KickStarter Pathfinder: Kingmaker Pre-DLC Thread [GO TO NEW THREAD]

[rusty_shackleford]

And it costs the anti-respecers nothing. They do not need to use it.

But it does cost... If you could respec in the game, it would turn skill/attribute checks in game useless, since anyone could play for a bit, see which ones the game will throw at you, reload and respec.
Now, the devs wouldn't want this to happen, so they would have to implement a way of deal with this, so they would have to come up with some complicated way to prevent it (wasting time and work to implement) or they would just think "what's the point? Let's get rid of the checks instead." and change the game to be worse by removing a good thing.

by this logic we should remove any mode but ironman because you can get around all skill/attribute checks by savescumming

 

[Incendax]

No. It has nothing to do with difficulty but everything to do with every last one of your posts having something to do with "What I want", "What I like (or don't)", "I get bored". I-I-I. Me-me-me. Selfish prick.

That's both sides of the discussion. What's your point?

It's quite clear their argument is that they'd be tempted to abuse it therefore the game must be free from temptations.

Since Storymode exists, and people are not rushing to turn down the difficulty at the slightest temptation, I don't think their argument is valid. Certainly some people are tempted and succumb, but none of us are the police of other people's fun. :D

 

[Incendax]

But it does cost... If you could respec in the game, it would turn skill/attribute checks in game useless, since anyone could play for a bit, see which ones the game will throw at you, reload and respec.

Only if you make that choice. You don't have to make that choice.

 

[Cael]

That's both sides of the discussion. What's your point?

Only one side is advocating changing the game to suit their wants.

 

[Alienman]

Wait for patches to play a more stable game

or

Continue playing to see how messed up things can get

Hard decision.

 

[Incendax]

That's both sides of the discussion. What's your point?

Only one side is advocating changing the game to suit their wants.

One side advocates that options are a bad thing. The other side advocates that options are a good thing.

 

[Mortmal]

Nice, another bug. This one is somewhat ruining my experience. I made a Thassalonian Wizard Necromancer so I get more spell slots. That one works like 3.5e specialist that it completely forbids two other schools from casting or using scrolls/wands with spells from those schools.
But the bug is that it also does not let you use any scrolls or wands lol, no matter what school

Any suggestions which combination of classes would be best Necro?

I was even thinking about making a Mystic Theurge Necro/Death Cleric. Or maybe some Eldritch Knight Necro

You dont have desecrate as spell, you dont have any good feats for undead either, cleric doesnt have undead commander sub class.. So the only good choice would be cleric with death domain , channeling negative energy. You can select the extra channel feat as many times you want,i am not sure it's ok with the real pathfinder rules but here it works.I dont see what a mystic theurge could bring you.

 

[Heroic Liberator]

That's both sides of the discussion. What's your point?

Only one side is advocating changing the game to suit their wants.

One side advocates that options are a bad thing. The other side advocates that options are a good thing.

Options are good when they expand, not restrain the depth of the system.

 

[Incendax]

Options are good when they expand, not restrain the depth of the system.

And this is definitely a case of expanding the depth of the system.

 

[Heroic Liberator]

Options are good when they expand, not restrain the depth of the system.

And this is definitely a case of expanding the depth of the system.

Definitely not,

The problem with respec is that it allows you to get through low-level content with one set of choices, then respec to different choices to tackle high-level content.

 

[Incendax]

The problem with respec is that it allows you to get through low-level content with one set of choices, then respec to different choices to tackle high-level content.

That's not a problem. That's an increase in your options, and doesn't need to be done by anyone who doesn't want to do it. Nothing but incline. Like walking into Baskin Robbins and being offered 31 flavors. Vanilla is there if you want it!

 

[Lacrymas]

Even without taking into consideration the mechanical implications of respec (of which there are many), it goes against the whole idea of roleplaying a concrete character. Can you imagine Fallout 1 or AoD with respec? *shudder*

 

[Incendax]

Even without taking into consideration the mechanical implications of respec (of which there are many), it goes against the whole idea of roleplaying a concrete character. Can you imagine Fallout 1 or AoD with respec? *shudder*

I can imagine Pathfinder with respec. Because it exists. In Pathfinder.

 

[rusty_shackleford]

Even without taking into consideration the mechanical implications of respec (of which there are many), it goes against the whole idea of roleplaying a concrete character.

"a wizard did it"
there, I fixed the roleplaying part for you.

 

[Heroic Liberator]

The problem with respec is that it allows you to get through low-level content with one set of choices, then respec to different choices to tackle high-level content.

That's not a problem. That's an expanded option, and doesn't need to be done by anyone who doesn't want to do it. Nothing but incline.

At that point, you're basically playing two different characters instead of developing a single one from start to finish.

Depth is added by having to decide on a build in which you'd manage both low and high levels. And to add to that, game should not be a smooth, linear experience - you have to strike a balance between building around your early game content or developing your character with late game in mind.

 

[roll-a-die]

Even without taking into consideration the mechanical implications of respec (of which there are many), it goes against the whole idea of roleplaying a concrete character. Can you imagine Fallout 1 or AoD with respec? *shudder*

I can imagine Pathfinder with respec. Because it exists. In Pathfinder.

And it's heavily fucking restricted.
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/basics-ability-scores/more-character-options/retraining/

 

[Incendax]

At that point, you're basically playing two different characters instead of developing a single one from start to finish.

If someone wants to do that, there is nothing wrong with that. You don't have to make that choice on your own playthrough.

Depth is added by having to decide on a build in which you'd manage both low and high levels. And to add to that, game should not be a smooth, linear experience - you have to strike a balance between building around your early game content or developing your character with late game in mind.

And that option ALSO exists for you. Both exist! Everyone is happy with their choices and all is good in the world.

 

[Rinslin Merwind]

Dear "anti-respec" people, sorry for interrupting your bowel of insults towards people who want respec system, but all your arguments based only on YOUR preferences in games, not actual facts. So right now you trying to force people play like YOU want and call anyone with different taste a retard (while retardation have nothing to do with different opinion). In my opinion truly good game can't be ruined by respec mechanic, because:
1) respec mechanic is a choice, so if you don't want it - don't use it
2) properly balanced game can be fun for any class with normal distribution of stats, so respec can't influence on anything.

Choice is always good, only slaves can't choosing. Respec => more choice => good.
Although I prefer planning my play style beforehand (so I will be able to play without respecing anything through whole game) I can understand people who want respecc, since game bugged as hell with different rules that original PnP, so planning a bit impossible at the moment.

Definitely not,

I don't know about depth, but this

The problem with respec is that it allows you to get through low-level content with one set of choices, then respec to different choices to tackle high-level content.

is most weird argument that I heard today. Because if stats that allow you tackle high lievel content does not allow you to leave prologue - game have stupid design. I mean, who the fuck needs separate build for start part of game?

 

[rusty_shackleford]

The problem with respec is that it allows you to get through low-level content with one set of choices, then respec to different choices to tackle high-level content.

That's not a problem. That's an expanded option, and doesn't need to be done by anyone who doesn't want to do it. Nothing but incline.

At that point, you're basically playing two different characters instead of developing a single one from start to finish.

Depth is added by having to decide on a build in which you'd manage both low and high levels. And to add to that, game should not be a smooth, linear experience - you have to strike a balance between building around your early game content or developing your character with late game in mind.

Why should someone have to play the game the way you want to play it?
You haven't given a good reason for this.

 

[Incendax]

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/basics-ability-scores/more-character-options/retraining/

That's not my definition of heavily restricted. That's extremely versatile retraining.

 

[Shadenuat]

Why should someone have to play the game the way you want to play it?
You haven't given a good reason for this.

Why should someone play the game the way you play the game the way you want to play the game how you want to play though?
You have not given any reasons either.

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/basics-ability-scores/more-character-options/retraining/

That's not my definition of heavily restricted. That's extremely versatile retraining.

Most players still can't kill spider swarms, don't make them go insane reading this.

 

[Heroic Liberator]

Dear "anti-respec" people, sorry for interrupting your bowel of insults towards people who want respec system, but all your arguments based only on YOUR preferences in games, not actual facts. So right now you trying to force people play like YOU want and call anyone with different taste a retard (while retardation have nothing to do with different opinion). In my opinion truly good game can't be ruined by respec mechanic, because:
1) respec mechanic is a choice, so if you don't want it - don't use it
2) properly balanced game can be fun for any class with normal distribution of stats, so respec can't influence on anything.

Choice is always good, only slaves can't choosing. Respec => more choice => good.
Although I prefer planning my play style beforehand (so I will be able to play without respecing anything through whole game) I can understand people who want respecc, since game bugged as hell with different rules that original PnP, so planning a bit impossible at the moment.

Definitely not,

I don't know about depth, but this

The problem with respec is that it allows you to get through low-level content with one set of choices, then respec to different choices to tackle high-level content.

is most weird argument that I heard today. Because if stats that allow you tackle high lievel content does not allow you to leave prologue - game have stupid design. I mean, who the fuck needs separate build for start part of game?

Good game design makes respec obsolete by your own arguments. The lack of respec forces the player to make a choice as to how to approach the game from beginning to end, thus every choice is relevant. And as to the unfamiliarity of a player with a system, that's part of its charm - you fuck up with a particular build, realize your mistakes and then either adjust or try a different build altogether.

 

[roll-a-die]

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/basics-ability-scores/more-character-options/retraining/

That's not my definition of heavily restricted. That's extremely versatile retraining.

Did you read it?

It's versatile, but also restricted and elaborated on heavily and not advised until you have more money than a god. And you are utterly useless for literally months for a full respec at mid to high levels. You also can't take a fighter to a wizard, you can however take a fighter to a magus, and then wait a bunch of time, and take a magus to a wizard.

Like everything in pathfinder as well, this rule is OPTIONAL. Meaning a GM can choose to not let you do it as well.


More than that, it's not a one choice solution. You don't click a button, I'd love a pathfinder style respec system, but it's nearly impossible to do so in a sensible fashion, without alienating people. Because if you looked at them, and said, "Okay you're wizards training to be a different class, go out and adventure for 3 months in timeline." They'd promptly turn off the game, because it didn't give them the instant hit of gratification they wanted.

 

[Incendax]

Why should someone play the game the way you play the game the way you want to play the game how you want to play though?
You have not given any reasons either.

They don't have to. That's the beautiful thing about having a choice! We don't force you to play the way you don't want to, and you don't force us to play the way you want to.

 

[Risewild]

And it costs the anti-respecers nothing. They do not need to use it.

But it does cost... If you could respec in the game, it would turn skill/attribute checks in game useless, since anyone could play for a bit, see which ones the game will throw at you, reload and respec.
Now, the devs wouldn't want this to happen, so they would have to implement a way of deal with this, so they would have to come up with some complicated way to prevent it (wasting time and work to implement) or they would just think "what's the point? Let's get rid of the checks instead." and change the game to be worse by removing a good thing.

by this logic we should remove any mode but ironman because you can get around all skill/attribute checks by savescumming

By this logic I don't see any logic.
You can't savescumm to pass every check, there will be impossible checks unless you have a high enough skill or attribute. IIRC (I haven't looked into Pathfinder rules since the early 2010's) in pathfinder there is no critical success or failure if you get a 20 or a 1 on the d20 roll for a skill or attribute check, only on combat you get a critical threat. So good luck trying to succeed on a skill check of 21+ if you have 0 skill . No matter how much you savescum, you can't succeed unless you have high enough skills/attributes.

Also another problem with respec:
Let's say you have a fighter with the Dodge, Mobility, Spring Attack, Combat Expertise and Whirlwind Attack feats. Now you respec that Fighter and make it have Dex 10 and Int 10. What would happen to all of those feats? Would you be able to keep them even though you don't qualify to get them anymore? Would you lose them? If you lose them, would you be able to replace them? Does that mean that you just spoiled your character and now have to respec not only attributes but also feats?
What happens if a character changes their Int value? What would happen to the amount of skill points already assigned? Would the character lose or add random skills points?
What would happen if you change alignment? Would your alignment restricted class and abilities be gone and you now have a gimped character?
How about character race?

Or are you suggesting that instead of respec, you can just make a new character from scratch but with the same amount of exp as your previous character? That is not respec though.

While on PnP it would be easier or harder to deal with this depending on the DM, on a computer game it would be a lot of time and work lost to find ways for the game not to explode. It seems it is even having troubles to keep in check temporary bonuses now, and it keep accumulating them. Imagine what would have happened if anyone could respec and change all the numbers and points in things... Total chaos!