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KickStarter Pathfinder: Kingmaker Pre-DLC Thread [GO TO NEW THREAD]

Rinslin Merwind

Erudite
Joined
Nov 4, 2017
Messages
1,274
Location
Sea of Eventualities
Perhaps I interrupt an important talk, but I decided to go as halfling and now thinking about what class and subclass better in combination with this race? My thoughts was about Bard (Archeologist) or Rogue (Eldrich Scoundrel), but I didn't played Pathfinder tabletop and don't know what fits more to rogue but not retarded in terms of magic.
 

Sharpedge

Prophet
Joined
Sep 14, 2018
Messages
1,061
After restarting this game 4 or 5 times I finally made a character I am satisfied with. I started out on unfair and found that a little too challenging for me, so shifted it down to hard and find it alright. I will probably move it back up once I have a better grasp of the game mechanics. Overall I am really enjoying it so far, outside of the bugs and typos which I assume will be fixed as the game goes along. Sitting at level 4 at this moment in time, quite a ways behind because of all the time I spent trying to make a character that satisfies me. If the game keeps up like this, I will be quite pleased with it.

Also, I finally stopped lurking and made a post here. Hi Codex.
 

LESS T_T

Arcane
Joined
Oct 5, 2012
Messages
13,582
Codex 2014
Interview with head of Owlcat and MCA, a slight hint about the future at the end: https://www.gamesindustry.biz/artic...cat-games-rerolled-tabletop-into-a-video-game

How Owlcat Games re-rolled tabletop into a video game
Studio head Oleg Shpilchevsky and narrative designer Chris Avellone discuss the challenges of creating Pathfinder: Kingmaker from the pen-and-paper RPG franchise

Owlcat Games is a newer studio name, but it masks a wealth of experience. Its small but mighty team has worked on a number of games together from Nival Interactive and My.com, ranging all the way back to Rage of Mages in the '90s to Skyforge as recently as 2015.

One thing they all had in common was a desire to try something very, very new.

"To be honest, we were a little bit tired with MMO production after 10 years spent on Allods Online and Skyforge, so we wanted to try something completely opposite from that - a story-driven RPG with multiple choices and meaningful consequences focused on a single-player experience," said Owlcat studio head Oleg Shpilchevsky.

That single-player RPG would be Pathfinder: Kingmaker, set in the universe of Paizo Entertainment's Pathfinder pen-and-paper RPG and inspired by its previously released Kingmaker campaign. With the blessing of Paizo, the team was already hard at work ahead of the game's Kickstarter campaign, but needed the crowdfunding to bolster the project's budget and scope. But even with the well-respected name of Pathfinder, rigorous planning ahead of the campaign, and years of experience in the industry, Shpilchevsky said there were no guarantees going in.

"You may hope that your Kickstarter campaign will be successful, but you never can be confident about it," Shpilchevsky said. "That month was probably the most nerve-wracking and stressful period in my whole life. But if the choice had to be made again, we would still run the campaign. Kickstarter, or crowdfunding in general, is almost the only way to prove objectively that your idea is worth people's attention. It's a great way to let your potential core community know about your game, to build the relationship with them and to involve them in game development through playtests, feedback and so on. In addition, crowdfunding allowed us to bring more content into the game including more classes, companions, quests, and especially regarding Kingdom variety."

Shpilchevsky and the others needn't have worried. The Kickstarter was not only successfully funded, but it passed the majority of its stretch goals, bringing in $909,057 compared to its original $500,000 funding goal. The campaign ran in June of last year, with a planned release date set in August 2018 - a fairly quick turnaround compared to other high-profile Kickstarter games. That ambitious launch date was aided by Owlcat's early start ahead of the campaign, and though the game was slightly delayed by a month for polish, it reached release just last week.

Pathfinder: Kingmaker presented a unique challenge for Owlcat. As an existing franchise, there were a number of expectations the studio had to live up to, but few of those expectations came from video games as a medium. The two previous Pathfinder games existed in entirely different genres - MMORPG (Pathfinder Online) and card game (Pathfinder Adventure) - and were completely disconnected from Owlcat's project. In making Kingmaker, the studio was looking not at past attempts to bring Pathfinder to video game form, but to other games with models the team loved alongside the tabletop Kingmaker campaign itself.

"Baldur's Gate was always our beloved reference," said Shpilchevsky. "We strove to recreate the best feelings one may remember from playing this great game. It did not mean our only goal was to make a blunt copy of Baldur's Gate, but let us be honest, the 'Would Baldur's Gate be better with this stuff?' benchmark was applied almost to every new feature or piece of content we were considering."

But to effectively marry the Pathfinder universe to what Owlcat loved about Baldur's Gate, Kingmaker needed something more. Pathfinder fans coming to the game would be looking to recreate at least some of their feelings from their tabletop experiences, something that isn't easily replicated in an entirely single-player campaign.

"From our point of view, the most challenging thing is to recreate the atmosphere of a friendly table playthrough with all the jokes, passionate discussions, curses, etc," said Shpilchevsky. "That's why one of our main focuses was the player's companions - to bring more life to their characters, let them react to your actions according to their personalities, or to support or leave or even betray you depending on player choices."

To that end, Owlcat needed a strong narrative created by experienced narrative designers. And for that the studio turned to veteran scriptwriter and Obsidian Entertainment co-founder Chris Avellone, whose numerous writing credits include Fallout 2, Fallout: New Vegas, Neverwinter Nights 2, Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic, Divinity: Original Sin II, and Pillars of Eternity.

Those games include a number of common threads, such as complex systems, player choice, and a far-reaching lore - all of which are crucial when facing the challenge of adapting a tabletop game to a video game.

"Pathfinder, like a number of tabletop role-playing games, is a turn-based system, and there are times where adapting turn-based mechanics to real-time mechanics can be a challenge," said Avellone. "It's something designers have wrestled with all the way back to Baldur's Gate 1, in which BioWare had to do a real-time system that simulated the turn-based rules.

"The other challenge is that Pathfinder is a rule-rich system, and there are a lot of classes, spells, and abilities to choose from. We implemented many of them for the game, but we weren't able to include every race, class, and skill - even though I think we did an impressive number, there's simply too many to do them all for this first Pathfinder game anyway. If we do more, we'd be able to expand on the ones we made for this game. It was one of the reasons we had the scaling Kickstarter goals we did - we wanted to make sure we were budgeting realistically for what we could accomplish, and it made the reasons transparent to the backers as well.

"Aside from the rulesets, though, one of the key elements of any pen-and-paper campaign is having a good Gamemaster running the adventure, and I think one thing that makes for a good Gamemaster is when they pay attention to your characters, give you an opportunity to shine, and also provide opportunities to see your actions play out in the world in significant ways - basically, they give you the chance to be the hero of your story...even if you're a villain.

Meaningful player choice is something games and studios have flirted and struggled with for years, yet both Shpilchevsky and Avellone cited it as a core component of translating the tabletop experience into video game form. Avellone says it's a challenge he was well-prepared for from his past work on games like Fallout, and it's one he has a clear philosophy for tackling.

"If you can make a player pause at a series of dialogue options or quest solutions and weigh each one for a while, then you've done it right," he said. "Ideally, choices should make you pause and consider carefully what you want to gain, or not lose, with each one. To make choices matter, however, you need to prove early as possible that reactivity in the game exists - and not just that the world is responding to your class, your gender, your alignment, but also the choices you've made, the more specific the better.

"For example, it's one thing for people to label you a goody two-shoes, but it's another thing to be congratulated on, say, upholding the law and enforcing tax collection when the person you're speaking to knows that you've been a friend to merchants in the game and maybe even saved a merchant's life or two. It can't have been easy for you to make the decision to tax those who could been considered your friends, but at the same time, you might get challenged by those same merchants, who might get angry and bluster about why you even bothered to save their lives only to tax them to death. Complications, complications, and more complications - those make for great reactivity, and genuinely make players feel part of the world and invested in it."

Another narrative-related complication that comes with an IP like Pathfinder is its complex lore. In a tabletop adventure, players might have a number of books or online references to delve into whenever they need background, and the longer they play, the more that persistant knowledge benefits their campaign. But Avellone says that cracking open a book when there's a question isn't always the best way to approach a massive video game universe.

"I find it's best to introduce a world slowly, and for complicated bits of lore, to choose certain personalities or quests in the game that help condense that lore and teach the player through their interactions with it," he said. "I think reading a lore book or getting a character exposition dump of dialogue is a poor way to do this - it's much better if you're ending a bloody feud between two families which requires you to know how the feud started, or solving a quest that requires you study and know a bit about the lineage of the person in the crypt you're plundering to solve a riddle, and so on.

"The important aspect is that at any point in the game, the player has a clear sense of their motivation, their goal, the immediate challenge to that goal from combat, to a locked door, to a stubborn prisoner you need to interrogate, and you can weave the lore around that in small amounts, bit by bit. If you've done your job well, within an hour or two, you'll have taught the player a huge amount about the world, and they've had fun doing so."

Pathfinder: Kingmaker launched last week, and for all the layers of story and gameplay its full release provides, Owlcat isn't done. Shpilchevsky says that the core team has known one another for a long time, many of them meeting through Rage of Mages, Silent Storm, and other older titles. They aren't going their separate ways any time soon, he says, and further expansion of the already-sizable Pathfinder universe (in whatever form that would take) isn't off the table for the future.

"It was Pathfinder which brought the vague dream to make a story-driven game to reality," Shpilchevsky said. "So, despite the fact that there's always more than one interesting opportunity to explore, we would definitely be happy to continue our journey [through the] Pathfinder universe."
 

Thonius

Arcane
Joined
Sep 18, 2014
Messages
6,495
Location
Pro-Tip Corporation.
Oh shit, maybe this is why we're not getting our keys - they burnt out their community manager

3. Eh. Tanking just isn't a thing in D&D. I don't want the game to be WoW
.
I'd agree, but they included Valerie, a character clearly designed to be (and only capable of being, due to design/stats) a tank NPC. So the fact she can't actually draw enemies is stupid; either give her a way to do that, or make her not be that kind of character!

Valerie's build is bad and whoever made her is a bad person and should feel bad about themselves. There's no excuse to make a fighter that crummy.

Taunting wouldn't help her, it will just bring the pain quicker due to the hyperpowered enemies.
Actualy as POPE Mole II suggested you can use her CHA to use Intimidate.
 

Luckmann

Arcane
Zionist Agent
Joined
Jul 20, 2009
Messages
3,759
Location
Scandinavia
2. Charge is in fact quite broken. In the book version it specifically does not allow you to charge through occupied squares, that is a Bull Rush. In the game's version you can go right through enemies to their back line. Normally that would require several combat manuever checks and possibly special feats or PrC abilities. The delay was likely introduced to try to balance this somewhat.
Bullrush is only if you want to push the guy backwards.

The game doesn't allow you to move through an occupied square except for a couple of instances (a very high Tumble check and, IIRC a special feat in the DMG2).

Even if they allowed it, that charge should trigger AoOs out the wazoo. Everyone and their mothers in the front line should be able to get one on the charger. That usually results in a dead charger long before he gets to the back line.
The AoO:sare in, though, but it seems you're allowed to roll Mobility or something because it's rarely an issue. I think the whole "blocked squares" thing was canned because they couldn't figure out how it would be conveyed to the player and shit.

It's already annying when things block the charge and you can't tell what, where or why, then you move two feet to the left and boom, can charge.
 

Grampy_Bone

Arcane
Joined
Jan 25, 2016
Messages
3,943
Location
Wandering the world randomly in search of maps
If everyone has AC 38 and an attack bonus in the 18 range, I'd say the game is going to be a case of miss-miss-miss-miss-20! Start the fight and go for a cup of coffee.

Yes and no. There are out-of-depth enemies everywhere who have more class levels than they should, but that Owlbear is a special case. You're really not supposed to fight it.
 

Luckmann

Arcane
Zionist Agent
Joined
Jul 20, 2009
Messages
3,759
Location
Scandinavia
Played it just a little bit.

So far it feels like NWN with interface that doesn't make you think about committing mass shooting.
Honestly, though, the UI is absolutely shit. The fact that it doesn't make you think about committing a mass shooting says more about NWN that PF:K.
 

Grampy_Bone

Arcane
Joined
Jan 25, 2016
Messages
3,943
Location
Wandering the world randomly in search of maps
because stronger monsters is a such a bad thing.

There are only so many challenging fights* using 3.x combat:

-The enemy is weaker but more numerous
-The enemy is equal in strength and numbers
-The enemy is stronger but fewer in numbers

If the enemy is stronger and more numerous, you are in trouble. You can only push things so far with super-genius tactics, at a certain point math will take over and you will simply lose no matter what.

Fact is, most players will avoid such a scenario precisely because they know it's hopeless. They will try to even the odds, reduce the enemy numbers, or change the battlefield in some way to gain an advantage. Think outside the box.

But this is a CRPG which means you are only allowed to think outside the box in ways the developers already thought of. In the case of the bandit fort there are a few different ways to even the odds, but I can think of dozens of options that players would use in such a PnP scenario that are simply impossible in the game. This is why I think balance is actually more important here than in a PnP game.

*(Some other examples would be a "puzzle fight" where the enemy is hard to fight unless you exploit a specific weakness, then it becomes easy, or a gimmick battle where the enemy has some huge advantage but the players can nullify it or reverse it in some way using some device or aspect of the battlefield, like using a plot-artifact.)
 

jf8350143

Liturgist
Joined
Apr 14, 2018
Messages
1,358
Triggered season of bloom, suppose to go hunting with some noble but spend the next 14 days upgrade my capital. The major quest goes on and tells me at the end of the hunt something awful happened. Then I go to the hunting ground, the NPCs just runs off to start hunting while the other NPC talks about "how horrible the end of the hunt is".

Also the ranger companions' quest seems to be bugged for me.
I bring him to the party and one NPC told me to talk to her later, but I can't talk to anyone there, did I miss something?
 

Shadenuat

Arcane
Joined
Dec 9, 2011
Messages
11,977
Location
Russia
There is something off with le Hunt quest, probably because the location it takes place at is same where Valygar quest happens which can fuck up Hunt quest.

It did not break the game for me or anything, but I still have 2 trophy heads from that location which I have no idea what to do with, and I didn't really "feel" the whole Hunt gettin resolved.
 

dragonul09

Arcane
Edgy
Joined
Dec 19, 2014
Messages
1,446
This game is so much better than PoE 1 and 2 and it's not even close, the music is better, the encounters are better, the difficulty on hard and unfair is briliant , the quests are decent enough, the combat feels good (not the best, but good enough), the maps don't feel claustrophobic like you were in a tunnel, they are big and packed with content, the puzzles are good and so many more areas where PoE lacks heart, this game is made with passion and vodka. One of the better games that I've played in the last 15 years and I only dream what this team could do with a bigger budget, pity they released it in this state, too many people are getting gamebreaking issues and so do I sadly, but I forgive them, I truly do:happytrollboy:
 
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jf8350143

Liturgist
Joined
Apr 14, 2018
Messages
1,358
Also when I go there some NPCs was surrounding a big ass wyrm, but after I buff my party and going forward, it triggered a cutscene where the wyrm attacks the NPCs like crazy and died in 5 seconds. It didn't even get attacked, just suddenly dead.
 

Alienman

Retro-Fascist
Patron
Joined
Sep 10, 2014
Messages
18,212
Location
Mars
Codex 2016 - The Age of Grimoire Make the Codex Great Again! Grab the Codex by the pussy Codex Year of the Donut Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag.
I have reached the PoE point in Kingmaker where having one tanking and the rest using bows/xbows is the best approach to most of the encounters. Except the bosses of course that still wtfpwns everyone.
 

Notorious

Augur
Joined
Dec 9, 2010
Messages
277
-terrible encounter design with enemies who are only challenging because they've incredibly bloated stats and they often come in waves which is always cheap. It's still mostly easy though, the only difficult enemies are the ones with insane AC or because you're heavily outnumbered.
-graphics are serviceable, but don't really give me any mood, also WOODS WOODS HILLS RIVER CROSSINGS x3!!, MORE WOODS MARSH CAVES.... BOOORING!
-D&D is still a terrible system... unsurprisingly. Again they could only make this game even remotely challenging by buffing everything or by spawning super rare monsters

The only counter argument I see is that it's "Fun", which is a very subjective statement. Still with nothing else on the horizon I'm gonna play it a while longer, it's OK for what it is I guess.
 

Thonius

Arcane
Joined
Sep 18, 2014
Messages
6,495
Location
Pro-Tip Corporation.
This game is so much better than PoE 1 and 2 and it's not even close, the music is better, the encounters are better, the difficulty on hard and unfair is briliant , the quests are decent enough, the combat feels good (not the best, but good enough), the maps don't feel claustrophobic like you were in a tunnel, they are big and packed with content, the puzzles are good and so many more areas where PoE lacks heart, this game is made with passion and vodka. One of the better games that I've played in the last 15 years and I only dream what this team could with a bigger budget, pity they released it in this state, too many people are getting gamebreaking issues and so do I sadly, but I forgive them, I truly do:happytrollboy:
C&C is real in this game, afect not just end slides.
 

Serus

Arcane
Patron
Joined
Jul 16, 2005
Messages
6,945
Location
Small but great planet of Potatohole
This game is so much better than PoE 1 and 2 and it's not even close, the music is better, the encounters are better, the difficulty on hard and unfair is briliant , the quests are decent enough, the combat feels good (not the best, but good enough), the maps don't feel claustrophobic like you were in a tunnel, they are big and packed with content, the puzzles are good and so many more areas where PoE lacks heart, this game is made with passion and vodka. One of the better games that I've played in the last 15 years and I only dream what this team could with a bigger budget, pity they released it in this state, too many people are getting gamebreaking issues and so do I sadly, but I forgive them, I truly do:happytrollboy:
With bigger budget they'd have to target a bigger audience which in turn usually results in devs playing "safe" to cater to as many people as possible. The end result would be probably a worse game. Not even trying to be edgy here. It is simple economics, the bigger the budget is the more copies you have to sell to make a profit. And the more copies you need to sell to make a profit the less focused you can be because you need to make happy more people who have more varied tastes. Or in edgy terms - you need to cater to more retards than you would otherwise.
 

Whisper

Arcane
Vatnik
Joined
Feb 29, 2012
Messages
4,357
How people are doing unfair mode?
I passed thru prologue with some difficulty and reloads (took 1 hour).
I found out that it is a must to make custom characters, but they are needed to be lvl 1 (500 gold cost) vs lvl 2 (2000 gold cost).
So you lose 1 lvl worth, which sucks. (Your characters are lvl 2, but new custom would be lvl 1).


If game didnt dick with pre-made characters not customisable, it would be much better to play on Unfair. Like it was in Original sin 2, where you could lvl character stats as you wanted.

Playing on Hard right now, its fun. If they implement reroll stats for story characters, it would be fun.
 

toroks

Educated
Joined
Dec 16, 2015
Messages
58
Holy shit summons don't disappear when you use the same spell, you can use it again and again, you can have up to 20-30 summons at the same time from a single char wreaking havoc left and right.

Hell if you use two clerics, you can have 40-50 skeletal champions, just stay back and watch the show:lol:
That's what I used to do in Baldur's Gate 1 as well :) Worked wonders in the toughest battles.
 

Whisper

Arcane
Vatnik
Joined
Feb 29, 2012
Messages
4,357
-terrible encounter design with enemies who are only challenging because they've incredibly bloated stats and they often come in waves which is always cheap. It's still mostly easy though, the only difficult enemies are the ones with insane AC or because you're heavily outnumbered.

Stats are OK, unless you talk about "Unfair" difficulty which is... unfair.
If they had less stats, fights would be too easy, on Hard they are reasonably hard.

Remember your own character stats are bloated too :) if you make them so.
 

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