save successfully twice in a row to be able to get up and attack you properly (vs. spells like Glitterdust where the target gets to save each round and the effect ends permanently when they make their first save). Even against enemies with fairly high reflex saves it will do good work on groups. Making yourself immune to the effects is also easy by the midgame.

Sleep is superior especially if you have access to Coup de Grace.

 

[Average Manatee]

Sleep is superior especially if you have access to Coup de Grace.

Have you actually tried it? Because the 4 HD cap should make it basically useless past the tutorial. Vs. level 2 enemies you can only apply your DC check to two of them and past level 4 it just does nothing. Boggards in Tranquil River Bend are all over level 4 for example. I say "should" because there's probably a 50/50 chance someone will pop in and point out that actually the 4 HD cap isn't implemented.

 

[Sykar]

And from level 3 onward you have vastly superior CC to Grease already. Glitterdust, Web and Pit being the 3 most note worthy ones. Also still works in most act 1 main story areas until you go to the Staglord's fortress.

 

[Average Manatee]

And from level 3 onward you have vastly superior CC to Grease already. Glitterdust, Web and Pit being the 3 most note worthy ones. Also still works in most act 1 main story areas until you go to the Staglord's fortress.

Grease: Target has to save every round, if the succeed they still have to get up and take AoOs and can't take a full round action. Preventing full round actions for powerful melee characters gets huge the further you get in the game, and enemies basically have to save twice in a row to be able to get a full round action attacking you.
Glitterdust: Blindness gives 50% miss chance, -4 dex and str. Good, but not nearly as good as taking them out of the fight completely. Powerful enemies that would have huge AB and deal lots of damage per hit are still likely to fuck you up if they get past that miss chance. Furthermore the worst part is that it has a DC check every round and ends permanently on the first save the enemy makes. Main reason it's good though is that it targets Will saves which basically makes it a whole other class of debuff spell compared to Grease.
Web: Grapple condition still allows the enemy to attack at -2 even if they can't move. Only advantage is that the terrain is still difficult (=50% movement speed) even if they save.
Pit: Can't attack them while they are in it.

No way I'd consider any of these spells "vastly superior" to Grease. If anything Grease is vastly superior to them in the general combat environment. And in any case you should still be using all your level 1 slots at level 3 or 4. Are you going to rest 10 times in Tranquil River Bend fighting those Boggards with Web?

 

[Haplo]

And from level 3 onward you have vastly superior CC to Grease already. Glitterdust, Web and Pit being the 3 most note worthy ones. Also still works in most act 1 main story areas until you go to the Staglord's fortress.

Grease: Target has to save every round, if the succeed they still have to get up and take AoOs and can't take a full round action. Preventing full round actions for powerful melee characters gets huge the further you get in the game, and enemies basically have to save twice in a row to be able to get a full round action attacking you.
Glitterdust: Blindness gives 50% miss chance, -4 dex and str. Good, but not nearly as good as taking them out of the fight completely. Powerful enemies that would have huge AB and deal lots of damage per hit are still likely to fuck you up if they get past that miss chance. Furthermore the worst part is that it has a DC check every round and ends permanently on the first save the enemy makes. Main reason it's good though is that it targets Will saves which basically makes it a whole other class of debuff spell compared to Grease.
Web: Grapple condition still allows the enemy to attack at -2 even if they can't move. Only advantage is that the terrain is still difficult (=50% movement speed) even if they save.
Pit: Can't attack them while they are in it.

No way I'd consider any of these spells "vastly superior" to Grease. If anything Grease is vastly superior to them in the general combat environment. And in any case you should still be using all your level 1 slots at level 3 or 4. Are you going to rest 10 times in Tranquil River Bend fighting those Boggards with Web?

I mostly agree. One thing you're missing is that the Blind condition has significantly more impact. Can't attack or cast spells at distant targets. Be flat-footed = dead easy to hit, eat sneak attacks even without flanking (and even with Uncanny Dodge, I think).

 

[Average Manatee]

I mostly agree. One thing you're missing is that the Blind condition has significantly more impact. Can't attack or cast spells at distant targets. Be flat-footed = dead easy to hit, eat sneak attacks even without flanking (and even with Uncanny Dodge, I think).

Wasn't going to go over all the effects of blind, especially since Grease also gives +4 to hit on prone enemies which is fairly comparable, but you're right.

 

[Desiderius]

-4 to ranged. Once you get Rapid Shot Grease is obsolete. I’ve never cast Sleep in P:K but it’s good in Wrath tavern fight so probably pretty good in ch 1.

 

[Desiderius]

Hypnotism is 2d4 so shld br Empowerable.

 

[Desiderius]

And from level 3 onward you have vastly superior CC to Grease already. Glitterdust, Web and Pit being the 3 most note worthy ones. Also still works in most act 1 main story areas until you go to the Staglord's fortress.

Grease: Target has to save every round, if the succeed they still have to get up and take AoOs and can't take a full round action. Preventing full round actions for powerful melee characters gets huge the further you get in the game, and enemies basically have to save twice in a row to be able to get a full round action attacking you.
Glitterdust: Blindness gives 50% miss chance, -4 dex and str. Good, but not nearly as good as taking them out of the fight completely. Powerful enemies that would have huge AB and deal lots of damage per hit are still likely to fuck you up if they get past that miss chance. Furthermore the worst part is that it has a DC check every round and ends permanently on the first save the enemy makes. Main reason it's good though is that it targets Will saves which basically makes it a whole other class of debuff spell compared to Grease.
Web: Grapple condition still allows the enemy to attack at -2 even if they can't move. Only advantage is that the terrain is still difficult (=50% movement speed) even if they save.
Pit: Can't attack them while they are in it.

No way I'd consider any of these spells "vastly superior" to Grease. If anything Grease is vastly superior to them in the general combat environment. And in any case you should still be using all your level 1 slots at level 3 or 4. Are you going to rest 10 times in Tranquil River Bend fighting those Boggards with Web?

It’s not huge if you’re taking them down before they can attack and/or they’re attacking summons and/or you have decent AC.

You’re making the game too hard by restricting yourself to first level spells. You’re like the guy complaining that his Magic Missiles just weren’t doing enough damage in Armag’s Tomb.

 

[Average Manatee]

-4 to ranged. Once you get Rapid Shot Grease is obsolete. I’ve never cast Sleep in P:K but it’s good in Wrath tavern fight so probably pretty good in ch 1.

So don't be a standoff baby and switch to melee weapons like a real man.

You’re making the game too hard by restricting yourself to first level spells. You’re like the guy complaining that his Magic Missiles just weren’t doing enough damage in Armag’s Tomb.

No one is complaining about grease here but you. You can literally heighten grease and use it all game to good effect against enemies who have reflex as one of their weak saving throws.

 

[Correct_Carlo]

Yeah, so Old Stump pissed me off. I thought, "If I only clear all the monsters, it will let me camp" so I pushed myself to clear all the monsters, rather than restarting and managing my spells better, and the last 2 mobs were harrowing, I barely cleared them and was proud of myself for succeeding.

But, nope. No camping. Got to the boss with zero spells, so now I get to do all that shit again. Good thing I had a save. I can't imagine anyone would make it this far in the DLC without realizing that you have to save constantly, but if you didn't, you could seriously fuck yourself on this level, as once you enter the boss cave, it saves over your auto-save.

Honestly, I have a serious love/hate relationship with this game. I'm like 200 hours in now, and I swear that about 50 hours of that is loading screens, 25 is buffing pre-battle, and a good 25 was spent trying different builds in chapters 1 and 2.

I really kind of hate Varnhold DLC. It's a fun challenge and nice opportunity to try out completely different builds, but you are expected to play it just when your party finally seems like it's powerful, so you get to restart with a shitty level 5 party, which is just under the line where you feel powerful in this game. I just want to get it over with and go back to the main game, but nope. I have to redo all of Old Stump now. At least I know everything that will happen now, so know exactly which spells to take and buy from the vendor.

 

[Mr. Magniloquent]

I recall using grease up through Vordekai's Tomb. Once I cleared that chapter, I can't recall really using it anymore. I spammed the hell out of the Kineticist Grease when doing The Depths early. Kingmaker has bloated stats/saves, so the repeat saves is very valuable. Troll Trouble, Bloom, and Varnhold are rife with mighty but reflex poor monsters. Grease stays relevant for a long time.