Yeah, this particular detail has filtered a lot of people for me. Good to see you're on the ball, as always.Finally Nenio. [...] You're essentially talking to an autistic fox that turns out to be a robot.
I still maintain that the so-called "redemption" of the "redeemer queen" (who didn't actually atone for any of the immense evil she perpetrated, or sacrifice ANYTHING that didn't get immediately replaced with something better. Two of the most important parts of redemption) is one of the dumbest plot lines I've ever seen in the combined history of Pathfinder AND DnD.Nocticula ascends canonically and becomes the Redeemer Queen. The general tone of this change of heart is that she's had it all for so long she's come to see her own life as pointless. She's probably the most powerful and influential of the Demon Lords unless you count Lamashtu. The only way is up and side-ways a bit. So Nocticula becomes a chaotic-neutral god of artists, transgressors, and people trying to change their lives or turn a new leaf. This mirrors Runelord Sorshen, who more or less realizes that antedilluvian hyper-tyranny doesn't work in the modern age and has become very much over being the queen of lust, which is why Sorshen's country is a haven for Nocticula's new church.I was told that this part was actually a thing where Nocticula ascended.
So in that scene Ember is either working with something that was already there (Nocticula wanting to ascend and transmute her nature) or set the first spark of doubt. Or both. Either way she's just doing what Grandmother Crow wants more or less.
It's not really worth debating because at the end of the day - good or bad - the change is just not well estabilished. No changes in the pathfinder setting that aren't part of an adventure path are well estabilished. Taldor and it's policies change rapidly and that's the plotline of War for the Crown. So it's not out of the blue.I still maintain that the so-called "redemption" of the "redeemer queen" (who didn't actually atone for any of the immense evil she perpetrated, or sacrifice ANYTHING that didn't get immediately replaced with something better. Two of the most important parts of redemption) is one of the dumbest plot lines I've ever seen in the combined history of Pathfinder AND DnD.
It's not really worth debating because at the end of the day - good or bad - the change is just not well estabilished. No changes in the pathfinder setting that aren't part of an adventure path are well estabilished. Taldor and it's policies change rapidly and that's the plotline of War for the Crown. So it's not out of the blue.I still maintain that the so-called "redemption" of the "redeemer queen" (who didn't actually atone for any of the immense evil she perpetrated, or sacrifice ANYTHING that didn't get immediately replaced with something better. Two of the most important parts of redemption) is one of the dumbest plot lines I've ever seen in the combined history of Pathfinder AND DnD.
Nocticula's ascension is all based on hints. Hints that the queen of alushnyrra can absorb the power of other demon lords. That she is about to become a goddess. That she's going to abandon her city. That she's got a cult to that effect already. That maybe she's even turning a new leaf. So you're left with 'oh Noct was gonna be a deity anyways, she just decided not to be an asshole and planned accordingly'. Players are invited to insert a headcanon in that vaccuum. Owlcat decided that was some naive martyr-preacher called Ember.
Like I said the mileage varies with Ember. I'm okay with the concept. Literature is full of scenes where prophets surprise the tyrants with their simplicity. However, all that happens in the scene is that Ember cries for Nocticula because her life is vapid, and Noct seethes a bit because it totally isn't - she has everything. That's halfway to working. What you need is for Ember to say something that makes the succubus stumble a bit. Then I'd believe the seeds of redemption have been planted. Or, maybe, the game could have made one extra decision and somehow use both Ember and Arueshalae to give Noct ideas about redemption.
I mentioned Sorshen because that's a good contrast. Her change of heart is well estabilished, right? You have two runelord adventures where Sorshen helps the players put down her peers who are still into antedilluvian mage tyranny. You might think it's because she doesn't want competition, but she doesn't make any moves to resurrect her ancient realm such as it was. We don't see her growth on screen, but at least the character we meet is already a different person.
You can argue wether Sorshen grew tired of her old life, or wether she made a calculated move to adapt to today's world. Which leaves me to one last possibility. There seem to be hints in Golarion's cosmology that gods don't just ascend because they are really powerful, they do so because they are filling a new role in the pantheon. Just as Sorshen, Nocticula wanting to become the patron god of redemption could have been (amongst other things) a conscious choice. If Desna can do it with Arueshalae, why can't the queen of the succubi do the same? It would be like temptation, only reversed.
Apparently she ran a whole cult for redeeming evildoers from behind the scenes. Keyword, behind the scenes. We actively do not know anything else about Nocticula's ascension.Nocticula gave up NOTHING (she only gained power)
AGAIN.Apparently she ran a whole cult for redeeming evildoers from behind the scenes. Keyword, behind the scenes. We actively do not know anything else about Nocticula's ascension.Nocticula gave up NOTHING (she only gained power)
Arue transitioned to chaotic good. Nocticula transitioned to chaotic neutral, she's not good, just a non-evil artfag. "Redeemer Queen" is just obnoxious posturing/branding.Because Arueshalae actively atoned for her misdeeds. She also gave up her natural powers and didn't recieve anything in return (other than the ability to touch people without fucking them over). Nocticula gave up NOTHING (she only gained power), and didn't even attempt to atone for the bullshit and chips she was up too. Nocticula is a karma Houdini, not a case of someone who redeemed herself.
It's shit. Pure, fucking, shit.
As for hints or any other bullshit you think explains this travesty, it doesn't matter because the end result is such stupidity it boggles my mind how even the dumbest of fucktards could even remotely think it's good.
Ascension isn't about self sacrifice. It's about power. Nethys didn't sacrifice anything to become the wizard god, he was just a really good wizard. If the demigod Nocticula actively runs a cult for CN/CG and accrues enough power to become a god, then she can choose to be the queen of artists as soon as she abandons the abyss. No god has to beg for their natures or for redemption, they simply are what they are, and become unto wherever they stand in the cosmic alignment charter.AGAIN.
Doesn't.....fucking.....matter.
So by your logic it's ok to rape pillage and murder for millennia and face no consequences by going "meh, let's do something else now". Hell, you just said it's REWARD worthy.Ascension isn't about self sacrifice. It's about power. Nethys didn't sacrifice anything to become the wizard god, he was just a really good wizard. If the demigod Nocticula actively runs a cult for CN/CG and accrues enough power to become a god, then she can choose to be the queen of artists as soon as she abandons the abyss. No god has to beg for their natures or for redemption, they simply are what they are, and become unto wherever they stand in the cosmic alignment charter.AGAIN.
Doesn't.....fucking.....matter.
The short of it is that Heaven probably disagrees. Elysium probably doesn't care as long as the result is positive. Hell only hates that the succubus queen went from one form of chaos to another. Maelstrom is whatever goes. And so on. It's down to what the realms stand for and what the individual deities want.So by your logic it's ok to rape pillage and murder for millennia and face no consequences
More or less thisSeelah - Paladins without the zealotry isn't subversive, just boring.
Ember - Twee and saccharine "cute" kid. Her questline seems weird in a setting where good and evil are supposed to be these unchanging metaphysical forces perpetually in conflict, really just seems here to highlight how dumb the setting is.
Nenio - Quirky, socially retarded neurodivergent, I sleep.
Arue - cringe waifubait
Wenduag - cringe waifubait
CamCam - I'll applaud any attempt to push players out of the neutral good comfort zone, but her personality is just insipid and uninteresting.
Understandable Chaotic Evil actions~AGAIN.Apparently she ran a whole cult for redeeming evildoers from behind the scenes. Keyword, behind the scenes. We actively do not know anything else about Nocticula's ascension.Nocticula gave up NOTHING (she only gained power)
Doesn't.....fucking.....matter.
Oh, and if you're trying to imply that it was the cult of the redeemer that was her atonement, LET ME REMIND YOU that she was giving powers to both them AND her standard followers at the time.
Telling someone to go give a little girl a candy cane and then having someone else kill and skullfuck the little girl is NOT redemption....I don't even know what to call that kind of insanity.
I think Daeran, Woljif and Regill take the cake. But Lann and Sosiel felt like wet blankets too. Greybor is underused and understated, unless he's interacting with Regill and Woljif. The girls are fine, what matters is wether these characters play off of each other.
Camellia is a genuinely bold addition to the genre. She's an evil monster who bullshits to your face, the responsibility of thinking she was redeemable in any way is on you, the player who thought with your dick. I applaud the devs for being so cheeky. It's always a delight to see what new ways Camellia will devise to be a cunt towards everybody else, wether she'll be subtle about it or bring out her she-demon's claws.
YM(will)V with Ember. She's a preacher chosen by an archon of heaven to bring hope to the crusaders and to turn demons away from the abyss with the sheer power of ridiculous naivety. She's also a bridge towards Nocticula's eventual ascension. Ember is boring on her own, but she interacts well with the other companions. Daeran is an asshole to most people, but Ember makes him act genuinely nice. Woljif's teen-esque mask of self reliance similarly melts around her. Interesting to note Camellia is an absolute cunt to her anyways. Reminder that Ember can convert demons. Again, fuck Camellia is a good evil character.
Seelah is actually a rather important and vital character as far as the plot is concerned. She's a paladin of Iomedae, but she's not a local. She hasn't grown jaded like all the others. Which means that Seelah is the only paladin in the crusade who hasn't betrayed the goddess' first commands. This synergizes especially well with the Angel story. The way I see it Seelah's personality is also good when contrasting with others. She's a laidback person who isn't a massive cunt (like paladins are supposed to be I guess), but she's still stern enough towards Woljif's thieving for an instance.
Wenduag is a hammy character and an entertaining one. Even if you choose Lann, her death afterwards show her insane personality. Wenduag is all about dominance and the need for it. To be at the top, or to gain serving whoever is. The archetypical 'evil man's dragon', only you have to prove it to her that you're the big boss. Wenduag pairs perfectly with the Demon playthrough as the concubine of whatever shape of Demon Lord you end up taking.
Arueshalae has her fans. She's a very straightforward romantic story that was especially tailored for Azatas. She's in search of her redemption and soon becomes convinced that you must be it. Again, I think Arueshalae is at her best when interacting with others. Only instead of Regill and Greybor talking about how she's a fake and should be killed, Arue has a history with the setting and suddenly become the 'Formerly Most Interesting Woman In The World' when you get to Alushnyrra. She has her moments but I didn't care for her companion interactions.
The most hilarious part of her are the bizarre projected insecurities from some players. Bro, it's a videogame. Summoning a succubus to have sex with is the oldest nerd sex fantasy there is. Arue is just that is anime form. And here you are going 'whores whores whores'.
Finally Nenio. If I had a penny for every thread I've seen of people asking stating that the comic relief character 'is actually dumb' and 'that's not how science works', I'd have 7. You're essentially talking to an autistic fox that turns out to be a robot. I didn't use Nenio a lot since I was a Wizard myself, so I don't know much about her. That said, some of Nenio's interactions were fine. A little sideshow.
Is it?How curious that the subversive aspect is exclusively centred on the female characters in the game.
Wenduag on the other hand is Chaotic Evil played straight. She is someone obsessed with power and domination, and shall yield to authority on those terms.
All that said, from my observations of the wider normie fan community of Wrathfinder the most liked seem to be Arue and Ember.
If you can't hold her respect she'll betray you, yes.And that's why she betrays you
oh god oh nothey act unpleasant
True, which doesn't change my point. If anything, Daeran is a much bigger subversion of neutral evil than any of the girls. And a pleasant one at that.By the way, Daeran is not chaotic, he is neutral.
Of the female ones, duh. It was my observation that the community likes Arueshalae and Ember, while Camelia and Wenduag have very dedicated fans.Wrong.
If you can't hold her respect she'll betray you, yes.
I don't, I generally end up killing her because it's what makes sense for the characters I play. And that's despite the fact that I like Lann even less.If you like her, just say that you like her. There's no point in deflecting.