KickStarter Pathfinder: Kingmaker Pre-DLC Thread [GO TO NEW THREAD]

[rashiakas]

Maybe play the game and stop talking bullshit cael.

 

[Cael]

2. Charge is in fact quite broken. In the book version it specifically does not allow you to charge through occupied squares, that is a Bull Rush. In the game's version you can go right through enemies to their back line. Normally that would require several combat manuever checks and possibly special feats or PrC abilities. The delay was likely introduced to try to balance this somewhat.

Bullrush is only if you want to push the guy backwards.

The game doesn't allow you to move through an occupied square except for a couple of instances (a very high Tumble check and, IIRC a special feat in the DMG2).

Even if they allowed it, that charge should trigger AoOs out the wazoo. Everyone and their mothers in the front line should be able to get one on the charger. That usually results in a dead charger long before he gets to the back line.

 

[jf8350143]

What the hell? Owlbear isn't that deadly. A party of 6 level 4s should be able to handle one easy. Even a party of 4 L4s should be able to handle an owlbear...

It is a very special owlbro.

Spoiler

Though, yep, not hard at all.

That is not even the Paizo standard. AC 35 is the AC of a Balor. AC 38 is Wyrm-class dragons. BAB 14 is what level 12 characters should be fielding.

That is a joke. Owlcat doesn't understand how the CR and WBL system work, and without understanding that very fundamental underpinning of the 3.5 system, there is really no hope in hell of getting good encounters.

I predict you guys will be chasing fix after patch after nerf as Owlcat try to bring under control a beast they themselves unleashed.

That's actually at least half of the "it's hard " complain is about. Owlcat gives almost every enemy tons of extra AB and AC even on lowest difficulties, and there is no way to remove them.

 

[rashiakas]

2. Charge is in fact quite broken. In the book version it specifically does not allow you to charge through occupied squares, that is a Bull Rush. In the game's version you can go right through enemies to their back line. Normally that would require several combat manuever checks and possibly special feats or PrC abilities. The delay was likely introduced to try to balance this somewhat.

Bullrush is only if you want to push the guy backwards.



The game doesn't allow you to move through an occupied square except for a couple of instances (a very high Tumble check and, IIRC a special feat in the DMG2).

Even if they allowed it, that charge should trigger AoOs out the wazoo. Everyone and their mothers in the front line should be able to get one on the charger. That usually results in a dead charger long before he gets to the back line.

Again you talk bullshit, you dont know shit about pathfinder rules obviously, so stop pretending you do. A simple overrun maneuver is enough to move trough an enemy that isnt 2 size categories larger than you.

 

[Cael]

That is not even the Paizo standard. AC 35 is the AC of a Balor. AC 38 is Wyrm-class dragons. BAB 14 is what level 12 characters should be fielding.

The AC is the PC, so I guess Valerie boosted with magic. Pretty normal. However, BAB 14 isn't level 12 characters, but level 14 warrior-class characters (like Fighters).

What they should be facing, not what they have. You typically get +2 levels if you are facing a "boss" monster. At least, that would be how I would design an encounter. A few mooks of lesser levels and the boss being 2 levels or so higher than the party.

The thing is, it should not be that easy to get to AC 38 even as a PC. What level are you expected to fight the owlbear at? Level 4 from the question? At level 4, a guy shouldn't be getting much more than +1 equipment.

That it the problem with people muck around with the game fundamentals. They add cool lewt and then have to add stronger monsters to compensate, and then all turns to shit.

 

[Shadenuat]

because stronger monsters is a such a bad thing.

 

[Cael]

That's actually at least half of the "it's hard " complain is about. Owlcat gives almost every enemy tons of extra AB and AC even on lowest difficulties, and there is no way to remove them.

Those complaints are justified as the game is not following the PnP in terms of how the mechanics interact. There are far better ways to make a difficult encounter in the 3.5 model. Adding tons of AB and AC is just a lazy way of doing it, and very dangerous as the effects on the balance of the game can go pear shaped extremely quickly with a change of even 2 or 3 either way.

 

[Cael]

because stronger monsters is a such a bad thing.

Yes, it is in the 3.5 system. It very much is.

Make a stronger monster and you have to increase its CR, which means you have to change the encounter level. Then, we have the flow on effects like XP gain and things like how many such encounters are you going to throw at the party before allowing them to rest.

Remember that the whole game is designed and balanced around the idea that a party of 4 can fight 4 encounters of an equal encounter level before resting. Mess with the encounter level, and you are messing with the entire system. You better be sure that you know what you are doing before playing with it.

Adding a bunch of AC and AB and then throwing items at the party? That does not fill me with confidence as to the understanding of the devs.

 

[Shadenuat]

did you even play dis game

 

[Cael]

did you even play dis game

The cry of a guy who has no argument to make and try to hide behind smoke and mirrors.

I understand the system that Paizo based their game on. I know what happens when you play with giving creatures extra abilities without any concern for the CR system. I also know what happens when you fuck the WBL table in the eye. As both a player and a DM for over 20 years, I have seen it happen on both sides of the screen, and trust me, here there is no DM to tell you, "Look, I think I fucked this up. Can we please delete those +4 weapons of doom that your level 7 character shouldn't be having? We'll just say that they don't work outside this valley, OK?"

 

[Ent]

Does the main character need to have points in persuasion or can I leave that up to the halfling sidekick?

 

[panda]

What the hell? Owlbear isn't that deadly. A party of 6 level 4s should be able to handle one easy. Even a party of 4 L4s should be able to handle an owlbear...

It is a very special owlbro.

Spoiler

Though, yep, not hard at all.

That is not even the Paizo standard. AC 35 is the AC of a Balor. AC 38 is Wyrm-class dragons. BAB 14 is what level 12 characters should be fielding.

That is a joke. Owlcat doesn't understand how the CR and WBL system work, and without understanding that very fundamental underpinning of the 3.5 system, there is really no hope in hell of getting good encounters.

I predict you guys will be chasing fix after patch after nerf as Owlcat try to bring under control a beast they themselves unleashed.

Maybe play the game and stop talking bullshit cael.

This is fucking optional content
You can kill it with 16 trickery check or make him join you with 18 nature lore skillcheck, i just fought him for fun.
Also he would have 0 chances against certain rats

The thing is, it should not be that easy to get to AC 38 even as a PC. What level are you expected to fight the owlbear at? Level 4 from the question? At level 4, a guy shouldn't be getting much more than +1 equipment.

Shield of faith - lvl1
reduce person - lvl1
barkskin - lvl2, or special item
Valerie lvl4

But, yeah, horribly unoptimized character which totally hampers your party even on normal.

 

[Cael]

The thing is, it should not be that easy to get to AC 38 even as a PC. What level are you expected to fight the owlbear at? Level 4 from the question? At level 4, a guy shouldn't be getting much more than +1 equipment.

Shield of faith - lvl1
reduce person - lvl1
barkskin - lvl2, or special item
Valerie lvl4

But, yeah, horribly unoptimized character which totally hampers your party even on normal.

Shield of Faith at level 4 gives how many AC?
Reduce person gives how many AC?
Barkskin at level 4 gives how many AC?
Valerie at level 4 is wearing what exactly?

 

[glass blackbird]

Oh shit, maybe this is why we're not getting our keys - they burnt out their community manager

3. Eh. Tanking just isn't a thing in D&D. I don't want the game to be WoW
.

I'd agree, but they included Valerie, a character clearly designed to be (and only capable of being, due to design/stats) a tank NPC. So the fact she can't actually draw enemies is stupid; either give her a way to do that, or make her not be that kind of character!

 

[Grampy_Bone]

A simple overrun maneuver is enough to move trough an enemy that isnt 2 size categories larger than you.

Regardless, the game itself is still doing it wrong.

 

[panda]

I posted this few pages ago already, but ok

Spoiler

 

[TwinkieGorilla]

Maybe play the game and stop talking bullshit cael.

"DUMBFUCK!!!"

 

[Grampy_Bone]

Does the main character need to have points in persuasion or can I leave that up to the halfling sidekick?

So far I have seen only one skill check that forced the main character only to make it, but it allowed you to try numerous different skills. I think you can get away without having persuade on the main.

 

[Cael]

I posted this few pages ago already, but ok

Spoiler

What else is she wearing/using, because I highly suspect she blew the WBL for a 4th level character. In fact, I know she did, because I recall a +1 flaming bsword running around. That alone violates one of the rules of the WBL (that 1 item shouldn't be more expensive than 50% of the character's total wealth). Add in the 2650 required for the +1 full plate, and you've blown the WBL out of the water.

Thank you for proving my point.

 

[Shadenuat]

As both a player and a DM for over 20 years

you should join the club and write your steam review.

 

[Grampy_Bone]

Oh shit, maybe this is why we're not getting our keys - they burnt out their community manager

3. Eh. Tanking just isn't a thing in D&D. I don't want the game to be WoW
.

I'd agree, but they included Valerie, a character clearly designed to be (and only capable of being, due to design/stats) a tank NPC. So the fact she can't actually draw enemies is stupid; either give her a way to do that, or make her not be that kind of character!

Valerie's build is bad and whoever made her is a bad person and should feel bad about themselves. There's no excuse to make a fighter that crummy.

Taunting wouldn't help her, it will just bring the pain quicker due to the hyperpowered enemies.

 

[Cael]

As both a player and a DM for over 20 years

you should join the club and write your steam review.

There is no point. When you have fucked the game system in such a fundamental way, there really is no turning back. As I said before in another game: That is why you must always get the mechanics right the first time, because once you have fucked that up, your game is fucked. You can only hope that the players are OK with the fucked version because of other factors like graphics and story.

 

[glass blackbird]

Does the main character need to have points in persuasion or can I leave that up to the halfling sidekick?

Your party can do persuasion checks when they're with you, but sometimes your character specifically may be asked something or you may need to do a check during a situation where you're alone or in charge. Also, there's multiple kinds of persuasion checks (intimidate, etc) so you may want to still get it if you've got the points, or at least make sure you've got more than one persuasive party member.

 

[Cael]

Oh shit, maybe this is why we're not getting our keys - they burnt out their community manager

3. Eh. Tanking just isn't a thing in D&D. I don't want the game to be WoW
.

I'd agree, but they included Valerie, a character clearly designed to be (and only capable of being, due to design/stats) a tank NPC. So the fact she can't actually draw enemies is stupid; either give her a way to do that, or make her not be that kind of character!

Valerie's build is bad and whoever made her is a bad person and should feel bad about themselves. There's no excuse to make a fighter that crummy.

Taunting wouldn't help her, it will just bring the pain quicker due to the hyperpowered enemies.

If everyone has AC 38 and an attack bonus in the 18 range, I'd say the game is going to be a case of miss-miss-miss-miss-20! Start the fight and go for a cup of coffee.

 

[Shadenuat]

There are enough interesting options without Persuasion. Also it often leads to Good alignment. Some alignments also can lend a similar success as Persuasion checks. Lawful for some reason is the king of alignments there. Although maybe it's just first half of the game.

On Evil character, I'd skip it, for example. Or pick Intimidation Feat to add your STR to check if you're playing Sarevok.