KickStarter Pathfinder: Kingmaker Pre-DLC Thread [GO TO NEW THREAD]

[Cael]

I just did troll dungon on hard with 1 rest. pressed on because had only 11 rations, wasted every potion and wand of fireball and scroll of haste and hp potion and enlarged potion. cleared both levels until 3 branded trolls and final boss.

the big troll died of laughter. for some reason he was ignoring hold person. here's a thing about laughter - it locks monster in a particular animation, and it takes time for him to fall down and then get back up. And that is where you waste the motherfucker. Level 7 party.

Here's a thing about this fight on Hard+. You might want to kill actual kobold first because he buffs the boss, but he is a mastah +22 concentration defensive caster and fully buffed +concealment +decent hp, so unless you have some sort of 100% way of dealing with him (maybe you're lucky with dispels, idk) trying to kill him is a waste of time. And splash damage from acid flask did trigger his concetration checks anyway for me.

Instead focus on the boss with as much damage as possible, and create an extra hp buffer through summons. Here there were some skelengtons and leopards and uberbuffed bear (splatted on the floor with giant trollclub on the picture, but he did his duty) for that. Then it's just maximizing damage. Sure Tartuk can paralyze you, but he may choose wrong targets and he also likes his prebuffing and magic missiles, and targeting your weaker characters, so you have the time. His Will save is strong but with both perks of spell focus Enchantment Lindzi eventually did her thing.

Hold PERSON. A troll isn't a person (only humanoids qualify; troll is a giant), at least in 3.x. You need Hold MONSTER for a troll. Tasha's works on everyone, except people who are not the same type as you get a +4 bonus to saves because humour doesn't translate well (that is actually in the PHB...).

To get to +22 concentration, you need to be level 19 or a lower level with a Con boost or items. At level 7, you need a total of +12 from items and Con bonus. Doable, but highly unlikely. Paizo screwed the pooch, as usual.

Any damage trigger concentration checks, but only if he is casting. But since his bonus is so high, there is zero chance of him failing it (there is no 0 = autofail when it comes to skill checks). With concealment and all that, you might want to think about area of effect spells as that bypasses concealment. Fireball, Lightning Bolt, Ice Storm, etc.

 

[Sykar]

guise question about dips.
Monks are restricted to lawful. if i start lawful and dip a level in monk for some of the feats/class features, then later on aligment shifts... I get taht i cannot levleup monk anymore but do i lose access to monk class features?

similarly paladin dips.
start as lawful good, 2 level dip in palladin for +CHA to saves, then level up other stuffies and alignment shits. no more pally levels thats ok but do i lose access to the palladin class features?

Per PnP you do.

but as per owlcat game?

No idea, sorry. But I'd be very surprised if you didn't lose all your Paladin abilities.

That would be huge incline.

 

[Shadenuat]

Hold PERSON. A troll isn't a person (only humanoids qualify; troll is a giant), at least in 3.x. You need Hold MONSTER for a troll. Tasha's works on everyone, except people who are not the same type as you get a +4 bonus to saves because humour doesn't translate well

Nah if spell doesn't affect creature game doesn't allow you to cast it - like you can't cast hold animal on human. Trolls do take checks against Hold Person and can fail them.

Spell is Hideous Laughter, it doesn't have penalty for creature types. So I buffed le hell out of Lindzi's Charisma (which does affect DC even if you can't check it anywhere) & Enchantment feats and she's great.

 

[Cael]

Hold PERSON. A troll isn't a person (only humanoids qualify; troll is a giant), at least in 3.x. You need Hold MONSTER for a troll. Tasha's works on everyone, except people who are not the same type as you get a +4 bonus to saves because humour doesn't translate well

Nah if spell doesn't affect creature game doesn't allow you to cast it - like you can't cast hold animal on human. Trolls do take checks against Hold Person and can fail them.

Spell is Hideous Laughter, it doesn't have penalty for creature types. So I buffed le hell out of Lindzi's Charisma (which does affect DC even if you can't check it anywhere) & Enchantment feats and she's great.

Paizo screwed the pooch on that one, then. It makes Tasha's into a horribly OP first level (for Bard) spell, and Hold Person into something that is insanely powerful for a 2nd level spell. There are good reasons why low level save-or-dies have massive restrictions on them.

No wonder they felt the need to buff the crap out of the enemies if that is the kind of nonsense they are allowing into the game. Seems more like a band-aid fix to a problem they introduced in the first place than a problem with the game itself.

This is starting to remind me of Gold Box Stinking Cloud.

 

[Cael]

Hey meta-magic question - empower or heightened spell?

Depends. Heightened is good for increasing DC and trying to penetrate Globe of Invulnerability. Empower is straight out extra damage.

 

[Yosharian]

Hideous Laughter:

This spell afflicts the subject with uncontrollable laughter. It collapses into gales of manic laughter, falling prone. The subject can take no actions while laughing, but is not considered helpless. After the spell ends, it can act normally. On the creature’s next turn, it may attempt a new saving throw to end the effect. This is a full round action that does not provoke attacks of opportunity. If this save is successful, the effect ends. If not, the creature continues laughing for the entire duration. A creature with an Intelligence score of 2 or lower is not affected. A creature whose type is different from the caster’s receives a +4 bonus on its saving throw, because humor doesn’t “translate” well.

- 1 round per level duration
- Subject gets a new save every turn
- +4 bonus for not being humanoid

Seems balanced to me.

Hold Person:

The subject becomes paralyzed and freezes in place. It is aware and breathes normally but cannot take any actions, even speech. Each round on its turn, the subject may attempt a new saving throw to end the effect. This is a full-round action that does not provoke attacks of opportunity. A winged creature who is paralyzed cannot flap its wings and falls. A swimmer can’t swim and may drown.

- 1 round per level duration
- Subject gets a new save every turn
- Trolls are humanoid

Again, seems fine to me.

Both of these spells seem more or less identical to their D&D counterparts, even 2nd Edition Hold Person states that it works on humanoids. Maybe Trolls weren't classed as humanoids in 2nd Edition. In any case 2nd Edition Hold Person worked on groups of creatures and, if I remember correctly, didn't include a new save each turn.

 

[pm_675]

Does anybody have any idea how resting actually works?

I put the clock thingy for a 9 hour rest but then it acutally pass 15 o 18 hours. It's afected by hunting. cooking, jerking off in the camp management?

Or are my characters a bunch of lazy bums?

 

[Monkeyfinger]

I just did troll dungon on hard with 1 rest. pressed on because had only 11 rations, wasted every potion and wand of fireball and scroll of haste and hp potion and enlarged potion. cleared both levels until 3 branded trolls and final boss.

the big troll died of laughter. for some reason he was ignoring hold person. here's a thing about laughter - it locks monster in a particular animation, and it takes time for him to fall down and then get back up. And that is where you waste the motherfucker. Level 7 party.

Spoiler

Jubilost proved essential of course.

Here's a thing about this fight on Hard+. You might want to kill actual kobold first because he buffs the boss, but he is a mastah +22 concentration defensive caster and fully buffed +concealment +decent hp, so unless you have some sort of 100% way of dealing with him (maybe you're lucky with dispels, idk) trying to kill him is a waste of time. And splash damage from acid flask did trigger his concetration checks anyway for me.

Instead focus on the boss with as much damage as possible, and create an extra hp buffer through summons. Here there were some skelengtons and leopards and uberbuffed bear (splatted on the floor with giant trollclub on the picture, but he did his duty) for that. Then it's just maximizing damage. Sure Tartuk can paralyze you, but he may choose wrong targets and he also likes his prebuffing and magic missiles, and targeting your weaker characters, so you have the time. His Will save is strong but with both perks of spell focus Enchantment Lindzi eventually did her thing.

I went the distract boss with summons, wait for kobold to cast something then focus him with all dmg route. Same difficulty, kobold died in less than 2 rounds. I have way more phys damage than you though. Instead of a druid, valerie and amira I have two handed fighter, vivisectionist, ekundayo and his doggo. All buffed up by Linzi ofc. Doggo has paper durability but hits for 30 at party lvl 7. Concealment is whatever, without good HP and AC no caster is surviving a gang up from those 4.

 

[Monkeyfinger]

Does anybody have any idea how resting actually works?

I put the clock thingy for a 9 hour rest but then it acutally pass 15 o 18 hours. It's afected by hunting. cooking, jerking off in the camp management?

Or are my characters a bunch of lazy bums?

You have hunting on and "use rations" off. With those settings the rest is however long it takes for your hunter to get 6 rations, and 20ish hours is normal for that

If you turn on use rations, your hunter will only hunt 9 hours and will usually get around 2 rations for that.

 

[Cael]

Hideous Laughter:

This spell afflicts the subject with uncontrollable laughter. It collapses into gales of manic laughter, falling prone. The subject can take no actions while laughing, but is not considered helpless. After the spell ends, it can act normally. On the creature’s next turn, it may attempt a new saving throw to end the effect. This is a full round action that does not provoke attacks of opportunity. If this save is successful, the effect ends. If not, the creature continues laughing for the entire duration. A creature with an Intelligence score of 2 or lower is not affected. A creature whose type is different from the caster’s receives a +4 bonus on its saving throw, because humor doesn’t “translate” well.

- 1 round per level duration
- Subject gets a new save every turn
- +4 bonus for not being humanoid

Seems balanced to me.

Hold Person:

The subject becomes paralyzed and freezes in place. It is aware and breathes normally but cannot take any actions, even speech. Each round on its turn, the subject may attempt a new saving throw to end the effect. This is a full-round action that does not provoke attacks of opportunity. A winged creature who is paralyzed cannot flap its wings and falls. A swimmer can’t swim and may drown.

- 1 round per level duration
- Subject gets a new save every turn
- Trolls are humanoid

Again, seems fine to me.

Both of these spells seem more or less identical to their D&D counterparts, even 2nd Edition Hold Person states that it works on humanoids. Maybe Trolls weren't classed as humanoids in 2nd Edition. In any case 2nd Edition Hold Person worked on groups of creatures and, if I remember correctly, didn't include a new save each turn.

Trolls are not humanoid except in shape. Never have been. They are classed as giants. Again, unless Paizo screwed the pooch.

 

[pm_675]

Does anybody have any idea how resting actually works?

I put the clock thingy for a 9 hour rest but then it acutally pass 15 o 18 hours. It's afected by hunting. cooking, jerking off in the camp management?

Or are my characters a bunch of lazy bums?

You have hunting on and "use rations" off. With those settings the rest is however long it takes for your hunter to get 6 rations, and 20ish hours is normal for that

If you turn on use rations, your hunter will only hunt 9 hours and will usually get around 2 rations for that.

Thanks, I though it was that. They could have put something to make it clear it takes more time if you hunt.

 

[santino27]

oh, didn't even notice 1.02 is out

https://owlcatgames.com/forums/showthread.php?5127-1-02-Patch-Notes

Started my latest game aftert he patch. The treant/bear thing died in a charge and one critted blow from the barbarian. Seems a bit overtuned, but I may have just gotten lucky.

Also ran into a random encounter at level 2 with a party of 7 bandits (3 in front, four behind, including a conjurer), so they may not have fixed all their random encounter stuff yet.

 

[deuxhero]

In Pathfinder they consolidated several monster types into subtypes for existing ones. All giants, including trolls, are now Humanoid (Giant) and all elementals are Outsider (Elemental). Most giants really are just "human but big and elemental powers" and aren't weird to class as humanoids, though troll is really the odd one out, and it fixes humanoids having no monsters that aren't just people with class levels. Elementals having their own creature type never really had a point except making their RHD worse in exchange for immunity to sneak attack (which everyone hated because it made one character class useless, something that virtually never happened to the others).

PF has had the giant subtype on non-humanoids for a while now, so there is no reason trolls couldn't have been Monstrous Humanoid (Giant)

 

[rusty_shackleford]

oh, didn't even notice 1.02 is out

https://owlcatgames.com/forums/showthread.php?5127-1-02-Patch-Notes

Started my latest game aftert he patch. The treant/bear thing died in a charge and one critted blow from the barbarian. Seems a bit overtuned, but I may have just gotten lucky.

Also ran into a random encounter at level 2 with a party of 7 bandits (3 in front, four behind, including a conjurer), so they may not have fixed all their random encounter stuff yet.

I think those kind of randoms are intended. In 1.0 I got a random fight with 2 elder fire elementals at level 3 or something.

 

[glass blackbird]

I love how Octavia's AI makes her use Acid Splash instead of any rogue weapons, making her level in that even more useless than it normally would be. You've got DEX for no reason, you bitch, fucking shoot them

 

[rusty_shackleford]

any RTwP without a 'programmable' AI is going to disappoint. DAO was a massive improvement, and PoE2 followed in its footsteps.

 

[SkiNNyBane]

any RTwP without a 'programmable' AI is going to disappoint. DAO was a massive improvement, and PoE2 followed in its footsteps.

I fully disagree. Inclusion of any ai outside of autocast is full decline immersion breaking bullshit. Equivalent to aimbot in fps. POE2 is perfect example of what not to do. Just go full adventure game if that is what you want imo. And I am not saying it like adventure games are shit. I love them. Just keep the auto shit away from my gameplay fag games.

Encounter based games such as this need to be difficult enough and classes be varied enough for you to micromanage movement and skill usage. If a simple script can do best cast progression then the class is designed poorly.

 

[Cael]

In Pathfinder they consolidated several monster types into subtypes for existing ones. All giants, including trolls, are now Humanoid (Giant) and all elementals are Outsider (Elemental). Most giants really are just "human but big and elemental powers" and aren't weird to class as humanoids, though troll is really the odd one out, and it fixes humanoids having no monsters that aren't just people with class levels. Elementals having their own creature type never really had a point except making their RHD worse in exchange for immunity to sneak attack (which everyone hated because it made one character class useless, something that virtually never happened to the others).

PF has had the giant subtype on non-humanoids for a while now, so there is no reason trolls couldn't have been Monstrous Humanoid (Giant)

This is actually a very bad idea. It completely unbalances the game at low levels, especially when we start talking about the efficacy of mages vs fighters. We want the likes of ogres and trolls to be unaffected by things like Hold Person because it cuts the power of those spells, something that is sorely needed in the game as a whole to begin with.

And no, not everyone hated that sneak attack doesn't affect entire races. It made sense, given what sneak attack represents. Please tell me where is the vulnerable points of a living mass of flames. Only the munchkins and the dramaqueens hated it, and both those groups can go jump.

 

[Cael]

I love how Octavia's AI makes her use Acid Splash instead of any rogue weapons, making her level in that even more useless than it normally would be. You've got DEX for no reason, you bitch, fucking shoot them

Anything that has a roll can be used for sneak attack. Acid Splash qualifies, and has the added bonus of being a touch attack rather than an ordinary one?

 

[PhantasmaNL]

The wolves encounter was easy as fuck playing on normal. I assume it was more difficult on the harder difficulties?

Play on challenging and did not have any trouble.

And i am a very mediocre rtwp player.

What is it with these Russians anyway? Another Russian made tactical war game, which was originally also difficult, well at least more difficult than standard Western fare, also got an update lowering the difficulty (talking about Panzer Strategy).

Keep it as designed (apart from obvious bugs) dammit!

 

[rusty_shackleford]

any RTwP without a 'programmable' AI is going to disappoint. DAO was a massive improvement, and PoE2 followed in its footsteps.

I fully disagree. Inclusion of any ai outside of autocast is full decline immersion breaking bullshit. Equivalent to aimbot in fps. POE2 is perfect example of what not to do. Just go full adventure game if that is what you want imo. And I am not saying it like adventure games are shit. I love them. Just keep the auto shit away from my gameplay fag games.

Encounter based games such as this need to be difficult enough and classes be varied enough for you to micromanage movement and skill usage. If a simple script can do best cast progression then the class is designed poorly.

Expecting me to micromanage an entire D&D party is just downright stupid. Do you play PnP D&D by yourself controlling six characters or only your own?

 

[santino27]

oh, didn't even notice 1.02 is out

https://owlcatgames.com/forums/showthread.php?5127-1-02-Patch-Notes

Started my latest game aftert he patch. The treant/bear thing died in a charge and one critted blow from the barbarian. Seems a bit overtuned, but I may have just gotten lucky.

Also ran into a random encounter at level 2 with a party of 7 bandits (3 in front, four behind, including a conjurer), so they may not have fixed all their random encounter stuff yet.

I think those kind of randoms are intended. In 1.0 I got a random fight with 2 elder fire elementals at level 3 or something.

Oh yeah, it's definitely toned down since 1.0, but at lvl 2, and fresh out of Oleg's, my party of 4 stood very little chance against a bandit brawler, bandit conjurer, and five of their closest friends. Maybe on normal, it would've been fine.

I love how Octavia's AI makes her use Acid Splash instead of any rogue weapons, making her level in that even more useless than it normally would be. You've got DEX for no reason, you bitch, fucking shoot them

Anything that has a roll can be used for sneak attack. Acid Splash qualifies, and has the added bonus of being a touch attack rather than an ordinary one?

Sure, but it does what 1-3 damage (+ sneak attack)? vs. <weapon damage, which could be 1-10 plus elemental dmg> + sneak attack. I'd like to be able to at least remove abilities from their AI by taking them off the hotbar.

 

[SkiNNyBane]

any RTwP without a 'programmable' AI is going to disappoint. DAO was a massive improvement, and PoE2 followed in its footsteps.

I fully disagree. Inclusion of any ai outside of autocast is full decline immersion breaking bullshit. Equivalent to aimbot in fps. POE2 is perfect example of what not to do. Just go full adventure game if that is what you want imo. And I am not saying it like adventure games are shit. I love them. Just keep the auto shit away from my gameplay fag games.

Encounter based games such as this need to be difficult enough and classes be varied enough for you to micromanage movement and skill usage. If a simple script can do best cast progression then the class is designed poorly.

Expecting me to micromanage an entire D&D party is just downright stupid. Do you play PnP D&D by yourself controlling six characters or only your own?

IMO its an indication you just don't like this type of game not that this game type is missing the feature.

Half the fun in star craft was micromanaging units. I find that shit fun. For those that lack that type of skill there are games that completely lack mechanical challenge like 4x. Again nothing wrong with 4x. If you like spreadsheets and turn based auto shit go for it. But this is just not the game for that.

 

[glass blackbird]

Anything that has a roll can be used for sneak attack. Acid Splash qualifies, and has the added bonus of being a touch attack rather than an ordinary one?

yeah except she never, ever uses anything else, including if you give her melee stuff; she'll deliberately stay away and use acid spray instead.

 

[rusty_shackleford]

any RTwP without a 'programmable' AI is going to disappoint. DAO was a massive improvement, and PoE2 followed in its footsteps.

I fully disagree. Inclusion of any ai outside of autocast is full decline immersion breaking bullshit. Equivalent to aimbot in fps. POE2 is perfect example of what not to do. Just go full adventure game if that is what you want imo. And I am not saying it like adventure games are shit. I love them. Just keep the auto shit away from my gameplay fag games.

Encounter based games such as this need to be difficult enough and classes be varied enough for you to micromanage movement and skill usage. If a simple script can do best cast progression then the class is designed poorly.

Expecting me to micromanage an entire D&D party is just downright stupid. Do you play PnP D&D by yourself controlling six characters or only your own?

IMO its an indication you just don't like this type of game not that this game type is missing the feature.

Half the fun in star craft was micromanaging units. I find that shit fun.

If your implication is that I don't enjoy pausing every 0.2 seconds to micromanage a party member, yes, you're right -- RTwP is trash.