Pathfinder Pathfinder: Wrath of the Righteous Beta Thread [GAME RELEASED, GO TO NEW THREAD]

[Desiderius]

I’m telling you, this writing will turn some shit around. It’s what great literature is for.

 

[InD_ImaginE]

Regill seems to be amazing!

His next line was also a gem:

Spoiler

View attachment 15222
"DYEL, Shelyn?"

You know at least up to Chapter 3, this interaction and the whole Sosiel questlines will probably about Sosiel growing up. He is a naive, insecure brat. But by the end of the quest chain, he understands that no, what he is fed through Shellyn teachings are not enough and reflective of the real world. This alone makes him far more interesting than Reggil which is, once again one-note and flat. His character is only "I AM HELLKNIGHT FELLA" and nothing more to it. Now you can like him for being Garry Sue of the game but it doesn't make him any more interesting than a piece of bread.

He and Lann currently is a bottom feeder without anything connecting them to the rest of the picture beside the faction they are in (Mongrel and HK).

The only thing worse than both is probably Arue, which while have interesting concept, is not well executed at all.

 

[Desiderius]

I AM HELLKNIGHT FELLA

Eastwood made a career out of it. In the context of a time literally drained of it's testosterone that one note may be enough if they can keep everyone else riffing off of it as skillfully as they have to this point.

Every one of his lines though is another shovel load of bullshit cleaned out of the Augean Stables of Wokelism and the Poz and limpdick Christianity.

 

[Lawntoilet]

This alone makes him far more interesting than Reggil which is, once again one-note and flat. His character is only "I AM HELLKNIGHT FELLA" and nothing more to it. Now you can like him for being Garry Sue of the game but it doesn't make him any more interesting than a piece of bread.

He and Lann currently is a bottom feeder without anything connecting them to the rest of the picture beside the faction they are in (Mongrel and HK).

If the singular note and the faction are interesting and appealing, then a character who hits that note consistently and represents the interesting part of the faction is a good character.
He's also hardly a "Gary Sue," most of your companions don't like him, he acquiesces to you when you disagree with him, and he's not portrayed as being infallible or always correct.
Interesting that you don't like him or Lann when they're the characters who have the most similar perspectives to one another, though.

 

[InD_ImaginE]

Interesting that you don't like him or Lann when they're the characters who have the most similar perspectives to one another, though.

The problem with both is that they both are nothing but a representation of a faction. I guess I am not making myself clear: as far as character goes, he is a well-written Hellknights, has decent interaction etc, but he is a bore. He is Gary Sue o the player I guess. I am not sure what is the term. He is portrayed as always the superior guy and having the last word and I understand why people may like his edgy verbal beatdown.

The problem with him (and Lann) is the lack of characterization beyond that.

His character is nothing but Hellknights:

1. Why does he join the Crusade? Because he is a Hellknights and he is ordered to do so.

2. What is his characterization about? Being a Hellknight. As far as depiction goes he is actually sensible and a good depiction of LE Hellkngihts instead of whatever shit was in PfK. But there is nothing really else about him.

3. What is his character's strength? .... being a sensible Hellknights which is up to par to his position in the game and considering he is not Order of the Rack

4. What is his character's weakness? ... anything that you would associate with a Hellknights. And up to this point, there are no "weaknesses" shown in the game. The Crusaders being inept idealists have consequences that are shown in the game. There is no such thing for Hellknights (besides getting stupidly wiped by Gargoyles if you don't feel like saving him I guess). And once again, these weaknesses are written based on other say so instead of being shown in the game.

5. Does he interact meaningfully with the cast? Only to show how superior Hellknights is.

6. Does he has anything else for him (at least up to Chapter 3 now) besides being a good HK on join ops with the Crusade? None at all.

He as a character now is just a symbol of how AWESOME Hellknight is. You can replace him a an NPC representative (like Irabeth representing Crusader, at least Kanaberes one) and the plot beat won't change. You at this point can replace him with other Pralector and you probably won't feel anything because he doesn't have any characterization beyond being a HK.

Lann suffers this to be a lesser degree. He is all about being a Mongrelman and being free of his contained live in the cave. Now Chapter 3 has yet to trigger his quest for me so I am withholding judgement, but Regil already has his (the HK Test) and it doesn't deliver anything else about him.

Unless you are invested in being "WHOA HELLKNIGHTS IS SO COOL MAN" and like them to begin with (or think HK is cool and edgy) then there is really nothing else about Reggil.

 

[LannTheStupid]

Being a superior Marine is a goal in itself.
Being a superior viet cong guerilla fighter with a dozen of dog tags around his neck is a goal in itself.
Being a superiod pilot with 50 kills on the fuselage is a goal in itself.
Being a superior poisoner with 2 stealth kills in a foreign country while surrounded by enemies is a goal in itself.
Being a Hellknight who fights demons efficiently is a goal in itself as well.

Regill is a military. That's enough. And, being a gnome, he has no home to return to - only Bleaching.

 

[InD_ImaginE]

Being a Hellknight who fights demons efficiently is a goal in itself as well.

I am not sure what you are getting confused about here.

I am not saying he is bad, it is just he is boring as far as a character in fiction goes. He is one dimensional, has a personality defined only by his job, and so far has no conflict or plot hook whatsoever connected to the main story besides his job. There are 3 other Perlactor in the story (so far only appearing during their introduction and his quest) but if any 3 of them to join you instead their role will probably be similar enough. Of course, different orders might have different tenets. but it's not that him being a Godclaw plays into anything right now. The only thing you can infer that the Crusade meaning is rather high to him (and probably due to him being a Godclaw) is the fact that he considers the Crusade to be the most important battle of their time.

EDIT: You know who else is 1 dimensional and has personality defined by his job? Sosiel! At least until his plot kicks in during his quest in chapter 3 and he learn to grow up. The other difference is Sosial 1-dimensional ness ofc is viewed negatively in the Codex due to differing view.

 

[LannTheStupid]

Well, perceiving something as "boring" is subjective by definition, so there is nothing to argue about.

What I really dislike is that stories of simple one-dimensional goal-oriented characters - who actually are able to achieve almost anything they pursue - are more and more considered boring both in art and in real life. When our vogue, complicated and sensitive souls will become shadows on concrete I hope to have a smidgen of time to thank some one-dimensional submarine captain for that.

 

[Lawntoilet]

The problem with both is that they both are nothing but a representation of a faction.

Lann isn't. His chief straight-up says to you and to Lann, "Lann is not one of us and do not take him as representative of us." He's no more representative of them than Wenduag.
Regill is so far, sure, although there's also the angle of him being Bleached and knowing that he's dying. I could maybe get on board if you said he was a shallow character, that doesn't automatically make him a boring one. If nothing else, his writing is good enough that he's consistently interesting to read, even if he doesn't say anything unexpected. Desiderius made a good comparison with Clint Eastwood characters.

I guess I am not making myself clear: as far as character goes, he is a well-written Hellknights, has decent interaction etc, but he is a bore. He is Gary Sue o the player I guess. I am not sure what is the term. He is portrayed as always the superior guy

"Gary Sue" is a term but it doesn't apply here. He's also not portrayed as superior, your companions' complaints about him are fair complaints from a moral standpoint. Whether or not you think he is "superior" depends very much on how ruthless you are willing to be in pursuit of the crusade. He is perhaps "superior" in a rational sense but you can understand why some of your other companions and advisors have problems with him.

Lann suffers this to be a lesser degree. He is all about being a Mongrelman and being free of his contained live in the cave.

He is "all about being free of his contained life in the cave" because he isn't "all about being a mongrelman." I mean obviously he compares things on the surface to how they were underground, but that's hardly the same thing.

He is one dimensional, has a personality defined only by his job, and so far has no conflict or plot hook whatsoever connected to the main story besides his job.
EDIT: You know who else is 1 dimensional and has personality defined by his job? Sosiel! At least until his plot kicks in during his quest in chapter 3 and he learn to grow up. The other difference is Sosial 1-dimensional ness ofc is viewed negatively in the Codex due to differing view.

Being a one-dimensional character and having a personality defined only by their job does not necessarily make them a bad character. Sherlock Holmes and Dracula fit that description and they're certainly memorable.
The fact that Regill and Sosiel both fit that description (they don't really though, Sosiel's conflict about his brother is mentioned quite early, and gives him more dimension right off the bat) just means that these characters can be more-interesting or less-interesting based on the concept of how compelling is the one dimension that they have, and the execution of how well-written that dimension is. Regill's is just generally more interesting to read and better-written.
Incidentally, I actually do like Sosiel more now that his quest is progressing, which is good.

 

[InD_ImaginE]

Regill is so far, sure, although there's also the angle of him being Bleached and knowing that he's dying.

The problem: he doesn't care as per his dialogue. This is also something I am expecting initially seeing his character concept, the juxtaposition of a LE Hellknights Gnome. But clearly we can't have the personification of Hellknights having more than 1 dimension.

I could maybe get on board if you said he was a shallow character, that doesn't automatically make him a boring one. If nothing else, his writing is good enough that he's consistently interesting to read, even if he doesn't say anything unexpected. Desiderius made a good comparison with Clint Eastwood characters.

I guess this is the problem with defining what is "interesting" to you. While I can agree that the delivery of his character is good enough, it still doesn't make him interesting because he is one-note. What's the point of seeing his reaction if you can see it from miles away? And as I said, this makes him a non-character because he might be a nameless NPC it won't change anything as his character is just Hellkngihts Code personified. As a counterexample of some sort, Arue is an interesting character with currently bad delivery and execution, compared to Reggil's banal but decently executed one.

Like Clint Eastwood, Reggil is not interesting but people buy the concept of what he represented to be "cool". As I said, if you don't find the whole Hellknights schticks (or Clint Eastwood) character to be good then you won't find anything in watching Clint Eastwood movie/Reggil.

He is "all about being free of his contained life in the cave" because he isn't "all about being a mongrelman." I mean obviously he compares things on the surface to how they were underground, but that's hardly the same thing.

Fair enough. Besides the prologue there has yet to be any development for him. Maybe I can judge better after his Ch 3 quest.

Being a one-dimensional character and having a personality defined only by their job does not necessarily make them a bad character.

As I said, he is well executed but he is boring. There is nothing much to his character. You see his schtick once, there is no reason to see it again because you know what you are getting.

(they don't really though, Sosiel's conflict about his brother is mentioned quite early, and gives him more dimension right off the bat)

This is outside - inside character quest problem that PfK and WoR have. While in-character quest Sosiel character's is about his brother and his naivety/world-view, outside of it he is a stereotypical good Cleric of Shellyn. His character's quest (which admittedly started as early as when you get him) gives him more dimension and makes him more interesting as a character.

Reggil on the other hand.. doesn't do that. He is written the same outside-inside his character arc. He stays one-note through 2 chapters that you have him.

how compelling is the one dimension that they have, and the execution of how well-written that dimension is.

This is my point as well, at least the earlier half. If you are not sold on 1-dimensional Hellkngihts then Reggil is banal altho he might be well executed. Can there be worse? Of course, you can make a banal concept and even worse execution like the self0insert Hellkngihts in PfK.

 

[fantadomat]

Being a superior Marine is a goal in itself.
Being a superior viet cong guerilla fighter with a dozen of dog tags around his neck is a goal in itself.
Being a superiod pilot with 50 kills on the fuselage is a goal in itself.
Being a superior poisoner with 2 stealth kills in a foreign country while surrounded by enemies is a goal in itself.
Being a Hellknight who fights demons efficiently is a goal in itself as well.

Regill is a military. That's enough. And, being a gnome, he has no home to return to - only Bleaching.

He is pretty much grey warden charging the deep roads. Fuck,how much i want game in that setting!

 

[Nerevar]

So do we have something we can download and play with yet? I've not even logged into the backer portal yet.

 

[guestposting]

I imagine Regill will have a lot of inner conflict if you can achieve superior results for the crusade by being a goody-goody or chaotic leader.

 

[Cyberarmy]

So do we have something we can download and play with yet? I've not even logged into the backer portal yet.

First 3 act is mostly playable. There are some placeholders still but not that disturbing.

Can someone who's played as Lich indulge my curiosity about the undead companions? Can you kill and raise people other than your traitorous companions? Do they still have a personality and storyline after raised, or are they essentially undead mercenaries? And how does it work, do they keep their class, gain xp and level up like normal companions?

You can raise and use people alright. Not the main companions but other characters from the story can be raised as party member.Yes they retain most of their personality and participate in dialogs.

 

[razvedchiki]

So how is the generally difficulty of the game?
Saw that there is one option of additionally monster spanwing, those are harder versions of the regular ones?

 

[Lawntoilet]

The problem: he doesn't care as per his dialogue.

But having such a clear purpose that you are able to cope with the fact that you are dying is interesting. It not only differentiates him from Jubilost but makes him quite atypical for a gnome. It's also a perspective that most players are unlikely to have, which also makes it interesting to see.

I guess this is the problem with defining what is "interesting" to you....
As I said, he is well executed but he is boring. There is nothing much to his character. You see his schtick once, there is no reason to see it again because you know what you are getting.

I guess it is, because I am interested to read his dialogue which is why I don't agree that he is "boring" even though he is fairly one-dimensional. Again, I don't think Sherlock Holmes is boring to read about even if I can more or less predict his perspective on a situation, the type of thing he will say, and the type of action he will take.
The fact that Regill is well-written and that he has a perspective that is pretty unique among your companions is what makes him interesting to me, he doesn't have to be unpredictable for that. You keep saying "it's boring if you find it boring" which is a non-starter but I'll accept it, then you also keep using "boring" like it's objective.

This is outside - inside character quest problem that PfK and WoR have. While in-character quest Sosiel character's is about his brother and his naivety/world-view, outside of it he is a stereotypical good Cleric of Shellyn.

I don't really know what you mean by this, but his bond with his brother is a big part of his personality which is apparent right from the start.

His character's quest (which admittedly started as early as when you get him) gives him more dimension and makes him more interesting as a character.

It does, that's exactly what I said. But it's not a prerequisite for being an interesting character, either.

If you don't find Hellknights interesting you won't find Regill interesting

Regill is what sold me on them in the first place in this game.

 

[Desiderius]

He’s concerned (rightfully) with how everybody wants to be LE, both because conformity is Poz and because evil in fact sux.

But God created evil for a reason and high on that list is probably kicking the ass of those who consider themselves good without earning it. Likewise we haven’t seen the back end of Regill’s quest yet so we haven’t seen the inevitable consequences of his choices, which is where the interest is regarding those who choose evil.

 

[InD_ImaginE]

I guess it is, because I am interested to read his dialogue which is why I don't agree that he is "boring" even though he is fairly one-dimensional. Again, I don't think Sherlock Holmes is boring to read about even if I can more or less predict his perspective on a situation, the type of thing he will say, and the type of action he will take.
The fact that Regill is well-written and that he has a perspective that is pretty unique among your companions is what makes him interesting to me, he doesn't have to be unpredictable for that. You keep saying "it's boring if you find it boring" which is a non-starter but I'll accept it, then you also keep using "boring" like it's objective.

The problem is, Sherlock Holmes is not really a character-driven plot, unlike what companion is in a video game. The meat of their content is about what they are as a character and what actions they will do.

He is as currently written is just a personification of Hellknights code, there is nothing more to his character than that. I guess it boils down to concept vs execution. You find him interesting due to execution regardless of his 1-dimensional concept. I find him boring regardless of execution due to his concept.

I don't really know what you mean by this, but his bond with his brother is a big part of his personality which is apparent right from the start.

To explain it better: Sosiel, when he interacts with the main story (when you bring him in the party doing quests) or when he appears to be relevant during the main story (I think only on the bugs demon area to Drezden?) is never about his brother. His character as apparent in the main story beat is about being a stereotypical Good Cleric (with sprinkles of the beauty inside as per Shellyn). His hatred of Hellknights is something to be expected as part of being a stereotypical good cleric. He never gushes about his brother this his brother that on non-character quest interaction. It is only if you decide to work on his character quest that his brother complex becomes a thing and is self-contained within his personal quests. In that case, dimension is added to him as you learn about his world view. He changes from "goody-two-shoes naive cleric" to something more. It makes his character concept interesting because suddenly you have a narrative hook on "how will this guy grow?" instead of just being a 1-dimensional Cleric.

This is the same thing with PfK that changes and information of characters that are in their personal quest don't really reflect to the main game, at least not until much later (e.g. in PfK it is only apparent in THatoT, interaction on the main story before that is pretty neutral vs progress in companion quests).

Reflecting on PfK and the rest of WoR this is also what's done with other characters. The character personal quests are there to either expand already interesting concepts, or to expand on basic ones, and making a seemingly banal character concept into an interesting one.

Reggil... doesn't do that. His personal quest is about... him being a Hellknights. At this point, you have a character that for 2 chapters + personal quest stay the exact same 1-dimensional concept. There is 0 progression. There is 0 conflict. There is no plot hook. For a character-driven content, the writer manages to double down on him just being a Hellknights and nothing more. Now yes, it is entirely possible that Owlcat will work on it on later chapter, late bloomer and all but as he currently is there is really nothing going on for him except "Hellkinghts is cool wow."

Compare this to Greybor. His personal quest is just about you hunting a dragon and then hiring him (or not). His character is not expanded upon yet, but the game gives an interesting point in terms of plot-hook: Who is his employer? Why dies that same employer that up until now hired Greybor for killing cultists and demons want you dead? This is for a character that only joined in 3rd chapter and a mercenary at that. Greybor has much much less time to establish himself (he has pretty minor interaction in Tower of Ch 1, yes I know, but he doesn't really do anything there. And it is entirely missable that you won't know him until end of Ch2) and has managed to be more interesting than Reggil.

Regill is what sold me on them in the first place in this game.

Then arguably you will be sold on them regardless because Reggil is the personification of an idea instead of a character.

 

[Lawntoilet]

The problem is, Sherlock Holmes is not really a character-driven plot, unlike what companion is in a video game. The meat of their content is about what they are as a character and what actions they will do.

That doesn't change whether or not Holmes himself is actually interesting, though. The stories would not be as interesting to read if Holmes' character was less interesting in concept and execution.

To explain it better: Sosiel, when he interacts with the main story (when you bring him in the party doing quests) or when he appears to be relevant during the main story (I think only on the bugs demon area to Drezden?) is never about his brother. His character as apparent in the main story beat is about being a stereotypical Good Cleric (with sprinkles of the beauty inside as per Shellyn). His hatred of Hellknights is something to be expected as part of being a stereotypical good cleric. He never gushes about his brother this his brother that on non-character quest interaction.

It comes up during the main quest at the Lost Chapel, there is the whole thing with the Hellknight who knew his brother.

Then arguably you will be sold on them regardless because Reggil is the personification of an idea instead of a character.

He is a well-written and well-executed character who represents the Hellknight faction, so yes, given that stipulation, I would find the faction interesting. That distinction makes all the difference though, the Hellknights in Kingmaker were conceptually the same organization basically, they did not have interesting representatives, and consequently I was not sold on them (I found them irritating and hateable in fact).
I don't even find him interesting so much because I find the Hellknights super-interesting, what's more interesting to me is how dedicated he is to their ideals and the way that he presents his perspective.

EDIT: Greybor's personal quest has more questions surrounding it which makes it intriguing, but that doesn't actually have anything to do with how interesting his character is to interact with.

 

[InD_ImaginE]

It comes up during the main quest at the Lost Chapel, there is the whole thing with the Hellknight who knew his brother.

Does it come up if you ignore his personal quest? This, honestly is not something that I've tried. I always think the trigger happens because, well it is his part of his personal quest (and it is because of his interaction with Reggil there is just a setup for his personal quest). It is like Harrim - Trobold situation where there is a slight intersects which is pretty much self-contained besides being the location of the setup.

That doesn't change whether or not Holmes himself is actually interesting, though. The stories would not be as interesting to read if Holmes' character was less interesting in concept and execution.

It is significantly different. A plot-driven and character driven story are naturally different in execution. Companion in video games, especially as it is done in both PfK and WoR, are purely character-driven. A character driven story where the main star of the show is 1 dimensional with 0 progress, 0 develoment, and 0 conflict is really not interesting at all. But I disgress, let's just agree to disagree.

He is a well-written and well-executed character who represents the Hellknight faction, so yes, given that stipulation, I would find the faction interesting. That distinction makes all the difference though, the Hellknights in Kingmaker were conceptually the same organization basically, they did not have interesting representatives, and consequently I was not sold on them (I found them irritating and hateable in fact).

Argueably, the Hellknights in Kingmaker is not really representative of Hellknights at all, unless you are talking about very specific orders (Rack, mostly).

 

[Heroic Liberator]

Argueably, the Hellknights in Kingmaker is not really representative of Hellknights at all, unless you are talking about very specific orders (Rack, mostly).

Care to elaborate? (Asking out of lore curiosity, not doubt.)

 

[Shinros]

I imagine Regill will have a lot of inner conflict if you can achieve superior results for the crusade by being a goody-goody or chaotic leader.

I'm quite sure someone posted leaks to his reaction of trickster in this thread. Unless my memory is failing me. The only one he seems to hate outright is swarm (everyone hates swarm) or demon.

Spoiler

He doesn't like it, but you're getting results so he's fine with it.

 

[Lawntoilet]

Does it come up if you ignore his personal quest?

Don't know, I've never ignored it either.

It is significantly different. A plot-driven and character driven story are naturally different in execution... But I disgress, let's just agree to disagree.

Of course they are, but both kinds of stories can still have interesting characters, who would be interesting in either kind of story. As far as game characters go, I consider them interesting based on if their interactions are interesting, not based on the plot of their personal quest (although ideally that is also interesting of course).
We are just talking in circles at this point though so sure.

Argueably, the Hellknights in Kingmaker is not really representative of Hellknights at all, unless you are talking about very specific orders (Rack, mostly).

They were representative to me since that was all I knew about them. I didn't expect to like them in WotR but like I said Regill sold me on them.

 

[Sarathiour]

He’s concerned (rightfully) with how everybody wants to be LE, both because conformity is Poz and because evil in fact sux.

But God created evil for a reason and high on that list is probably kicking the ass of those who consider themselves good without earning it. Likewise we haven’t seen the back end of Regill’s quest yet so we haven’t seen the inevitable consequences of his choices, which is where the interest is regarding those who choose evil.

Same alignment quadrant can harbor different philosophy.
Recurrent thematic thematic of lawful evil is "the end justify the means", which will probably be the defining trait of Regill. He's not evil for the sake of it, but because he does not believe or have little faith in the value of let's say, compassion or mercy, and saw them as a tactical error.

It obviously have nothing to do with the archetype of the greedy merchant who bend the rule for hiw own gain.

 

[Lawntoilet]

It obviously have nothing to do with the archetype of the greedy merchant who bend the rule for hiw own gain.

Of course not, Regill is a Pathfinder gnome, you're talking about Arcanum gnomes: