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KickStarter Pathfinder: Kingmaker Pre-Release Thread [GAME RELEASED, GO TO NEW THREAD]

archaen

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If there are Pathfinders experts on codex can we get a Tier List of the classes at least

Any tier for table top will be completely out of whack for this game as they are set for normal adventuring day e.g. 4 encounters at an appropriate Challenge Rating then a rest. This game is stuffed with a lot of filler combat compared to a normally run game and classes that can run all day without consumables get a boost in general. The other part is that things that make something high tier in table top aren't really accessible in the game. There is no teleportation to Absalom, or plane shifting to Elysium. You can't create pocket dimensions where time stands still to craft and plot in. Therefore the big bad casters lose a lot of their versatility.

From my play throughs it seems that the Inquisitor is nice as it has decent offense, wears medium armor, and gets a ton of skill points. At least one cleric is mandatory to take care of debuffs and heal due to there not being any wands of Cure Light Wounds and no crafting. You need at least one tanky character, which unfortunately is either your PC or Valerie, who looks like she was built by a 5 year old with her stats completely out of whack for what she is supposed to do. The arcane trickster chick is pretty good, but I think a straight wizard would be better(again not accessible unless it is your PC), but it is nice to keep taking the extra sneak attack damage feat and casting acid splash for 30 damage. I did an alpha play through with a paladin and that was easy mode as he could heal himself, was armored, hit like a truck, and could smite the big bads. Maguses suck due to how much micromanagement they take. Archers, once they get precise shot, are pretty decent no matter what flavor as long as you can meat shield them. Rogues got a big boost as you no longer have to actually flank to use your sneak attack, only have more than one person attacking the target.

Here is table top tiers:
Some Autist said:
You know, I figured, what the heck. I have my own perspective on the Tiers, so I may as well share it.

ACG = Advanced Class Guide Playtest

Anything in red is weak for its tier. Anything in blue is strong for its tier. Not sure if there's a point to color-coding Tier 1s or Tier 6s, but I marked the vow of poverty monk in red for Tier 6 since it's so stupid it's usually in a league of its own.

Tier 1: Capable of doing absolutely everything, often better than classes that specialize in that thing. Often capable of solving encounters with a single mechanical ability and little thought from the player. Has world changing powers at high levels. These guys, if played with skill, can easily break a campaign and can be very hard to challenge without extreme DM fiat or plenty of house rules, especially if Tier 3s and below are in the party.

Wizard, Druid, Cleric, Witch, Sorcerer (Razmiran Priest archetype, Paragon Surge spell, Mongrel Mage archetype, Mnemonic Vestment robe), Oracle (Paragon Surge spell, Mnemonic Vestment robe, Dreamed Secrets feat), Psychic (Mnemonic Esoterica discipline power, Mnemonic Vestment robe) Shaman, Arcanist

Tier 2: Has as much raw power as the Tier 1 classes, but can't pull off nearly as many tricks, and while the class itself is capable of anything, no one build can actually do nearly as much as the Tier 1 classes. Still potentially campaign smashers by using the right abilities, but at the same time are more predictable and can't always have the right tool for the job. If the Tier 1 classes are countries with 10,000 nuclear weapons in their arsenal, these guys are countries with 10 nukes. Still dangerous and easily world shattering, but not in quite so many ways. Note that the Tier 2 classes are often less flexible than Tier 3 classes... it's just that their incredible potential power overwhelms their lack in flexibility.

Oracle, Psychic, Sorcerer, Summoner, Unchained Summoner

Tier 3: Capable of doing one thing quite well, while still being useful when that one thing is inappropriate, or capable of doing all things, but not as well as classes that specialize in that area. Occasionally has a mechanical ability that can solve an encounter, but this is relatively rare and easy to deal with. Can be game breaking only with specific intent to do so. Challenging such a character takes some thought from the DM, but isn't too difficult. Will outshine any Tier 5s in the party much of the time.

Alchemist, Bard, Skald, Inquisitor, Magus, Investigator, Warpriest, Hunter, Eldritch Scoundrel Rogue, Vigilante w/ spellcasting archetype, Occultist, Mesmerist, Medium, Spiritualist

Tier 4: Capable of doing one thing quite well, but often useless when encounters require other areas of expertise, or capable of doing many things to a reasonable degree of competence without truly shining. Rarely has any abilities that can outright handle an encounter unless that encounter plays directly to the class's main strength. DMs may sometimes need to work to make sure Tier 4s can contribute to an encounter, as their abilities may sometimes leave them useless. Won't outshine anyone except Tier 6s except in specific circumstances that play to their strengths. Cannot compete effectively with Tier 1s that are played well.

Barbarian, Unchained Barbarian, Paladin, Ranger, Adept, Bloodrager, Slayer, Martial Master and/or Mutation Warrior Fighter, Archetyped Brawlers, Kineticist, Shifter

Tier 5: Capable of doing only one thing, and not necessarily all that well, or so unfocused that they have trouble mastering anything, and in many types of encounters the character cannot contribute. In some cases, can do one thing very well, but that one thing is very often not needed. Has trouble shining in any encounter unless the encounter matches their strengths. DMs may have to work to avoid the player feeling that their character is worthless unless the entire party is Tier 4 and below. Characters in this tier will often feel like one trick ponies if they do well, or just feel like they have no tricks at all if they build the class poorly.

Fighter, Vanilla Brawler, Vigilante, Ninja, Rogue, Unchained Rogue, Cavalier, Samurai, Gunslinger, Swashbuckler (ACG), Archetyped Monks, Unchained Monk

Tier 6: Not even capable of shining in their own area of expertise. DMs will need to work hard to make encounters that this sort of character can contribute in with their mechanical abilities. Will often feel worthless unless the character is seriously powergamed beyond belief, and even then won't be terribly impressive. Needs to fight enemies of lower than normal CR. Class is often completely unsynergized or with almost no abilities of merit. Avoid allowing PCs to play these characters.
 

frajaq

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Makes sense, thanks for the write up

By the looks of it as long as I have 1 Wizard and 1 Cleric I'm gonna be good to go with whatever else in the party. So just like Pillars of Eternity :lol:
 

DrLocrian

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Forgot I backed this until I saw the feature trailer. After watching the tutorial area, I am pretty hyped. Looks great!
 

Grunker

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They can't invent their own thing in this game, it has to be a standard Pathfinder bard.

How are Pathfinder bards Grunker?

They are fantastic. They have a lot of useful songs and they can sing while taking other actions. At first, it takes a standard action to initiate bardic music, then a free action to maintain it. From there it goes down to a Move action and then Swift action.

So while they’re jack of all trades masters of none, their music means that while doing something else worse than other classes (attacking, casting spells) they’re also pumping out an area effect.

With Lingering Song later on, they can sing, then stop singing letting that song linger, and start up a new song. So two songs will be running while they do other stuff.

The way I’d translate it to a real time game is to make them aurabots, kinda like NWN 2 did but with reduced power level.

Here are the bard archetypes: http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/bard/archetypes/paizo-bard-archetypes/

The two I’m rooting for are Arcane Duelist and Archaeologist. The former might actually be the least obtrusive way of casting arcane spells in full plate in Pathfinder.
 
Last edited:

Zed Duke of Banville

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By the way is there ANY game with an awesome bard in it? The only remotely interesting (and the only real bardish) bard character in any game is Dandelion in The Witcher, and he's not playable. Most of the time they're reduced to casting support spells that other classes can too. I love playing bards in D&D but videogames? Nah.
The Amiga ports of the Bard's Tale games had decent music that played when you had a Bard PC play a song, with different tracks for each available song. :M
 

Grunker

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Are bards in this game?

By the way is there ANY game with an awesome bard in it? The only remotely interesting (and the only real bardish) bard character in any game is Dandelion in The Witcher, and he's not playable. Most of the time they're reduced to casting support spells that other classes can too. I love playing bards in D&D but videogames? Nah.

NWN2 bards are pretty OP.
 

Haplo

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Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire
Are bards in this game?

By the way is there ANY game with an awesome bard in it? The only remotely interesting (and the only real bardish) bard character in any game is Dandelion in The Witcher, and he's not playable. Most of the time they're reduced to casting support spells that other classes can too. I love playing bards in D&D but videogames? Nah.

Neverwinter Nights 1/2. One of the better classes. Not quite as much of a melee powerhouse as a Cleric and certainly far inferior spellcasting-wise to mages but still a great hybrid and one of my favorite classes. Curse Song cripples opponents while his own song provides strong buffs. Gets great buffs too, like Haste and Improved Invisibility. If you want armor (and you probably should), you struggle a bit with Arcane Spell Failure, but that can be solved.
Goes well with the Red Dragon Disciple Prestige class, but I propose to place the emphasis on Bard (take at least 16 levels) rather then on multiclass.

The NWN2 Bard is a bit different, but still not bad. And the epic level Song of Requiem just destroys.
 

Prime Junta

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One of the most stupidly OP builds in MotB is a bard/red dragon disciple. Dip into rogue and/or fighter for extra lulz.
 

Grunker

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Are bards in this game?

By the way is there ANY game with an awesome bard in it? The only remotely interesting (and the only real bardish) bard character in any game is Dandelion in The Witcher, and he's not playable. Most of the time they're reduced to casting support spells that other classes can too. I love playing bards in D&D but videogames? Nah.

NWN2 bards are pretty OP.


but i dont wanna play nw2

Understandable, but the question was whether there were games with awesome bards, not whether they were any good
 

Xeon

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I think Bard's Tale has a bard with singing and stuff, I only saw clips of it so not sure if its any good.
 

SophosTheWise

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Feb 19, 2013
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Are bards in this game?

By the way is there ANY game with an awesome bard in it? The only remotely interesting (and the only real bardish) bard character in any game is Dandelion in The Witcher, and he's not playable. Most of the time they're reduced to casting support spells that other classes can too. I love playing bards in D&D but videogames? Nah.
well what is supposed to do a bard in a videogame? I mean generally don't even mage have a deep and interesting spellcasting aspect.

I think the problem is that most systems in RPGs are very combat-focussed. I'd love to see more mechanics revolving around non-combat-skills.
 

Tacgnol

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Codex 2016 - The Age of Grimoire Grab the Codex by the pussy RPG Wokedex Strap Yourselves In Codex Year of the Donut Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag. Pathfinder: Wrath I helped put crap in Monomyth
The bard in our strange aeons campaign is incredibly useful.

Decent fighter, decent caster and pumps out useful buffs. Same with most 2/3 classes in Pathfinder.
 

Hobo Elf

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Are you allowed to make some beta videos on youtube or is there some kind of NDA? I'd like to see this game get the same treatment that BT4 got once the backer demo was released.
 

SophosTheWise

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The bard in our strange aeons campaign is incredibly useful.

Decent fighter, decent caster and pumps out useful buffs. Same with most 2/3 classes in Pathfinder.

Sure you can play a useful bard, that's not what I'm complaining about. My complaint is that most bards are never really... bard-ish. Bards are my favourite class to play in Pathfinder, but 90% of my gameplay consists of non-combat stuff. Abusing cantrips to build a reputation, becoming a famous storyteller and musician, solving riddles, hunting for stories... That's what a bard is about for me. Maybe there should be an RPG focused only on a bardic protagonist. No, I don't mean that awful Bard's Tale "remake"
 

ArchAngel

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Are you allowed to make some beta videos on youtube or is there some kind of NDA? I'd like to see this game get the same treatment that BT4 got once the backer demo was released.
There are already multiple Youtube Let's Plays available.
 

Hobo Elf

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Are you allowed to make some beta videos on youtube or is there some kind of NDA? I'd like to see this game get the same treatment that BT4 got once the backer demo was released.
There are already multiple Youtube Let's Plays available.
I'll only watch videos by Codexers. I don't want to watch some over produced youtuber trash.
 

Tacgnol

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Codex 2016 - The Age of Grimoire Grab the Codex by the pussy RPG Wokedex Strap Yourselves In Codex Year of the Donut Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag. Pathfinder: Wrath I helped put crap in Monomyth
Sure you can play a useful bard, that's not what I'm complaining about. My complaint is that most bards are never really... bard-ish. Bards are my favourite class to play in Pathfinder, but 90% of my gameplay consists of non-combat stuff. Abusing cantrips to build a reputation, becoming a famous storyteller and musician, solving riddles, hunting for stories... That's what a bard is about for me. Maybe there should be an RPG focused only on a bardic protagonist. No, I don't mean that awful Bard's Tale "remake"

That would probably be an interesting game.

But yes, I broadly agree about bards in CRPGs. It's pretty rare to have a game that focuses on the non-combat aspects of being a bard. Less of an issue in pen and paper due to the nature of most scenarios.
 

Hobo Elf

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Also on the topic of bards, kinda too late to experience it and probably not everyone's cup of tea (since it's an MMO), but Vanguard: Saga of Heroes had one of the best implementation of bards; at least I enjoyed the class immensely. It didn't have any set songs but you learned pieces of a song that had incremental buffs / debuffs that you could mix and match into your own songs (that you could also name). The more you added the heavier it would be for stamina consumption. It was a pretty powerful class in both PvE and PvP.
 

jml

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Unfortunately it seems that bards are simply rogues with spells.
Stratagemini;16315 said:
Instead of Versatile Performance, bards now get "Bard talents" like a rogue. because there is no Perform skill in the game.
 

sstacks

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Are you allowed to make some beta videos on youtube or is there some kind of NDA? I'd like to see this game get the same treatment that BT4 got once the backer demo was released.

Owlcat was surprisingly cool (even encouraging) about Let's Plays of the Alpha so Beta is fine :)
 

sstacks

Arcane
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The battle against the assassins in Swordlord Aldori's fortress concludes. Suspicion is cast on us despite our heroic efforts (basically, Tartuccio's a big fat jerkface). The companions choose teams. World travel map, an ambush, and the resting system.

 

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