Pathfinder Pathfinder: Wrath of the Righteous - Enhanced Edition - now with A Dance of Masks epilogue DLC

[Desiderius]

At no point did I think

That pretty much covers it. Start. It’s fun.

 

[Lambach]

Since you’re delayed caster the CL boost from additional levels is gold and there’s more great 4th level spells than you could ever hope to cast.

You mean regular Paladin Spells? I dunno, I'd say only Holy Sword, Crusader's Edge and Eaglesoul are worth casting. Bestow the Grace of the Champion would be good too, were it not exclusive to Lawful Good characters only (so only potentially the MC or a Merc). Resounding Blow might also have been good if it didn't allow a Save, and as a Paladin, the DC on your Spells is probably going to be rather pathetic for that stage in the game. Other Spells on that level should be cast by your Cleric/Oracle.

Dipping into another Class might provide more benefits than getting more casts of those Spells, but since I never bothered with Paladins prior to WotR, I have no idea what they synergize with. Maybe a 1-level dip into Thug for Frightening if you have Dazzling Display/Cornugon smash?

 

[Lambach]

Has anyone tried a build that revolves around extracting the most damage possible out of Attacks of Opportunity when you Frighten something with Cornugon Smash?

If it's strong and doesn't take 300 Levels to properly take off, I was thinking of doing that with the MC on my 2nd playthrough (Azata Bard/Thug most likely). Otherwise, I might build some companion that way. My current Regill doesn't inspire a lot of hope for that build, but his AoOs are not nearly as optimized as they could be (e.g. I don't even have Ever Ready on him).

 

[Desiderius]

Has anyone tried a build that revolves around extracting the most damage possible out of Attacks of Opportunity when you Frighten something with Cornugon Smash?

If it's strong and doesn't take 300 Levels to properly take off, I was thinking of doing that with the MC on my 2nd playthrough (Azata Bard/Thug most likely). Otherwise, I might build some companion that way. My current Regill doesn't inspire a lot of hope for that build, but his AoOs are not nearly as optimized as they could be (e.g. I don't even have Ever Ready on him).

Reg does his damage with Full Attacks and a lot of iteratives (as does Wolj and the way I build Seelah and Greybor). As I’ve tried to point out Sosiel can do good damage this way and Lann and Aru can light up fleeing mobs (helps to put down difficult terrain so they don’t run too far/fast) but if you want full AoO value you’d need a two-hander MC (or oddly enough Trevor who’s kind of a joke but can still hit pretty hard).

 

[Lambach]

Reg does his damage with Full Attacks and a lot of iteratives (as does Wolj and the way I build Seelah and Greybor). As I’ve tried to point out Sosiel can do good damage this way and Lann and Aru can light up fleeing mobs (helps to put down difficult terrain so they don’t run too far/fast) but if you want full AoO value you’d need a two-hander MC (or oddly enough Trevor who’s kind of a joke but can still hit pretty hard).

Two-handed long weapon is kind of a no-brainer, I'll likely have to spend most of the time behind the tank. What would be the best weapon for that? Glaive is the choice that seems the most convenient because there are some pretty good enchanted ones you can get fairly early (e.g. Soulshear), but I've seen a lot people consider them a sub-par choice.

 

[Yosharian]

is it worth it to take 3 lvls of mutation warrior on a paladin build? mainly for the flask plus the feats.

Desiderius will say no, but I think you can multiclass paldin to fighter as soon as level 11 and gain more than you lose. I'd try to take at least 5 levels of fighter if you can for weapon training, though. Honestly, it really depends on what role you're trying to build your character for.

Are you aware of what Greater Angelic Aura does? You know Pal gets it at lvl 13 (which is two levels earlier than even pure Cleric), right?

I just don't get chasing little +1 AB bonuses when you're getting +4 AoE all over the place or more. You need those Smite activations for Mark as well. I wonder if all the stuff Pal gets breaks your brains or something and you just revert to 3.5 for some relief.

Yep, I know what it does, it's a great spell. Didn't miss it from my current Seelah who is busy 2-handed chopping stuff with Improved Mythic Vital Strike at level 14 though. She's almost never targeted because the AI is focusing on my front line tanks or trying (and failing) to rush Waljif and dying to AoOs.

Her role isn't to tank for me, she Marks targets and kills stuff instead.

So… you don’t know what it does lol

You fuckers really don’t even bother reading your spellbooks, do you? Unbelievable.

At no point did I think 'I wish my Seelah did substantially less damage and had fewer feats so she could get DR/10 and give my front-liners a +4 deflection bonus they already have, or maybe give them an extra +1 to their saves that their cloaks give them.'

It's DR/10 Evil, too

 

[Yosharian]

Since you’re delayed caster the CL boost from additional levels is gold and there’s more great 4th level spells than you could ever hope to cast.

You mean regular Paladin Spells? I dunno, I'd say only Holy Sword, Crusader's Edge and Eaglesoul are worth casting. Bestow the Grace of the Champion would be good too, were it not exclusive to Lawful Good characters only (so only potentially the MC or a Merc). Resounding Blow might also have been good if it didn't allow a Save, and as a Paladin, the DC on your Spells is probably going to be rather pathetic for that stage in the game. Other Spells on that level should be cast by your Cleric/Oracle.

Dipping into another Class might provide more benefits than getting more casts of those Spells, but since I never bothered with Paladins prior to WotR, I have no idea what they synergize with. Maybe a 1-level dip into Thug for Frightening if you have Dazzling Display/Cornugon smash?

In case you are not aware of this, Bestow Grace (not the Champion version) stacks with Paladin aura

 

[Stoned Ape]

They already have it because they’re burning 12 item slots. The Aura frees those up. Do I have to explain everything to you retards?

You do know that there's a first level divine spell that gives a deflection bonus that scales up to +5? Do you even read your spellbook?

Also, I have literally no cloaks that are not cloaks of resistance that my frontliners would benefit from wearing. By the time that I do, Lann will be able to cast Greater Angelic Aspect so Seelah won't have to. It's called building a party, retard. You should try it sometime.

 

[Stoned Ape]

Reg does his damage with Full Attacks and a lot of iteratives (as does Wolj and the way I build Seelah and Greybor). As I’ve tried to point out Sosiel can do good damage this way and Lann and Aru can light up fleeing mobs (helps to put down difficult terrain so they don’t run too far/fast) but if you want full AoO value you’d need a two-hander MC (or oddly enough Trevor who’s kind of a joke but can still hit pretty hard).

Two-handed long weapon is kind of a no-brainer, I'll likely have to spend most of the time behind the tank. What would be the best weapon for that? Glaive is the choice that seems the most convenient because there are some pretty good enchanted ones you can get fairly early (e.g. Soulshear), but I've seen a lot people consider them a sub-par choice.

There are a lot of decent glaives and the MC can read a book early on which gives an additional +1 to hit with them which stacks with everything so they're not a bad choice (particularly for a Trickster who can boost their critical threat range until it's not awful).

You can craft a great relic bardiche in chapter 3, and get hold of even better ones later on. Overall, I prefer bardiches to glaives as a base weapon, and the best bardiches are better than the best glaives.

I've not found many useful fauchards in game. The best one I found inflicts d6 damage on the wielder with each hit, so you might want to take levels of Barbarian to mitigate that if you choose to go with them.

There's a really great longspear you can find late game, but it works best if you're mounted and you get it so late it's really not worth building a character around.

 

[Lambach]

There are a lot of decent glaives and the MC can read a book early on which gives an additional +1 to hit with them which stacks with everything so they're not a bad choice (particularly for a Trickster who can boost their critical threat range until it's not awful).

You can craft a great relic bardiche in chapter 3, and get hold of even better ones later on. Overall, I prefer bardiches to glaives as a base weapon, and the best bardiches are better than the best glaives.

I've not found many useful fauchards in game. The best one I found inflicts d6 damage on the wielder with each hit, so you might want to take levels of Barbarian to mitigate that if you choose to go with them.

There's a really great longspear you can find late game, but it works best if you're mounted and you get it so late it's really not worth building a character around.

Are Greatswords any good? I'll have to spend a Feat to be able to use any of those weapons you mentioned, and I think this build will be pretty Feat-starved early on. I was hoping to mitigate that a bit by picking the Leader Background that gives you Greatsword Proficiency. AFAIK, there are sadly no Backgrounds that give Proficiency in either Glaives, Bardiches or Fauchards.

 

[Stoned Ape]

Spoiler

There are a lot of decent glaives and the MC can read a book early on which gives an additional +1 to hit with them which stacks with everything so they're not a bad choice (particularly for a Trickster who can boost their critical threat range until it's not awful).

You can craft a great relic bardiche in chapter 3, and get hold of even better ones later on. Overall, I prefer bardiches to glaives as a base weapon, and the best bardiches are better than the best glaives.

I've not found many useful fauchards in game. The best one I found inflicts d6 damage on the wielder with each hit, so you might want to take levels of Barbarian to mitigate that if you choose to go with them.

There's a really great longspear you can find late game, but it works best if you're mounted and you get it so late it's really not worth building a character around.

Are Greatswords any good? I'll have to spend a Feat to be able to use any of those weapons you mentioned, and I think this build will be pretty Feat-starved early on. I was hoping to mitigate that a bit by picking the Leader Background that gives you Greatsword Proficiency. AFAIK, there are sadly no Backgrounds that give Proficiency in either Glaives, Bardiches or Fauchards.

There's very decent one you can buy after you clear Wintersun and save the blind lady. If you talk to her when she becomes village chief she has some decent items for sale (I think you have to exit then enter the chief's lodge before the dialogue option to ask for the store appears).

There is also meant to be a really good one you can buy in chapter 5 from the Drezen blacksmith.

 

[Desiderius]

Since you’re delayed caster the CL boost from additional levels is gold and there’s more great 4th level spells than you could ever hope to cast.

You mean regular Paladin Spells? I dunno, I'd say only Holy Sword, Crusader's Edge and Eaglesoul are worth casting. Bestow the Grace of the Champion would be good too, were it not exclusive to Lawful Good characters only (so only potentially the MC or a Merc). Resounding Blow might also have been good if it didn't allow a Save, and as a Paladin, the DC on your Spells is probably going to be rather pathetic for that stage in the game. Other Spells on that level should be cast by your Cleric/Oracle.

Dipping into another Class might provide more benefits than getting more casts of those Spells, but since I never bothered with Paladins prior to WotR, I have no idea what they synergize with. Maybe a 1-level dip into Thug for Frightening if you have Dazzling Display/Cornugon smash?

First level you want as many Divine Favors as you can get, but the Veils are also great in this setting and last forever. Bless Weapon autoconfirms crits, Unbreakable Heart is always good to have up.

Second level Pal Bestow is CHR to saves on any Good. Effortless Armor gives you +10 speed and helps your Mobility mounted, Splendor is no brainer.

Third level is Archon’s, MWG (frees up slots on casters), Delay/Resist Communal (same), and Prayer (which is no save)

Fourth level:

Angelic, Greater; Burst of Glory (mass Aid, except the AB bonus is Sacred), Chains of Light (bypasses SR, Reflex save), Edge, Death Ward, Eaglesoul (+2 Sacred AC, +4 Sacred STR, +5 Sacred Persuasion, +2 initiative, autoconfirm crits, fast healing 2), Holy Sword (+5 Holy any weapon - not personal), Inspiring Recovery (res, AoE Morale + 2 AB/dam/saves, perfect for coming from behind in cutscene fights, ambushes), Resounding Blow triggers *on every hit* for rnd/lvl and its Evocation so if you grab Mythic Focus for Archon’s it can get there since Edge Sickens for an additional -2 malus on saves on top of Shaken, Resto

Why do people assume most spells are trash? Not this ruleset.

 

[Desiderius]

Angel gets a + 4 Longspear early ch 3 which is kind of boring but a nice enhancement at that point. Good for classes like Oracle that don’t get Martial Prof.

 

[Haplo]

I personally like having as many casts of Mark of Justice as possible, so if I were to dip into another Class, I'd do it later in the game.

It doesn't seem that the stuff you get as a Paladin after level 14 is particularly Earth-shattering, so maybe that would be the cut-off point. Though keep in mind that if you selected the Mount over Weapon Bond at level 5, the Mount's level is equal to Paladin level, so it will be less useful the more you dip. I remember there was a Feat in NwN 2 you could take to boost your Animal Companion's level by up to +4, not sure if there's something similar in Pathfinder.

Boon Companion. Its in the game, sure. I think it might even be bugged and add +5 pet levels.

Besides ramping important feats and mutagen, going fighter 5 will get you Fighter Training (generaly +3 to hit and damage with gloves), unlock the likes of Fighter's Finesse, Effortless Dual Wielding and such and, last but not least, unlock Weapon Specialization - which, while not spectacular on its own, with Mythic WS offers up to +7 damage, multiplied on crits - not bad.

Alternatively, if you're mounted and just want to ramp Shatter Defenses, 3 levels in Gendarme Order of the Cockatrice are good - those are 3 feats (with free Dazzling Display at level 2) and +2 AB vs Shaken targets from Braggart.

 

[Haplo]

Reg does his damage with Full Attacks and a lot of iteratives (as does Wolj and the way I build Seelah and Greybor). As I’ve tried to point out Sosiel can do good damage this way and Lann and Aru can light up fleeing mobs (helps to put down difficult terrain so they don’t run too far/fast) but if you want full AoO value you’d need a two-hander MC (or oddly enough Trevor who’s kind of a joke but can still hit pretty hard).

Two-handed long weapon is kind of a no-brainer, I'll likely have to spend most of the time behind the tank. What would be the best weapon for that? Glaive is the choice that seems the most convenient because there are some pretty good enchanted ones you can get fairly early (e.g. Soulshear), but I've seen a lot people consider them a sub-par choice.

There are a lot of decent glaives and the MC can read a book early on which gives an additional +1 to hit with them which stacks with everything so they're not a bad choice (particularly for a Trickster who can boost their critical threat range until it's not awful).

You can craft a great relic bardiche in chapter 3, and get hold of even better ones later on. Overall, I prefer bardiches to glaives as a base weapon, and the best bardiches are better than the best glaives.

I've not found many useful fauchards in game. The best one I found inflicts d6 damage on the wielder with each hit, so you might want to take levels of Barbarian to mitigate that if you choose to go with them.

There's a really great longspear you can find late game, but it works best if you're mounted and you get it so late it's really not worth building a character around.

Glaives suck with their sparse baseline 20 crits.
Bardiches are very niche. The only one worth using for some extremly exotic (but interesting) builds is Death's Consonant, which is Int based.

For 99% of builds out there, the fauchard will be superior simply by virtue of critting 50% more (and 200% more then glaives). Some builds can mitigate/regen the Bearer of Sorrows self-damage - and then its a neat weapon. Personally not a fan. But the trusty Finnean will work just fine as a fauchard - and with its Brilliant Energy enchantment you'll be able to use Power Attack without fearing the reduced accuracy.


If you consider an AoO focused character, Trickster with Mobility Trick 2 could have you covered and offer unique gameplay (not necessarily eveyone's cup of tea, though).
Curently playing around with some variations of that. But BigArdGaming made a stat optimized version:
https://www.reddit.com/r/Pathfinder...crit_dmg_per_aoo_46_aoo_per_round_30k_dpr_ss/

He went with Sword Saint, but its possible with different classes (though a level 11 SS has the advantage of highest number of posible AoOs per round).

 

[Lambach]

Third level is Archon’s

Yes, but.

Chains of Light (bypasses SR, Reflex save),

DC = 17

I don't really understand the point of these offensive Spells on Paladins. If you're building your Paladin in such a way that he can reliably beat enemy Saves, all you're getting is just a very gimped Cleric.

Death Ward, Resto

No reason for the Paladin to waste slots on this, that's the Cleric's/Oracle's job.

Angelic, Greater

Shield of Faith gives you the same Deflection bonus, the DR of 10 isn't really impressive at the point in the game when you get the Spell (though putting a Stoneskin on top of it ain't half bad), you don't need a bonus on Saves against poison when there's a way to make yourself immune to it via Communal Delay Poison which is a long-lasting buff. The bonus to all Saves against Evil in an AoE is nice, though.

Resounding Blow triggers *on every hit* for rnd/lvl,

This one is objectively trash, because the earliest you can get it is at level 13, and you'd have to squint real hard to notice a difference from getting an additional 1d6 damage per hit at that point in the game. Good luck trying to Stagger anything with it too.

 

[Haplo]

Resounding Blow triggers *on every hit* for rnd/lvl,

This one is objectively trash, because the earliest you can get it is at level 13, and you'd have to squint real hard to notice a difference from getting an additional 1d6 damage per hit at that point in the game. Good luck trying to Stagger anything with it too.

I mostly agree, but the last one might not be as bad as it looks. As usually the case in Owlcat games, the extra damage instance may proc some additional damage sources. Specifically bane - like the one from Crusader's Edge. Note I'm not sure it does that. For sure it procs Inquisitor / Aeon bane - but those are kinda getting baked into the weapon. Crusader's Edge might be a separate effect and not work the same way.
But doesn't Paladin get bane eventually from his Weapon Bond by any chance?

 

[Lambach]

But doesn't Paladin get bane eventually from his Weapon Bond by any chance?

I went with the Horse with Seelah (which turned out to be a good decision, he's the tankiest member of the party), but according to the Wiki, no.

Alternatively, they can be used to add any of the following weapon properties: axiomatic, brilliant energy, disruption, flaming, flaming burst, holy, keen, and speed.

 

[Haplo]

But doesn't Paladin get bane eventually from his Weapon Bond by any chance?

I went with the Horse with Seelah (which turned out to be a good decision, he's the tankiest member of the party), but according to the Wiki, no.

Alternatively, they can be used to add any of the following weapon properties: axiomatic, brilliant energy, disruption, flaming, flaming burst, holy, keen, and speed.

I think Axiomatic and Holy could also work, worth checking. But yeah, the horsie is better.

 

[Stoned Ape]

Spoiler

There are a lot of decent glaives and the MC can read a book early on which gives an additional +1 to hit with them which stacks with everything so they're not a bad choice (particularly for a Trickster who can boost their critical threat range until it's not awful).

You can craft a great relic bardiche in chapter 3, and get hold of even better ones later on. Overall, I prefer bardiches to glaives as a base weapon, and the best bardiches are better than the best glaives.

I've not found many useful fauchards in game. The best one I found inflicts d6 damage on the wielder with each hit, so you might want to take levels of Barbarian to mitigate that if you choose to go with them.

There's a really great longspear you can find late game, but it works best if you're mounted and you get it so late it's really not worth building a character around.

Are Greatswords any good? I'll have to spend a Feat to be able to use any of those weapons you mentioned, and I think this build will be pretty Feat-starved early on. I was hoping to mitigate that a bit by picking the Leader Background that gives you Greatsword Proficiency. AFAIK, there are sadly no Backgrounds that give Proficiency in either Glaives, Bardiches or Fauchards.

Also, forgot to mention that you can get a Warhammer +3 (d12/19-20 crit x3) that you could obviously choose to wield in 2 hands. It works out well vs. Greatswords due to improved crit multiplier.

There's also an interesting relic, a corrosive-burst Greataxe +2 that gets an extra +3 to hit and double crit threat range for AoO, or another version of it that has anyone can wield without proficiency that has an extended threat range of 18-20 vs slowed opponents.

 

[Yosharian]

• Mobility 1: Enemies AoO is triggered but not spent, which means it can be triggered indefinitely

What the fuck is he talking about

Triggered indefinitely?

 

[Stoned Ape]

• Mobility 1: Enemies AoO is triggered but not spent, which means it can be triggered indefinitely

What the fuck is he talking about

Triggered indefinitely?

As far as I remember, the enemy tries to do an AoO, but gets interruped by the Trickster doing one on it instead, so the enemy still has an AoO left.

A Trickster can do this as many times in a round as it has AoOs available*.

Trickster could also combine bashing finish + the 'I only roll 20s' spell for infinite attacks.

https://www.reddit.com/r/Pathfinder.../bashing_finish_turns_into_a_vibrating_death/

I don't know if they've changed those in a patch since I tried it, though

EDIT

*sorry, I remembered wrong, the text (according to wiki) is "Instead of just avoiding attacks of opportunity by your acrobatic movements, you can instead make them yourself every time you avoid one. Enemies count as flat-footed against those attacks - this is unexpected, after all." and it is for Mobility Trick 2, not 1

 

[Haplo]

• Mobility 1: Enemies AoO is triggered but not spent, which means it can be triggered indefinitely

What the fuck is he talking about

Triggered indefinitely?

Trickster could also combine bashing finish + the 'I only roll 20s' spell for infinite attacks.

https://www.reddit.com/r/Pathfinder.../bashing_finish_turns_into_a_vibrating_death/

I don't know if they've changed those in a patch since I tried it, though

Its an end game gimmick, though. And neutered by enemy having Fortification or Crit Immunity.
There is more broken stuff in the game then this - and available earlier.

AFAIK Trickster can score only crits much sooner with Perception 2 and the crit feats and a 18-20 weapon. You get 11-20 crit threat range and if a friendly cleric/inquisitor uses Touch of Law on you (or you do it yourself with domain access), you'll only score 11s for one round.

 

[Yosharian]

Alright let's look at what the wiki says:

Mobility 1

Acrobatic movement to avoid attack of opportunity reduces you movement speed despite the fact that the skill is called mobility. With this unlock this confusing problem is removed - acrobatic movement now instead increases you movement speed by half.

Translation: You gain the benefit of increased movement while trying to move defensively using the Mobility skill.

Mobility 2

Instead of just avoiding attacks of opportunity by your acrobatic movements, you can instead make them yourself every time you avoid one. Enemies count as flat-footed against those attacks - this is unexpected, after all.

Translation: Every time you avoid an attack of opportunity, you can instead make an attack of opportunity against the target that tried to attack you.

Mobility 3

Instead of avoiding just attacks of opportunity, you can now avoid normal attacks too. Every time you are hit by an attack you can attempt a mobility check with a -10 penalty. If the result is higher than the attacker's result, the attack misses.

Translation: Every time you are attacked, you can avoid the attack by succeeding at a Mobility check at -10 penalty, DC = is the attacker's AB roll presumably.

I see nothing in here that states the attack of opportunity is not consumed. He seems to be suggesting that during Mobility 2 events, when you consume the enemy's AOO to instead make your own AOO, their number of AOOs that they can make per round doesn't get used up, so you can continue moving and doing AOOs to them?

 

[Stoned Ape]

Alright let's look at what the wiki says:

Mobility 1

Acrobatic movement to avoid attack of opportunity reduces you movement speed despite the fact that the skill is called mobility. With this unlock this confusing problem is removed - acrobatic movement now instead increases you movement speed by half.

Translation: You gain the benefit of increased movement while trying to move defensively using the Mobility skill.

Mobility 2

Instead of just avoiding attacks of opportunity by your acrobatic movements, you can instead make them yourself every time you avoid one. Enemies count as flat-footed against those attacks - this is unexpected, after all.

Translation: Every time you avoid an attack of opportunity, you can instead make an attack of opportunity against the target that tried to attack you.

Mobility 3

Instead of avoiding just attacks of opportunity, you can now avoid normal attacks too. Every time you are hit by an attack you can attempt a mobility check with a -10 penalty. If the result is higher than the attacker's result, the attack misses.

Translation: Every time you are attacked, you can avoid the attack by succeeding at a Mobility check at -10 penalty, DC = is the attacker's AB roll presumably.

I see nothing in here that states the attack of opportunity is not consumed. He seems to be suggesting that during Mobility 2 events, when you consume the enemy's AOO to instead make your own AOO, their number of AOOs that they can make per round doesn't get used up, so you can continue moving and doing AOOs to them?

That did seem to be how it worked when I ran a Trickster Mutation Warrior.

I could just move around in RTWP mode and keep on getting multiple AoO on the same target as they tried to AoO me.

I don't know if it is still the same now because I have not kept the save and I don't know if they've changed anything with the intervening patches.