Pathfinder Pathfinder: Wrath of the Righteous - Enhanced Edition - now with A Dance of Masks epilogue DLC

[Desiderius]

That’s it. Dude got pissed and reported me evidently, then no warning, no personal message, just permanent ban.

Steam forums are a notorious cesspit of human filth when it comes to mods. I came here from the Dark Souls ones, and I can tell you they have the exact same issues.

Some dude asked me a question on a two-year-old thread (P:K maybe?) and I saw it because I was on the Old World forum. I answered it and some other guy showed up to gratuitously slam me personally. Mod was cool about it when he reported me so who knows.

It was the Owlcat guy that got me banned from Steam forum because it happened same day as Owlcat ban.

 

[Yosharian]

Alright so I tested UR and it doesn't persist past the end of a combat round. I guess it was fixed.

Soooo they stealth changed Dimensional Ride so that it doesn't work in Threshold anymore. Bastards. But noooo can't fix Mighty Charge, that has to be left in its current state while they fix the fun stuff

 

[LannTheStupid]

Desiderius So I have checked the missed feature of the Hunter. Basically, I did what a QA support person would have done, but without the special tools that Owlcat's specialists ought to have. Took me about 2 hours; an Owlcat's tester should have done it faster, but maybe not less than in an hour.

The culprit is this:

This is the description of Precise Companion from D20:

This is the description in the game:

The game works as described in the game, not as described in the rulebook. The Hunter can take Outflank, but cannot pass it to the animal companion.

And now my conclusion.

Is it a bug? No, it is not. The game works exactly as described in the game.

Is it a missing feature? Yes, it is. The class implementation in the game is missing one feature from the rulebook.

Does it ruin the Hunter as a class? No, because: a) Precise Shot is granted as in the game description and in the book, so ranged hunters are OK; b) 2 melee hunters can use this feature together; however, the front line becomes crowded with 4 bodies.

Does it make the class weaker than it should have been by the printed rules? Yes, it does.

Do I want this feature to be implemented? Probably, but it depends on the costs involved. For me it's OK to know that there is no way to use Outflank from the level 2 without another melee hunter.

Unfortunately, all of it confirms my previous bias. As with Kingmaker, most of those who cry about "bugs" do not understand what bugs actually are, and, thus, make the impression that the game is full of programming errors. Not the errors of understanding and interpretation.

 

[Lambach]

IIRC someone in this thread linked a Mod that lets you skip (most of?) The Enigma. Any chance to repost that link?

That place is such a goddamn tedious chore it's unreal. Stupidly easy trash combat encounters copy-pasted several dozen times all over the place, blue/green stone bullshit you need to do over and over again in order to advance, area size that's way too large for the amount of brain-dead combat it has, etc. No way in hell will I subject myself to this torture ever again with my other characters if there's no way to cheat through the thing. Fuck the extra Nahyndrian Crystal and fuck Nenio, they're just not worth it.

 

[Desiderius]

Desiderius So I have checked the missed feature of the Hunter. Basically, I did what a QA support person would have done, but without the special tools that Owlcat's specialists ought to have. Took me about 2 hours; an Owlcat's tester should have done it faster, but maybe not less than in an hour.

The culprit is this:

This is the description of Precise Companion from D20:View attachment 28689

This is the description in the game:View attachment 28690

The game works as described in the game, not as described in the rulebook. The Hunter can take Outflank, but cannot pass it to the animal companion.

And now my conclusion.

Is it a bug? No, it is not. The game works exactly as described in the game.

Is it a missing feature? Yes, it is. The class implementation in the game is missing one feature from the rulebook.

Does it ruin the Hunter as a class? No, because: a) Precise Shot is granted as in the game description and in the book, so ranged hunters are OK; b) 2 melee hunters can use this feature together; however, the front line becomes crowded with 4 bodies.

Does it make the class weaker than it should have been by the printed rules? Yes, it does.

Do I want this feature to be implemented? Probably, but it depends on the costs involved. For me it's OK to know that there is no way to use Outflank from the level 2 without another melee hunter.

Unfortunately, all of it confirms my previous bias. As with Kingmaker, most of those who cry about "bugs" do not understand what bugs actually are, and, thus, make the impression that the game is full of programming errors. Not the errors of understanding and interpretation.

I went to excruciating length to describe exactly why Hunter is not ok the way it’s implemented. The ability is called Precise Companion. It doesn’t give the Companion any abilities. It is not in fact working as advertised. If they wanted to make that change (almost certainly for ease of programming without thinking thru or understanding at all what effect that would have on how the class plays out) they should have changed the name of that ability.

Now you have skillfully sidetracked the discussion onto an issue where you have an argument that is at least plausible even if its pathetically weak for anyone who’s played the class in PnP or CotW.

I did report that once via bug reporting (it is a bug even if only the name) but that’s just one thing out of maybe fifty. The other forty-nine are things like Burnout turning on if you have any Burn at all on Elemental Engine and Winter Witch unpreventable damage turning off metamagic and the mandatory Bull Rush on Cav that doubly sucks because Bull Rush is still broken and triggers AoOs against your team.

Those are just in the last month. Every time I play the game new ones keep popping up. You’re digging yourself an ever-deeper hole by dishonestly portraying someone trying to help you get your game into playable shape as just a would-be dev upset about Owlcat judgment calls.

 

[Acrux]

IIRC someone in this thread linked a Mod that lets you skip (most of?) The Enigma. Any chance to repost that link?

That place is such a goddamn tedious chore it's unreal. Stupidly easy trash combat encounters copy-pasted several dozen times all over the place, blue/green stone bullshit you need to do over and over again in order to advance, area size that's way too large for the amount of brain-dead combat it has, etc. No way in hell will I subject myself to this torture ever again with my other characters if there's no way to cheat through the thing. Fuck the extra Nahyndrian Crystal and fuck Nenio, they're just not worth it.

Are you thinking of this one?

https://www.nexusmods.com/pathfinderwrathoftherighteous/mods/246

Puzzle Skip
Mod for Pathfinder: Wrath of the Righteous. Allows skipping puzzles.

Content

• Conundrum Unsolved
  • Solve slab puzzle by looting the slabs, interacting with the puzzle, and closing the puzzle window
• Core of the Riddle
  • Solve slab puzzle by entering Core of the Riddle with the cyan slabs (found at Ravaged Long House)
• Legacy of the Ancients
  • Solve slab puzzle by entering Legacy of the Ancients with the purple slabs (found at Place of Execution)
• Final Veil
  • Solve slab puzzle by entering Final Veil with the red slabs (found at Bone Hills)
• Forgotten Secrets
  • Solve slab puzzle by entering Forgotten Secrets with the green slabs (found at Shrine of Sacrilege)
• Heart of Mystery
  • Solve slab puzzle by entering Heart of Mystery with the yellow slab/flask things (found at Laughing Caverns)
• Nameless Ruins
  • Solve mask puzzle by interacting with the puzzle, then closing the puzzle window with all 4 masks in your inventory
• The Enigma
  • Solve Arrow and floor symbol puzzles by entering The Enigma. Does not include blue/green crystal mechanics or the final circle puzzle.

 

[LannTheStupid]

I went to excruciating length to describe exactly why Hunter is not ok the way it’s implemented. The ability is called Precise Companion. It doesn’t give the Companion any abilities. It is not in fact working as advertised. If they wanted to make that change (almost certainly for ease of programming without thinking thru or understanding at all what effect that would have on how the class plays out) they should have changed the name of that ability.

And it does not matter. And that is why you're an extremely annoying tester.

You don't like what the game gives you - fine. Find a modder and pay him to add this feature. Or wait for modders to add this by themselves.

However, the game clearly describes what is there and what is not. What you want from Precise Companion is not there, and it was not intended to be at least when they wrote the descriptions. Why - I don't know. But this is the fact. And, because the game works exactly as it says about itself, it is not a bug.

I will check your other claims in 2 weeks when I have EE with the Midnight Isles and all hotfixes. But my trust in your reasoning is degrading really fast. Which - again - means nothing.

 

[Haplo]

Mobility finally achieved

 

[Lambach]

Are you thinking of this one?

https://www.nexusmods.com/pathfinderwrathoftherighteous/mods/246

Puzzle Skip
Mod for Pathfinder: Wrath of the Righteous. Allows skipping puzzles.

Content

• Conundrum Unsolved
  • Solve slab puzzle by looting the slabs, interacting with the puzzle, and closing the puzzle window
• Core of the Riddle
  • Solve slab puzzle by entering Core of the Riddle with the cyan slabs (found at Ravaged Long House)
• Legacy of the Ancients
  • Solve slab puzzle by entering Legacy of the Ancients with the purple slabs (found at Place of Execution)
• Final Veil
  • Solve slab puzzle by entering Final Veil with the red slabs (found at Bone Hills)
• Forgotten Secrets
  • Solve slab puzzle by entering Forgotten Secrets with the green slabs (found at Shrine of Sacrilege)
• Heart of Mystery
  • Solve slab puzzle by entering Heart of Mystery with the yellow slab/flask things (found at Laughing Caverns)
• Nameless Ruins
  • Solve mask puzzle by interacting with the puzzle, then closing the puzzle window with all 4 masks in your inventory
• The Enigma
  • Solve Arrow and floor symbol puzzles by entering The Enigma. Does not include blue/green crystal mechanics or the final circle puzzle.

Unfortunately no, I have that one installed already.

I think there was one that dealt with The Enigma alone, but it looks like I may be misremembering what I've seen (or I just hallucinated that post ).

Oh well, if I ever decide to go there with my other characters, I'll just add those blue/green stones to the Inventory via ToyBox.

 

[Desiderius]

I went to excruciating length to describe exactly why Hunter is not ok the way it’s implemented. The ability is called Precise Companion. It doesn’t give the Companion any abilities. It is not in fact working as advertised. If they wanted to make that change (almost certainly for ease of programming without thinking thru or understanding at all what effect that would have on how the class plays out) they should have changed the name of that ability.

And it does not matter. And that is why you're an extremely annoying tester.

You don't like what the game gives you - fine. Find a modder and pay him to add this feature. Or wait for modders to add this by themselves.

However, the game clearly describes what is there and what is not. What you want from Precise Companion is not there, and it was not intended to be at least when they wrote the descriptions. Why - I don't know. But this is the fact. And, because the game works exactly as it says about itself, it is not a bug.

I will check your other claims in 2 weeks when I have EE with the Midnight Isles and all hotfixes. But my trust in your reasoning is degrading really fast. Which - again - means nothing.

It says Precise Companion in your own fucking game. Your (unique) implementation has nothing to do with the Companion. If that’s WAI fix your intention.

You are full of shit since you’re twisting this one example and ignoring the several other examples I gave you (as have many others) where you couldn’t even apply this tortured reasoning since they’re just flat out (reported and ignored) bugs or vaporware.

Ever planning to implement Armor Training on the several classes that say they have it but don’t? Or is that WAI too?

 

[Lambach]

Woljif with 4 Geniekinds for Elemental Barrage and Transformation (+other buffs) is pretty ridiculous. 7 ApR with +8d6 bonus damage each on top of 4 double-procs of EB for additional +40d6 damage per round is kinda absurd at level 16/MR 5. Thanks to all the buffs, his AB can be high enough to ensure you almost always land all attacks and not even have to worry about concealment because he gets to cast Echolocation.

Not sure why I never used this guy before, the Eldrich Scoundrel Class gets pretty damn busted at higher levels, specially with additional support from the rest of the party.

 

[scytheavatar]

Oh fuck off Daidre, I'm talking about what you're already doing. The problem is how few other people are.

The heart of any game with staying power (and the sales that go with them) is an evolving meta, where people find something that works then everybody chases that then somebody else finds something else and people relog to try that, buy DLC etc. For that to work you have to have viable alternatives (which is different from nerf-a-mole balense) that solve common problems in different ways. See Diablo II for a common example. The PF ruleset comes readymade to provide that. The only thing standing in the way of that is Owlcat implementation.

Lets look at the Hunter Class, which was used to drive Kickstarter contributions to reach the stretch goal to unlock it. One of the best classes in CotW P:K, but Owlcat's implementation of it in Wrath undermines it's entire raison d'être.

Hunter is a Ranger/Druid hybrid that focuses on making your animal companion the best in the game. It gets medium spell progression which is halfway between Ranger's Slow and Druid's Fast and the key spells from each class that the other is missing: Hurricane Bow/Lead Blades/Aspects from Ranger, Faerie Fire/Snowball from Druid for starters. Martial Prof from Ranger (so you get the Ranged Weapon Druid lacks), full pet from Druid. So far so good. But lets look at the specific abilities the class gets to make that companion something you'd want to play the class to get:

Lvl 1: Animal Focus: mostly fine. Making Focus Enhancement/Competence means it doesn't stack with the common buffs/items, but then it frees those up and is always on. Underrated ability (scales with class lvl which people are slowly figuring out is important) that Hunter trades away on some appealing archetypes anyway.

Lvl2: Precise Companion: for starters the whole point of this is to give your companion an ability, which Wrath doesn't. Major Fail, since the point of the class is to enhance the Companion. In the PF ruleset (and the CotW implementation) the Companion gets either Precise Shot or Outflank (along with the character), so lets look at each case and how Owlcat falls short:

Ranged Hunter: what is the point of giving the Companion Precise Shot? It's the main motivation to play Hunter in PF and CotW P:K and completely missing from Wrath. Not a bug, just missing. See lvl 3

Melee Hunter: Outflank (on both character and companion) is essential to make melee Hunter viable since Hunter is 3/4 BAB and unlike Ranger doesn't get any abilities to enhance it's AB (no Combat Style, Favorite Enemy, or Quarry). Getting Outflank at lvl 2 (on both Hunter and Companion, to turn it on since it's a TW Feat) is the only thing keeping Hunter from just whiffing throughout the hardest five levels of the game (2-6, since Companion can pick up Outflank at lvl 7). Omitting this ability leaves Hunter combat effectiveness on par with Druid, defeating the purpose of the class which was to trade fast spell progression to improve combat performance on both character and companion. Some Hunter archetypes share it via Hunter's Tactics at lvl 3 anyway, but some of the most appealing trade away Hunter's Tactics for other abilities so get completely hosed.

Lvl 3: Hunter's Tactics: as many players experienced on Sacred Huntmaster in P:K, sharing TW Feats with your companion is a powerful ability. The problem is that both vanilla P:K and Wrath lack Ranged Teamwork Feats altogether, which are the main tool that 3/4 classes like Inquisitor and Hunter have on Ranged builds to make up for not getting Flanking bonuses or Crusader's edge. The whole point of Precise Companion in PnP/CotW (which have Ranged TW Feats) is that it gives the Hunter's Companion Precise Shot which is a prereq for the Teamwork Feat Enfilading Shot and requires Ranger for instance to burn two (useless) Feats on their Companion to unlock it. But Wrath doesn't have Ranged TW Feats at all making Ranged Hunter a needlessly uphill battle, rightfully unappealing and thus "niche," which they evidently then use as a rationale to never meaningfully deliver that promised stretch goal.

This game is a single player game, it's not a live service game like Path of Exile. There is already enough content to keep people playing for a long time, I am not sure why you would want people to be playing this game forever. Energy spent on the "evolving meta" and DLCs by Owlcat could and should be spent on making a new CRPG instead, which is what we should be encouraging them to do.

 

[Desiderius]

Woljif with 4 Geniekinds for Elemental Barrage and Transformation (+other buffs) is pretty ridiculous. 7 ApR with +8d6 bonus damage each on top of 4 double-procs of EB for additional +40d6 damage per round is kinda absurd at level 16/MR 5. Thanks to all the buffs, his AB can be high enough to ensure you almost always land all attacks and not even have to worry about concealment because he gets to cast Echolocation.

Not sure why I never used this guy before, the Eldrich Scoundrel Class gets pretty damn busted at higher levels, specially with additional support from the rest of the party.

It already was without any Geniekinds needed. Keeping up 4 rnd/lvl spells (and burning a Mythic) is a huge investment of resources to give you something he already had in spades.

This game is a single player game, it's not a live service game like Path of Exile. There is already enough content to keep people playing for a long time, I am not sure why you would want people to be playing this game forever. Energy spent on the "evolving meta" and DLCs by Owlcat could and should be spent on making a new CRPG instead, which is what we should be encouraging them to do.

Grats on missing the entire point. There are no single-player games in the social media era, or to the extent there are those people make up a small part of the player base. There is in fact enough content for that - more than enough. That's my point. The trick is getting people to see what is already in front of their noses and to try it. When either:

(1) Everything on social media tells them they're idiots for not playing a narrow range of builds (one weird trick)

or

(2) Half the stuff they find there is broken, often only to be discovered after investing a ton of time leveling up to the broken parts, then the game's defenders echo (1) and tell them they were stupid for looking at that "weird" fringe content in the first place

then they're discouraged from doing that and not only move on to another game they no longer have an interest in buying DLC for this one. They've already announced another season of DLC, and some people enjoy replaying games a bit before moving on to the next thing. That's why games like this are made with this quantity of content. But if the quality doesn't come along with it people are going to move on not only from the game (before they can sell their planned DLCs) but also from the company.

 

[mediocrepoet]

I went to excruciating length to describe exactly why Hunter is not ok the way it’s implemented. The ability is called Precise Companion. It doesn’t give the Companion any abilities. It is not in fact working as advertised. If they wanted to make that change (almost certainly for ease of programming without thinking thru or understanding at all what effect that would have on how the class plays out) they should have changed the name of that ability.

This is some spectacular autism Desiderius, but I'd bet money that you're completely off base and it's because the hunter class also has the Hunter Tactics feature at level 3 that automatically grants all the hunter's teamwork feats to the pet, so... yeah, precise companion, you either know how to work with your pet to gain advantage in melee or you know how to fight with it so it doesn't muck you up when you're shooting at range. You just need to wait one whole level to get the full benefit of outflank. Which you'll reach in the tutorial, so... ok. You're upset that the feature is named something that you find misleading. That's just nutty.

 

[Desiderius]

Hey LannTheStupid, is this:



another one of those sophisticated, well-thought-out design decisions that I'm mistaking for a bug? Nice job throwing in waves of adds for the first time on top of a brand new mechanic for which the player is entirely unprepared. Perfect thing for the end of the 50 (?) island Last Azlanti roguelike standing in the way of the customer and the content they already paid for. Roguelike's fine, just let me play it without having to unlock it like a phone game.

The gobbledegook tooltip is merely the cherry on top.

 

[Yosharian]

Woljif with 4 Geniekinds for Elemental Barrage

Not anymore!

 

[Desiderius]

I went to excruciating length to describe exactly why Hunter is not ok the way it’s implemented. The ability is called Precise Companion. It doesn’t give the Companion any abilities. It is not in fact working as advertised. If they wanted to make that change (almost certainly for ease of programming without thinking thru or understanding at all what effect that would have on how the class plays out) they should have changed the name of that ability.

This is some spectacular autism Desiderius, but I'd bet money that you're completely off base and it's because the hunter class also has the Hunter Tactics feature at level 3 that automatically grants all the hunter's teamwork feats to the pet, so... yeah, precise companion, you either know how to work with your pet to gain advantage in melee or you know how to fight with it so it doesn't muck you up when you're shooting at range. You just need to wait one whole level to get the full benefit of outflank. Which you'll reach in the tutorial, so... ok. You're upset that the feature is named something that you find misleading. That's just nutty.

For fuck's sake, I've already been over this because I knew you retards would chime in with this nonsense.

Four(!) of the Hunter Archetypes don't even have Hunter's Tactics. I guarantee you that your facile reasoning was exactly Owlcat's rationale to implement it the way they did to save five lines of code or whatever, completely clueless about those four archetypes (and the importance of ranged TW Feats to the value of the class).

The PF ruleset calls it Precise Companion because it gives the ability to the Companion, for reasons which I already explained and would be painfully obvious to you if you fired up CotW to experience a decent implementation of the class. It's not just semantics - the whole point of the class is a focus on the companion and giving it those two specific abilities make a massive difference on either ranged or melee Hunter depending on which way you go. If you take an archetype with Hunter's Tactics that keeps snowballing the whole game, but those archetypes without Tactics really need the real Precise Companion to be worth playing at all over the alternatives.

Seriously, what's the point of getting Outflank at lvl2 if nothing else can get it until lvl4, and that's just Fighter? It just makes no sense.

 

[mediocrepoet]

I went to excruciating length to describe exactly why Hunter is not ok the way it’s implemented. The ability is called Precise Companion. It doesn’t give the Companion any abilities. It is not in fact working as advertised. If they wanted to make that change (almost certainly for ease of programming without thinking thru or understanding at all what effect that would have on how the class plays out) they should have changed the name of that ability.

This is some spectacular autism Desiderius, but I'd bet money that you're completely off base and it's because the hunter class also has the Hunter Tactics feature at level 3 that automatically grants all the hunter's teamwork feats to the pet, so... yeah, precise companion, you either know how to work with your pet to gain advantage in melee or you know how to fight with it so it doesn't muck you up when you're shooting at range. You just need to wait one whole level to get the full benefit of outflank. Which you'll reach in the tutorial, so... ok. You're upset that the feature is named something that you find misleading. That's just nutty.

For fuck's sake, I've already been over this because I knew you retards would chime in with this nonsense.

Four(!) of the Hunter Archetypes don't even have Hunter's Tactics. I guarantee you that your facile reasoning was exactly Owlcat's rationale to implement it the way they did to save five lines of code or whatever, completely clueless about those four archetypes (and the importance of ranged TW Feats to the value of the class).

The PF ruleset calls it Precise Companion because it gives the ability to the Companion, for reasons which I already explained and would be painfully obvious to you if you fired up CotW to experience a decent implementation of the class. It's not just semantics - the whole point of the class is a focus on the companion and giving it those two specific abilities make a massive difference on either ranged or melee Hunter depending on which way you go. If you take an archetype with Hunter's Tactics that keeps snowballing the whole game, but those archetypes without Tactics really need the real Precise Companion to be worth playing at all over the alternatives.

Seriously, what's the point of getting Outflank at lvl2 if nothing else can get it until lvl4, and that's just Fighter? It just makes no sense.

Mm. Have you considered doing something other than spending all your time thinking about this game? I think you need an intervention or something.

 

[Grunker]

you guys are so fucking gloomy and depressing, who needs bugfixes and mythic content when we're getting crucial features like armor dyeing

priorities, people

 

[Dhaze]

Having learned there's an Enhanced Edition coming soon, here's a quick question for anyone knowledgeable and kind enough to answer: have the bugged or outright non-functionnal abilities of some classes been corrected in the last few months, say, since March or April?

For example, early this year I had made a Primal Druid whose Wild Shape (Bear) mentionned an ability called Rend, explained as such: When a bear hits an opponent with both its claws, it deals an additional 1d6 plus 1–1/2 times its Strength modifier points of slashing damage. Only, Rend never triggered once, and I had the suspicion that it was on Owlcat's part yet another description copy-pasted straight from the rulebook, but without Rend being actually implemented in the game.

If I remember correctly they had already done stuff like that in Kingmaker, in which you could pick Spell Focus: Universalist, but there wasn't a single Universalist spell in the game...

Of course I went through many of the patch notes to see what might have changed in that regard, but from previous experience I don't trust Owlcat in the least when they say something has been fixed; multiple times they said that only for it to be not fixed, or become broken again some patch later.

 

[Zboj Lamignat]

A lot of stuff is still broken, you can skim though posts in this thread even. Fixing class abilities/feats/etc does not seem to be a priority for them and while EE might (?) fix some things, you can be sure it will break a lot of stuff, too.

 

[Haplo]

A lot of stuff is still broken, you can skim though posts in this thread even. Fixing class abilities/feats/etc does not seem to be a priority for them and while EE might (?) fix some things, you can be sure it will break a lot of stuff, too.

That's certainly possible.
Although the devs have been preparing ground for the EE in the last patches already.

 

[Jaedar]

you guys are so fucking gloomy and depressing, who needs bugfixes and mythic content when we're getting crucial features like armor dyeing

priorities, people

The most important question is: will saves be compatible?
I haven't finished my first playthrough (arcanist lich into legend), but I'd like to resume it at some point.

 

[perfectslumbers]

The most important question is: will saves be compatible?

According to Owlcat yes, but I wouldn't count on it

 

[Cyberarmy]

My latest stand alone DLC save got nuked hard when it got patched, so those are murky waters.