Pathfinder Pathfinder: Wrath of the Righteous - Game of the Year Edition

[InD_ImaginE]

Nenio Illusion is a special case because the game massively shove "Here is Nenio, she is good at Illusion, build her that way" through giving A LOT of DC boosting items for Illusion/Mind Affecting spells.

I don't think any other companion build is shoved so hard to you as Nenio is

 

[LannTheStupid]

like Selective (+ Heightened) Grease, Glitterdust, Web etc.

If I am to (slightly) cosplay Desiderius I say this: by choosing Selective you are trading off one feat and one DC of the spell for your inability to micromanage. I would take Selective only for Sirocco and the likes, when non-Selective spells become almost impossible to use. Highten and, especially, Persistent are what DC casters need.

 

[Desiderius]

Nenio starts with Spell Pen and with Robe and Relic that opens up Selective Color Spray once you get Magician’s Ring. Don’t forget Staff of Coercion from Library and Shaken/Archon’s/Evil Eye/Sicken/etc saves malus.

 

[Lambach]

Yeah, I figured high 30's or low 40's is pretty much the soft cap for Companions on most Mythic Paths.

Which seems kinda meh, because things that you actually need CC'd ASAP will probably have Saves in the 30's or more later in the game (specially on higher difficulties). Like those Desolating Gallu Stormcaller faggots in Treshold, for example (immune to mind-affecting stuff and with 40+ in Fort and Reflex on Core) just so they can fuck you some more).

If I am to (slightly) cosplay Desiderius I say this: by choosing Selective you are trading off one feat and one DC of the spell for your inability to micromanage.

Not quite, since I Favorite'd Selective Metamagic, so it has a +0 Spell Level increase. Not sure why they made it so that you can't apply Favorite Metamagic to Persistent, though, that combo would be really, really good.

 

[Desiderius]

Nenio Illusion is a special case because the game massively shove "Here is Nenio, she is good at Illusion, build her that way" through giving A LOT of DC boosting items for Illusion/Mind Affecting spells.

I don't think any other companion build is shoved so hard to you as Nenio is

There’s a good bit of Evo/nuking stuff as well and Blightmaw has Enchant ring. Will Staff works for more than Illusion. Basically if you focus on any school you can get there but people don’t because they’re chasing memes instead of figuring out how.

 

[Desiderius]

Yeah, I figured high 30's or low 40's is pretty much the soft cap for Companions on most Mythic Paths.

Which seems kinda meh, because things that you actually need CC'd ASAP will probably have Saves in the 30's or more later in the game (specially on higher difficulties). Like those Desolating Gallu Stormcaller faggots in Treshold, for example (immune to mind-affecting stuff and with 40+ in Fort and Reflex on Core) just so they can fuck you some more).

If I am to (slightly) cosplay Desiderius I say this: by choosing Selective you are trading off one feat and one DC of the spell for your inability to micromanage.

Not quite, since I Favorite'd Selective Metamagic, so it has a +0 Spell Level increase. Not sure why they made it so that you can't apply Favorite Metamagic to Persistent, though, that combo would be really, really good.

By then you can debuff. Well, not you but people trying.

 

[LannTheStupid]

Not quite, since I Favorite'd Selective Metamagic, so it has a +0 Spell Level increase. Not sure why they made it so that you can't apply Favorite Metamagic to Persistent, though, that combo would be really, really good.

Then again, you're spending one Mythic, which are even more precious. And you're slowing the DC progression for early spells with either relatively small radii or not so severe effects (Web does not make anyone Flat-footed, IIRC). For me early Selective is a good example of "opportunity cost" (TM).

However, I have not tried Selective Colour Spray. Will try the next time.

 

[InD_ImaginE]

Nenio Illusion is a special case because the game massively shove "Here is Nenio, she is good at Illusion, build her that way" through giving A LOT of DC boosting items for Illusion/Mind Affecting spells.

I don't think any other companion build is shoved so hard to you as Nenio is

There’s a good bit of Evo/nuking stuff as well and Blightmaw has Enchant ring. Will Staff works for more than Illusion. Basically if you focus on any school you can get there but people don’t because they’re chasing memes instead of figuring out how.

Nah but Illusion/Mind-affecting is really - really shoved to you. Yeah there are also some Evocation stuff given but not to the extent of Illusion. And Nenio starting specializing as one is just a very shoved in build. She will still be effective in Unfair precisely because the whole game props her up (at least until the High Level expansion where all the enemies are immune to mind affecting). Power curve wise this makes her effective throughout the game instead of needing to reach mid/high level.

Evocation DC based companion build is not nearly as supported as her Illusion build is. The other non MC DC based casters are just way too RNG early. I mean sure you can build them and you can probably go to high level enough where they start to be effective as you have 5 other party members + animal companion(s), but it doesn't mean "Nenio Illusion" build is a good example of "building DC based caster for companion". Nenio Illusion is exception than the rule.

 

[Lambach]

By then you can debuff. Well, not you but people trying.

One of the most common ways of applying a penalty to Saves, i.e. through Shaken via Frightful Aspect, doesn't work because those Gallus are immune to fear-based effects.

And even with other debuffs, that still gives you usually a sub-50% chance of applying your CC, and that's just Core. Hard/Unfair is even more of a bitch, I imagine. So it's not like it's impossible or anything, but it is a lot more random and luck-based than I like.

 

[Lambach]

Nenio Illusion is exception than the rule.

Without help from your MC and his specific spells/abilities on specific Mythic Paths, even a well optimized Nenio is still probably looking at Illusion DCs in the low 40's during endgame, maybe mid-40's.

That's not bad at all, but it isn't particularly great either, specially not against enemies that you really want to CC or delete with Weird ASAP.

EDIT:

Then again, you're spending one Mythic, which are even more precious. And you're slowing the DC progression for early spells with either relatively small radii or not so severe effects (Web does not make anyone Flat-footed, IIRC). For me early Selective is a good example of "opportunity cost" (TM).

Bruh, the first time I started spamming Selective Grease without having to worry about how to aim it and unlocking its full potential, I cried tears of joy. Selective (specially Favorite Selective) is just that good. Stacking several Selective'd "Domain of the Hungry Flesh" (Lich Spell) almost feels like a cheat code.

 

[Desiderius]

Nenio Illusion is a special case because the game massively shove "Here is Nenio, she is good at Illusion, build her that way" through giving A LOT of DC boosting items for Illusion/Mind Affecting spells.

I don't think any other companion build is shoved so hard to you as Nenio is

There’s a good bit of Evo/nuking stuff as well and Blightmaw has Enchant ring. Will Staff works for more than Illusion. Basically if you focus on any school you can get there but people don’t because they’re chasing memes instead of figuring out how.

Nah but Illusion/Mind-affecting is really - really shoved to you. Yeah there are also some Evocation stuff given but not to the extent of Illusion. And Nenio starting specializing as one is just a very shoved in build. She will still be effective in Unfair precisely because the whole game props her up (at least until the High Level expansion where all the enemies are immune to mind affecting). Power curve wise this makes her effective throughout the game instead of needing to reach mid/high level.

Evocation DC based companion build is not nearly as supported as her Illusion build is. The other non MC DC based casters are just way too RNG early. I mean sure you can build them and you can probably go to high level enough where they start to be effective as you have 5 other party members + animal companion(s), but it doesn't mean "Nenio Illusion" build is a good example of "building DC based caster for companion". Nenio Illusion is exception than the rule.

Nenio (or MC Phantasmal Mage even better) Illusion is good because it has three spells that are already Selective (and Heightened, because they start at level 4) which would save the people trying to spam low level spells the whole game two Feats if they would try them. Shadow spells are highly underrated with the correct DC (which TTT gives you) and especially with Phantasmal Mage (or any Arcanist but PMage is perfect fit).

But Transmutation also gets a Selective Spell at lvl 3 (Slow) which gets Quickened by Darven’s Hat and a very underrated SR-bypassing Obsidian Flow (Entangle, Difficult Terrain, and damage) at lvl 4 that turns on Fire Items if you don’t have a nuker. Touch of Gracelessness can also be a sneaky-good Standard Action and of course also gets Baleful and other good late spells.

The Evo support is later but it takes awhile to get all the meta together for good nuking anyway. Enchant has a +2 ring in Drezen, Conj bypasses SR and unlocks Summon buff, etc…

What does Nenio even get other than Magician’s Ring?

 

[Yosharian]

Enchantment is well-supported by items, 50+ DC by endgame

By that I mean my BFT whose main purpose is to buff my party, can also function as a CC specialist

 

[Desiderius]

Fighting Unfair Blightmaw:



Lann using Rime Metamagic (+1 lvl, Entangle on Cold Damage) Snowball with Touch of Law from Reg for auto - 11 roll. Can see Shadow Conjuration - Web already cast from Nenio to slow Blightmaw down. Entangle debuffs Reflex save on Web, lowers AC.



Blightmaw blows out the Grapple check to break free from Web but burns his Standard Action on it, then refails Reflex (though he made the tough Will save to disbelieve so next turn will probably ignore - higher level Shadow Spells have lower probably to ignore on made save, plus there's a Mythic to take off another 20%. Note that Shadow versions of Conj Spells that ignore SR also ignore SR). Next turn if he doesn't make the disbelieve roll he'll have to Grapple again instead of attacking. Web is still Difficult Terrain so he doesn't make it to team.



Spell Pen and Intimidate checks now use advantage. Curious if Dispel checks do (they weren't before). Sos gives himself advantage for several rounds with second Luck ability and can also give out one per round (swift Action) with the first.



Tank Seelah not ready to tank bosses yet. Doesn't have Fighting Defensively up, and either Blight has True Seeing or forgot to use Image Wand. Had a rez ready for this situation, but lucky not to need it. Bismuth's job is to die at this point. Drunk Azata doing her job trying to stun my team. Should only use for decoy. Deva summons were giving Blight +4 AC so not using here.



Spawn Slayer MC slaying. Holy on Bow from second Sos Good Domain ability. Either Blightmaw isn't Large/Huge (too big?) or Spawn Slayer bonus isn't working. Will need to keep an eye on that vs Devarra. Note Reg Aura stacking with Heroism.



Nenio lining up a cast of Shadow Conjuration - Grease. Notice that the Arcane Bond ability is a Free Action so you can keep one cast memorized then fire off two if needed. With Darven's Hat can even get two casts in one turn. Decided to wait to re-up Shaken so Delayed this turn.



Sosiel put the Touch of Good on Seelah to boost her Intimidate to unlock Reg's Shatter, but Sos decided to just end the fight right here instead. Advantage is good. Missing Haste not so much. Must have run out - timing it tricky on this fight with waiting for summon. Looks like his Righteous Might is still up though which is where the +7 STR comes from.

 

[Desiderius]

Hard Staunton fight

RNG is borken! Probably let Minagho get off the Putrefaction. Lann's pet had Power Attack off unnecessarily. Mainly wanted to take out Nurah with the Pounce and that was enough.



Didn't remember it being coded as a Fear effect. Seelah has immunity Aura, should have Doored everyone in to protect them.



No biggie, Drovier Lann has the Soothing Mud. Fight was too easy on Hard. Looking forward to DC Gaze with Nenio/Sos/Lann casting.

 

[Daidre]

Spawn Slayer MC slaying. Holy on Bow from second Sos Good Domain ability. Either Blightmaw isn't Large/Huge (too big?) or Spawn Slayer bonus isn't working. Will need to keep an eye on that vs Devarra. Note Reg Aura stacking with Heroism.

I've run Lann as Spawn Slayer recently and over course of three Chapters I was never able to get better Studied bonus against bigger targets.
I think it is safe to say that ability is not working and Spawn Slayer trades away Quick Study for 0 not-bugged benefits.

 

[Yosharian]

Spawn Slayer MC slaying. Holy on Bow from second Sos Good Domain ability. Either Blightmaw isn't Large/Huge (too big?) or Spawn Slayer bonus isn't working. Will need to keep an eye on that vs Devarra. Note Reg Aura stacking with Heroism.

I've run Lann as Spawn Slayer recently and over course of three Chapters I was never able to get better Studied bonus against bigger targets.
I think it is safe to say that ability is not working and Spawn Slayer trades away Quick Study for 0 not-bugged benefits.

Wait whaaat

I almost used that archetype quite a few times

Wait no I actually did use it in KM, did it work there or is it bugged also?

 

[Yosharian]

I almost got past the character creation screen last night

Couldn't decide on a portrait

 

[Desiderius]

Back to Divine Casting on either Sos or Daeran. The second most important factor to consider (the first is Archon's) is this item:



That can be found in Temple of Drezen. Way earlier that other Max rods (as opposed to Lesser Max) but can only be used by Oracle or Cleric. Lets look at spells it effects:

Breakdown of all spells that work well with Rod

Arrow was forgettable in P:K but with Rod you've got a chunk of 60 Divine damage (vs Touch AC) with a Daze attached vs Demons. Very solid 2nd level spell. Can up damage with meta if you want to go that way.

Searing Touch is no save. Medium Range instead of Close. Good vs Undead like Zach who have no SR. Holy Smite/Order's Wrath turns Arrow of Law into AoE with Blind/Daze depending on which one you use. Also Medium range so easier to avoid own team, or just send Seelah in since she's immune to both.



Boneshatter goes up to 90 with no attack roll needed and adds exhaustion/fatigue. Also attacks Fort instead of Will.



Flame Strike takes it AoE and a 50 pt Breath has a lot better chance to revive something than if you need a roll. It says friendly but people have said can be used against Undead/Playful?



Recovery is Medium Range and ends up healing/damaging more pts. Plague Storm (bypasses SR!) gets a lot more serious if it's -8 DEX AoE or -4 STR with Blind. Daeran/Ember has Beneficial Curse that can boost Disease DC by two while making them immune.



Maxxing Summons is always good but look at what Max Rod does to Undeath to Death! Ghosts must die.



And then there's the obvious. Note that Cold Ice Strike is Swift. Daeran with Second Mystery Waves can tack a Slow onto Cold spells.

As the game goes on you can add in other meta (some would need Favorite meta to stay at 6 or under) like Bolster to keep the damage going up. Can take Evo Focus first, then Expanded Arsenal Necro alternatively.

 

[Yosharian]

I tried to post a thread about it on Reddit but the fucking piece of shit won't even let me post, keeps dumping me at a captcha and then nothing happens when I solve it

Fucking Reddit

I feel like captchas are basically designed to just stop humans from doing things at this point

 

[Haplo]

Yeah, I figured high 30's or low 40's is pretty much the soft cap for Companions on most Mythic Paths.

Which seems kinda meh, because things that you actually need CC'd ASAP will probably have Saves in the 30's or more later in the game (specially on higher difficulties). Like those Desolating Gallu Stormcaller faggots in Treshold, for example (immune to mind-affecting stuff and with 40+ in Fort and Reflex on Core) just so they can fuck you some more).

If I am to (slightly) cosplay Desiderius I say this: by choosing Selective you are trading off one feat and one DC of the spell for your inability to micromanage.

Not quite, since I Favorite'd Selective Metamagic, so it has a +0 Spell Level increase. Not sure why they made it so that you can't apply Favorite Metamagic to Persistent, though, that combo would be really, really good.

Yeah, I guess its a bit of a challenge. Particularly outside of Expanded Arsenal cheese.
You certainly can thin out mobs with Persistant aoe CC. It will stick on some, making the encounters easier overall.
Also quite often some key targets are susceptible (such as humanoid casters often having sucky Reflex and possibly Fortitude too).

But versus tough demons you mention... odds are not looking good at first glance. You'll have to put some work for your spells to stick.

With some serious debuffing it should be possible however. The single biggest one would be the Madness Domain Touch (up to -10 - could even be up to -20 if MC Domain user Trickster, but needs touch and going trough enemy SR). Versus enemies who are not immune, Evil Eye (-4) and a fear aura (-2 - Frightful Aspect, Dirge of Doom... or other sources of Shaken/Fear) would be good as well. Plus there are some items that debuff some saves - like Display of Power belt does -2 Will in 15 ft.
Then Mythic paths with party-wide DC boosts would help - Aeon comes to mind, to a lesser degree angel. I think demon can eventually support the party via aspects too- but it probably a late game affair.

So, not quite a lost case, however needs support - which the sidekicks rarely get in my games.

 

[Haplo]

Back to Divine Casting on either Sos or Daeran. The second most important factor to consider (the first is Archon's) is this item:

View attachment 30673

That can be found in Temple of Drezen. Way earlier that other Max rods (as opposed to Lesser Max) but can only be used by Oracle or Cleric. Lets look at spells it effects:

Breakdown of all spells that work well with Rod

View attachment 30672

Arrow was forgettable in P:K but with Rod you've got a chunk of 60 Divine damage (vs Touch AC) with a Daze attached vs Demons. Very solid 2nd level spell. Can up damage with meta if you want to go that way.

Searing Touch is no save. Medium Range instead of Close. Good vs Undead like Zach who have no SR. Holy Smite/Order's Wrath turns Arrow of Law into AoE with Blind/Daze depending on which one you use. Also Medium range so easier to avoid own team, or just send Seelah in since she's immune to both.

View attachment 30674

Boneshatter goes up to 90 with no attack roll needed and adds exhaustion/fatigue. Also attacks Fort instead of Will.

View attachment 30675

Flame Strike takes it AoE and a 50 pt Breath has a lot better chance to revive something than if you need a roll. It says friendly but people have said can be used against Undead/Playful?

View attachment 30676

Recovery is Medium Range and ends up healing/damaging more pts. Plague Storm (bypasses SR!) gets a lot more serious if it's -8 DEX AoE or -4 STR with Blind. Daeran/Ember has Beneficial Curse that can boost Disease DC by two while making them immune.

View attachment 30677

Maxxing Summons is always good but look at what Max Rod does to Undeath to Death! Ghosts must die.

View attachment 30678

And then there's the obvious. Note that Cold Ice Strike is Swift. Daeran with Second Mystery Waves can tack a Slow onto Cold spells.

As the game goes on you can add in other meta (some would need Favorite meta to stay at 6 or under) like Bolster to keep the damage going up. Can take Evo Focus first, then Expanded Arsenal Necro alternatively.

Wow, it somehow never crossed my mind to Maximize Inspiring Recovery/Breath of Life. And yeah, I've had this rod all the time. That's golden, Desiderius!

 

[Haplo]

Nenio Illusion is a special case because the game massively shove "Here is Nenio, she is good at Illusion, build her that way" through giving A LOT of DC boosting items for Illusion/Mind Affecting spells.

I don't think any other companion build is shoved so hard to you as Nenio is

There’s a good bit of Evo/nuking stuff as well and Blightmaw has Enchant ring. Will Staff works for more than Illusion. Basically if you focus on any school you can get there but people don’t because they’re chasing memes instead of figuring out how.

Nah but Illusion/Mind-affecting is really - really shoved to you. Yeah there are also some Evocation stuff given but not to the extent of Illusion. And Nenio starting specializing as one is just a very shoved in build. She will still be effective in Unfair precisely because the whole game props her up (at least until the High Level expansion where all the enemies are immune to mind affecting). Power curve wise this makes her effective throughout the game instead of needing to reach mid/high level.

Evocation DC based companion build is not nearly as supported as her Illusion build is. The other non MC DC based casters are just way too RNG early. I mean sure you can build them and you can probably go to high level enough where they start to be effective as you have 5 other party members + animal companion(s), but it doesn't mean "Nenio Illusion" build is a good example of "building DC based caster for companion". Nenio Illusion is exception than the rule.

Illusion is fine and dandy, but as already has been said, its actually Enchantment that gets the most support by far.
Shouldn't be surprising, as Nenio might be Illusion focused, but Enchantment spells are one of the strong points on a Witch spell list - Ember can easily be made to specialize in them.

 

[Haplo]

Then again, you're spending one Mythic, which are even more precious. And you're slowing the DC progression for early spells with either relatively small radii or not so severe effects (Web does not make anyone Flat-footed, IIRC). For me early Selective is a good example of "opportunity cost" (TM).

Bruh, the first time I started spamming Selective Grease without having to worry about how to aim it and unlocking its full potential, I cried tears of joy. Selective (specially Favorite Selective) is just that good. Stacking several Selective'd "Domain of the Hungry Flesh" (Lich Spell) almost feels like a cheat code.

TTT fixes Selective not to work on persistant effects

 

[Lambach]

Ember kinda takes a while to get going as a Enchanter. You very likely need at least one level in Loremaster to pick up Greater Command, which requires two Feats. Then you need 2 Spell Focus Feats and 2 Spell Pen ones. So she only fully comes online at level 15, unless you put more levels in Loremaster for extra Feats.

 

[Haplo]

But Transmutation also gets a Selective Spell at lvl 3 (Slow) which gets Quickened by Darven’s Hat and a very underrated SR-bypassing Obsidian Flow (Entangle, Difficult Terrain, and damage) at lvl 4 that turns on Fire Items if you don’t have a nuker. Touch of Gracelessness can also be a sneaky-good Standard Action and of course also gets Baleful and other good late spells.

Yeah, in my current game I rarely use other CC then Persistant Slow. I mean it doesn't land a lot, but its quite crippling for the enemies... without disabling their ability to make AoOs or see my MC