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Pathfinder Pathfinder: Wrath of the Righteous - Enhanced Edition - now with A Dance of Masks epilogue DLC

Grunker

RPG Codex Ghost
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I love it. Hands down. Simple as. While I merely enjoyed Kingmaker, I think WotR is fantastic.

A lot of that is the difficulty by the way. Until level 17ish, this game is way, waaaay harder than Kingmaker, and has more thoughtful encounter and enemy design.

Can you still trivialize it by exploiting stuff? Yes, exactly like every single RPG ever. But my meme-team is stronger than my Kingmaker one, and it still has a harder time. That's a sign that they put more effort into making the enemies threatening.
 

Yosharian

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Grand Chien
I love it. Hands down. Simple as. While I merely enjoyed Kingmaker, I think WotR is fantastic.

A lot of that is the difficulty by the way. Until level 17ish, this game is way, waaaay harder than Kingmaker, and has more thoughtful encounter and enemy design.

Can you still trivialize it by exploiting stuff? Yes, exactly like every single RPG ever. But my meme-team is stronger than my Kingmaker one, and it still has a harder time. That's a sign that they put more effort into making the enemies threatening.
Dude the AI is fucking terrible. I summoned some 2HD skeletons in front of Deskari and he attacks them instead of my party. Mephistopheles could annihilate my MC (who got dismounted cos his mount got eviscerated by a Hellfire Ray) in one iterative attack sequence but instead he casts Fire Snake on my supports... who all have Evasion.
 

Grunker

RPG Codex Ghost
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I love it. Hands down. Simple as. While I merely enjoyed Kingmaker, I think WotR is fantastic.

A lot of that is the difficulty by the way. Until level 17ish, this game is way, waaaay harder than Kingmaker, and has more thoughtful encounter and enemy design.

Can you still trivialize it by exploiting stuff? Yes, exactly like every single RPG ever. But my meme-team is stronger than my Kingmaker one, and it still has a harder time. That's a sign that they put more effort into making the enemies threatening.
Dude the AI is fucking terrible. I summoned some 2HD skeletons in front of Deskari and he attacks them instead of my party. Mephistopheles could annihilate my MC (who got dismounted cos his mount got eviscerated by a Hellfire Ray) in one iterative attack sequence but instead he casts Fire Snake on my supports... who all have Evasion.
 

Yosharian

Arcane
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May 28, 2018
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Grand Chien
I love it. Hands down. Simple as. While I merely enjoyed Kingmaker, I think WotR is fantastic.

A lot of that is the difficulty by the way. Until level 17ish, this game is way, waaaay harder than Kingmaker, and has more thoughtful encounter and enemy design.

Can you still trivialize it by exploiting stuff? Yes, exactly like every single RPG ever. But my meme-team is stronger than my Kingmaker one, and it still has a harder time. That's a sign that they put more effort into making the enemies threatening.
Dude the AI is fucking terrible. I summoned some 2HD skeletons in front of Deskari and he attacks them instead of my party. Mephistopheles could annihilate my MC (who got dismounted cos his mount got eviscerated by a Hellfire Ray) in one iterative attack sequence but instead he casts Fire Snake on my supports... who all have Evasion.
Oh fuck off Grunker. Summoning some skeletons is not an 'exploit'.
 

Grunker

RPG Codex Ghost
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I love it. Hands down. Simple as. While I merely enjoyed Kingmaker, I think WotR is fantastic.

A lot of that is the difficulty by the way. Until level 17ish, this game is way, waaaay harder than Kingmaker, and has more thoughtful encounter and enemy design.

Can you still trivialize it by exploiting stuff? Yes, exactly like every single RPG ever. But my meme-team is stronger than my Kingmaker one, and it still has a harder time. That's a sign that they put more effort into making the enemies threatening.
Dude the AI is fucking terrible. I summoned some 2HD skeletons in front of Deskari and he attacks them instead of my party. Mephistopheles could annihilate my MC (who got dismounted cos his mount got eviscerated by a Hellfire Ray) in one iterative attack sequence but instead he casts Fire Snake on my supports... who all have Evasion.
Oh fuck off Grunker. Summoning some skeletons is not an 'exploit'.

You can get mad, but there's a reason I always play with suboptimal builds in these games. I fully expect them to become trivialized otherwise. The disappointing thing about Kingmaker was it was trivialized even by fairly mediocre builds very fast. WotR didn't become trivial for me until post-Nocticula.
 

Yosharian

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I'm not mad, I am calmly telling you to fuck off because what you said is complete nonsense =D

Casting the Animate Dead spell in a boss fight is not 'exploiting' the game.
 

Grunker

RPG Codex Ghost
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I'm not mad, I am calmly telling you to fuck off because what you said is complete nonsense =D

It is? The game is easier than Kingmaker?

If you think that, you seem to be part of a very small minority. I think it's significantly harder.
 

Grunker

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I doubt we actually disagree that much. There were plenty of fights where summoning doesn't instantly solve your woes - in fact, I think Last Stand might be more of an issue because that bypasses a lot of the fights where summoning won't save you.

I also play without rest unless I absolutely have to rest, meaning I basically only summon in important fights.

As well, I do think Deskari is kind of a disingenuous example, because 1) it happens at a point where you are laughably OP and pupstomping everything, 2) it is easily the most disappointing fight of the entire game in opinion. Just shit design. Deskari has way too few defenses and way too few relevant attacks (which he won't get off because he is so easily killed). He should spawn a gazillion tough swarms and be undamagable until they are dealt with or something similar on Unfair.

There are two reasons I think you find the game so exploitable: your builds are better than mine, and you play without double damage. At least, until level 17-18 I had a few fights that were balls hard, and lots more where I had to pay attention, I couldn't just auto through them.

You say the AI is horrible, but it's all perspective, isn't it? After Kingmaker I thought maybe with all the shit going on in PF and all the power and synergy available to the player, maybe it is just impossible to create compelling gameplay. Especially considering 90% of the player-base thinks the game is nigh unbeatable on Core. I think WotR proves that there were actually venues for them to increase difficulty despite that. It still has a lot of the unavoidable problems that the system complexity introduces, but it nukes enough of them that I'm having a blast.

A lot of people say they would love an SCS for PF, and while I obviously agree in principle, this point itself highlights why these issue exist in Pathfinder: SCS is one of the most complex, layered and iterated upon mods in RPG history - maybe *the* deepest AI-scripting in RPG history *period* - and it "only" had to account for basic auto-attacking, a handful of defensive spells and the spell defenses vs. spell strip minigame.

Meanwhile, a similar mod (or developer implemented AI) would have so much fucking crazy shit to account for - and if you "overaccount", you could easily end up with unfun fights that required specific builds - meaning there would be an insanely heavy testing-and-iteration burden on a project - fan made or otherwise - that attempted to upgrade the AI significantly.

Now you're gonna say "how about they just do basic shit like bosses don't target summons and we'll get to the complicated stuff later," but considering a ton of much more basic shit still doesn't work as it should in these games (we're talking entire build paths or something like enlarging spells being hell to use with mounts, something almost every player is going to encounter yet which is still an issue), I think it's wholly unreasonable to expect better encounter and enemy design than what we have in WotR - it surpasses my expectations.

In other words, you could call the AI terrible in isolation. But I find discussions such as these become misleading very fast without context.
 
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Grunker

RPG Codex Ghost
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IMHO kingmaker first chapter is harder than wotr first chapter.

Hard disagree. Maze is some of the hardest shit I've done in a video game. Kingmaker's Chap 1 was pretty hard, but there were no enemies I couldn't hit without a 20, unlike a bunch of WotR's. Kingmaker has nothing near the brutes or monks you meet in the maze (and then we're even leaving out water elemental etc.)
 

ga♥

Arcane
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Feb 3, 2017
Messages
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IMHO kingmaker first chapter is harder than wotr first chapter.

Hard disagree. Maze is some of the hardest shit I've done in a video game. Kingmaker's Chap 1 was pretty hard, but there were no enemies I couldn't hit without a 20, unlike a bunch of WotR's. Kingmaker has nothing near the brutes or monks you meet in the maze (and then we're even leaving out water elemental etc.)

The tomb encounter with Tartuccio henchmen was harder than the maze (and btw you couldn't even finish the prologue on unfair until several patches...). Did you play Kingmaker unfair too?
 

Grunker

RPG Codex Ghost
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IMHO kingmaker first chapter is harder than wotr first chapter.

Hard disagree. Maze is some of the hardest shit I've done in a video game. Kingmaker's Chap 1 was pretty hard, but there were no enemies I couldn't hit without a 20, unlike a bunch of WotR's. Kingmaker has nothing near the brutes or monks you meet in the maze (and then we're even leaving out water elemental etc.)

The tomb encounter with Tartuccio henchmen was harder than the maze (and btw you couldn't even finish the prologue on unfair until several patches...). Did you play Kingmaker unfair too?

Yep and yep. With Kingmaker I even played during early release
 

ga♥

Arcane
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Joined
Feb 3, 2017
Messages
8,073
IMHO kingmaker first chapter is harder than wotr first chapter.

Hard disagree. Maze is some of the hardest shit I've done in a video game. Kingmaker's Chap 1 was pretty hard, but there were no enemies I couldn't hit without a 20, unlike a bunch of WotR's. Kingmaker has nothing near the brutes or monks you meet in the maze (and then we're even leaving out water elemental etc.)

The tomb encounter with Tartuccio henchmen was harder than the maze (and btw you couldn't even finish the prologue on unfair until several patches...). Did you play Kingmaker unfair too?

Yep and yep. With Kingmaker I even played during early release

So, in RTWP and at release before all the nerfs (but not unfair in prologue if at release). Don't know how can you say the maze is harder.
 

huskarls

Scholar
Joined
Aug 7, 2016
Messages
153
wrotr ch.1 ends after kenaberes, not the maze. the slaver encounter and fighting the staglord's entire entourage are harder than the tomb, the water elemental and tomb can go smooth if you build your pc right and choose your companions wisely
 

santino27

Arcane
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Oct 1, 2008
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My team has the sexiest and deadliest waifus you can recruit.
Warth is harder, but I enjoyed the content (narrative and otherwise) of Kingmaker more, at least up until everything was Wild Hunt feys falling out of the sky. Obviously, YMMV.
 

DY050503

Educated
Joined
Jan 22, 2022
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58
Did they fix the bug that the Devil keep summoning monsters if you choose the legend path?
 

Yosharian

Arcane
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wrotr ch.1 ends after kenaberes, not the maze. the slaver encounter and fighting the staglord's entire entourage are harder than the tomb, the water elemental and tomb can go smooth if you build your pc right and choose your companions wisely
Staglord? Dude Staglord is fucking EASY

PISS easy
 

Haplo

Prophet
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Sep 14, 2016
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6,530
Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire
wrotr ch.1 ends after kenaberes, not the maze. the slaver encounter and fighting the staglord's entire entourage are harder than the tomb, the water elemental and tomb can go smooth if you build your pc right and choose your companions wisely
Staglord? Dude Staglord is fucking EASY

PISS easy
To be fair, he mentioned fighting the entire entourage. On the other hand, why would you? PARTICULARLY on Unfair?
 

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