Pathfinder Pathfinder: Wrath of the Righteous - Game of the Year Edition

[Desiderius]

Yes, there are some absurd items for Excess. I played the other one for the reward but couldn’t force myself to finish it. When/if they finish Wrath I’ll pick it up. Some pretty good early game ability IIRC.

 

[Lambach]

Lool, so I was about to completely admit defeat and give up on Playful Darkness, until in blind desperation I used Camellia's Summon Swarm and noticed how much damage those little fuckers do to Playful Darkness after my Lich successfully Greater Dispelled him twice.

I still don't fully understand Swarm mechanics, apparently.

 

[Tsubutai]

Finally got round to playing the DLCs. Enjoyed Inevitable Excess quite a bit, but I have no idea what Owlcat were thinking and/or smoking while developing Through the Ashes.

Do you get anything interesting for the main game if you beat them?

For completing Excess, you get a new one-use-per-day ability in all subsequent main campaigns that boosts your attack rolls and damage, spell DCs, DR, elemental resistance, and healing for 10 minutes. There's also a hidden superboss (basically, a supercharged Playful Darkness) that gives you some absurdly powerful items in subsequent main campaigns if you beat it on high enough difficulties, like a +7 ring of protection early in Act 2.

For completing Through the Ashes you get a single shitty wand that makes cold spells slightly better.

 

[Haplo]

Well, I tried to compare the Halfling vs Kistune Master Shapeshifter Trickster Mobility 2 build and I must say the difference isn't funny.

Not only does the Kitsune lead by 4 Dex, 2 Mobility, 10 Speed, 2 Int (skill points!), 4 Con, 4 Str, but also morphing into human means the Size effect of Reduce gets cancelled - while you keep the Dex bonus - but deal A LOT more damage with Vital Strikes in medium size (something like 30% more). Of course it does cost a Mythic Ability... but its a point well spent.

Guess the Kitsune furries really are the Master Race...

 

[Daidre]

Guess the Kitsune furries really are the Master Race...

Unless Owlcat decides one day that Master Shapeshifter was never intended to work with their human form)

 

[Lambach]

I can see now why people complain about Chapter 4.

Both the area and quest design are..... just..... yeah.

I'm only at the start right now, but it does not look promising one bit.

 

[The_Mask]

Guess the Kitsune furries really are the Master Race...

Unless Owlcat decides one day that Master Shapeshifter was never intended to work with their human form)

Maybe *some* bugs should favour the player.

 

[Desiderius]

I can see now why people complain about Chapter 4.

Both the area and quest design are..... just..... yeah.

I'm only at the start right now, but it does not look promising one bit.

I think it’s just a hangover from the Fane slog. Ch 4’s pretty interesting with a lot of hidden side stuff (that’s worth unhiding) once you figure out how to navigate. It’s the Abyss, that shouldn’t be easy.

 

[Desiderius]

Well, I tried to compare the Halfling vs Kistune Master Shapeshifter Trickster Mobility 2 build and I must say the difference isn't funny.

Not only does the Kitsune lead by 4 Dex, 2 Mobility, 10 Speed, 2 Int (skill points!), 4 Con, 4 Str, but also morphing into human means the Size effect of Reduce gets cancelled - while you keep the Dex bonus - but deal A LOT more damage with Vital Strikes in medium size (something like 30% more). Of course it does cost a Mythic Ability... but its a point well spent.

Guess the Kitsune furries really are the Master Race...

Vital Strike doesn’t go with Reduce lol.

Mythics are for changing the game not nickel and diming.

 

[Lambach]

I think it’s just a hangover from the Fane slog. Ch 4’s pretty interesting with a lot of hidden side stuff (that’s worth unhiding) once you figure out how to navigate. It’s the Abyss, that shouldn’t be easy.

I wouldn't describe it as "interesting". For example, the villain that has been hounding me for 2 whole Chapters and something like 30+ hours, while also being a key part of the whole Crusades lore, just got the dumbest, most anti-climatic, immemorable send-off you can possibly imagine. I honestly couldn't believe a team of allegedly professional writers could do something like that.

A whole bunch of new names that are supposed to be important, I guess, suddenly get dumped on you via a Wiki-like wall of text and are made the centerpiece of a a Chapter that takes place more than halfway into the game, with no prior introduction whatsoever. What the fuck is a "Hepzamirah"? Why are we getting our introduction into that supposedly main antagonist of the Chapter through nothing but a couple dozen of lines of text? Deskari at least had the decency to show up in person immediately in order to set the stage of the overall plot. One of the other biggest antagonists of the Chapter, from what I understand from spoiling myself, gets introduced as a random encounter inside a city where you have absolutely no business encountering him and he's all like "ha ha, I am now going to kidnap and experiment on you" and you're just like ".....wtf?" It feels more like the equivalent of that Bosmer wizard just dropping dead from the sky in Morrowind than an actual antagonist you're supposed to feel compelled to purse and defeat.

It's like they tried to shove an entire different game into an already existing, different game, with very little rhyme or reason. I honestly never believed I would utter the words "I miss the Crusade stuff", but here we are.

 

[Parabalus]

I think it’s just a hangover from the Fane slog. Ch 4’s pretty interesting with a lot of hidden side stuff (that’s worth unhiding) once you figure out how to navigate. It’s the Abyss, that shouldn’t be easy.

I wouldn't describe it as "interesting". For example, the villain that has been hounding me for 2 whole Chapters and something like 30+ hours, while also being a key part of the whole Crusades lore, just got the dumbest, most anti-climatic, immemorable send-off you can possibly imagine. I honestly couldn't believe a team of allegedly professional writers could do something like that.

A whole bunch of new names that are supposed to be important, I guess, suddenly get dumped on you via a Wiki-like wall of text and are made the centerpiece of a a Chapter that takes place more than halfway into the game, with no prior introduction whatsoever. What the fuck is a "Hepzamirah"? Why are we getting our introduction into that supposedly main antagonist of the Chapter through nothing but a couple dozen of lines of text? Deskari at least had the decency to show up in person immediately in order to set the stage of the overall plot. One of the other biggest antagonists of the Chapter, from what I understand from spoiling myself, gets introduced as a random encounter inside a city where you have absolutely no business encountering him and he's all like "ha ha, I am now going to kidnap and experiment on you" and you're just like ".....wtf?" It feels more like the equivalent of that Bosmer wizard just dropping dead from the sky in Morrowind than an actual antagonist you're supposed to feel compelled to purse and defeat.

It's like they tried to shove an entire different game into an already existing, different game, with very little rhyme or reason. I honestly never believed I would utter the words "I miss the Crusade stuff", but here we are.

Ch 4 is a nice change of pace IMO, many fresh ideas.

Outside of the exploring being a bit buggy when I played I guess, though I doubt it's better now.

The villain having a somewhat random send-off fits the theme of the Crusades being important to us, but a minor thing / joke to demons at large.

 

[Lambach]

The villain having a somewhat random send-off fits the theme of the Crusades being important to us, but a minor thing / joke to demons at large.

Right, but we are looking at this through the eyes of the Crusaders, so the narrative should be crafted with that in mind.

This would be like saying "It's OK that Sarevok gets his send-off in some unimportant side-quest with zero narrative weight behind it, because his arc is not too important to resurrecting Bhaal".

 

[Desiderius]

I think it’s just a hangover from the Fane slog. Ch 4’s pretty interesting with a lot of hidden side stuff (that’s worth unhiding) once you figure out how to navigate. It’s the Abyss, that shouldn’t be easy.

I wouldn't describe it as "interesting". For example, the villain that has been hounding me for 2 whole Chapters and something like 30+ hours, while also being a key part of the whole Crusades lore, just got the dumbest, most anti-climatic, immemorable send-off you can possibly imagine. I honestly couldn't believe a team of allegedly professional writers could do something like that.

A whole bunch of new names that are supposed to be important, I guess, suddenly get dumped on you via a Wiki-like wall of text and are made the centerpiece of a a Chapter that takes place more than halfway into the game, with no prior introduction whatsoever. What the fuck is a "Hepzamirah"? Why are we getting our introduction into that supposedly main antagonist of the Chapter through nothing but a couple dozen of lines of text? Deskari at least had the decency to show up in person immediately in order to set the stage of the overall plot. One of the other biggest antagonists of the Chapter, from what I understand from spoiling myself, gets introduced as a random encounter inside a city where you have absolutely no business encountering him and he's all like "ha ha, I am now going to kidnap and experiment on you" and you're just like ".....wtf?" It feels more like the equivalent of that Bosmer wizard just dropping dead from the sky in Morrowind than an actual antagonist you're supposed to feel compelled to purse and defeat.

It's like they tried to shove an entire different game into an already existing, different game, with very little rhyme or reason. I honestly never believed I would utter the words "I miss the Crusade stuff", but here we are.

Lol, I'd been clicking through the walls of text for five levels by that point. I'm talking about the hidden areas and the like.

 

[Parabalus]

The villain having a somewhat random send-off fits the theme of the Crusades being important to us, but a minor thing / joke to demons at large.

Right, but we are looking at this through the eyes of the Crusaders, so the narrative should be crafted with that in mind.

This would be like saying "It's OK that Sarevok gets his send-off in some unimportant side-quest with zero narrative weight behind it, because his arc is not too important to resurrecting Bhaal".

It fits the part about you transcending the Crusade perfectly though - what was a concern and challenge ends up as an irrelevant gnat.

 

[Haplo]

I can see now why people complain about Chapter 4.

Both the area and quest design are..... just..... yeah.

I'm only at the start right now, but it does not look promising one bit.

Area design is pretty good IMO.
What got me in Act IV was the combat density (although a lot of this stuff optional, so maybe also my fault). Travelling trough the "city" felt like deep dungeon diving to me.

 

[Haplo]

Well, I tried to compare the Halfling vs Kistune Master Shapeshifter Trickster Mobility 2 build and I must say the difference isn't funny.

Not only does the Kitsune lead by 4 Dex, 2 Mobility, 10 Speed, 2 Int (skill points!), 4 Con, 4 Str, but also morphing into human means the Size effect of Reduce gets cancelled - while you keep the Dex bonus - but deal A LOT more damage with Vital Strikes in medium size (something like 30% more). Of course it does cost a Mythic Ability... but its a point well spent.

Guess the Kitsune furries really are the Master Race...

Vital Strike doesn’t go with Reduce lol.

I guess? I mean those were my teachings, right?
Still with Mythic Vital Strike multiplying bonus damages as well, I though maybe it could work. Still a poor idea (but kitsune shifting to human salvages it somewhat).

 

[Cyberarmy]

I can see now why people complain about Chapter 4.

Both the area and quest design are..... just..... yeah.

I'm only at the start right now, but it does not look promising one bit.

Chapter 4 is mostly OK, annoying part is the map gimmick.
Chapter 5 is the problem.

 

[Stoned Ape]

I can see now why people complain about Chapter 4.

Both the area and quest design are..... just..... yeah.

I'm only at the start right now, but it does not look promising one bit.

I wasn't keen on it during my first playthrough, but subsequently it has become my favourite chapter.

There are a few really good fights, some interesting content locked behind different mythic paths*, and Nocticula is quite amusing.

*I think Angel and Demon get the most content, and Lich the least (at least I don't remember finding anything I've not seen before when I played as one).

 

[Sarathiour]

My biggest issue with chapter 4 is having gimmicky exploration at the cost of absolute dogshit performance.

 

[Desiderius]

Well, I tried to compare the Halfling vs Kistune Master Shapeshifter Trickster Mobility 2 build and I must say the difference isn't funny.

Not only does the Kitsune lead by 4 Dex, 2 Mobility, 10 Speed, 2 Int (skill points!), 4 Con, 4 Str, but also morphing into human means the Size effect of Reduce gets cancelled - while you keep the Dex bonus - but deal A LOT more damage with Vital Strikes in medium size (something like 30% more). Of course it does cost a Mythic Ability... but its a point well spent.

Guess the Kitsune furries really are the Master Race...

Vital Strike doesn’t go with Reduce lol.

I guess? I mean those were my teachings, right?
Still with Mythic Vital Strike multiplying bonus damages as well, I though maybe it could work. Still a poor idea (but kitsune shifting to human salvages it somewhat).

Yes, that’s what I meant. Go big or go small. Mythic VS is great if you’re going big. Maybe.

Exploiting gimmicks (Reduce tricks) that go against that spirit is unnecessary.

I do think the Human Polymorph bonus for Kitsune is WAI as a reasonably funny joke/twist on anthropomorphism. Still not an autoinclude because you lose Pounce/Bite? Costs a Mythic (may be worth it for a couple stat points but might not).

That Mythic is great for the Scion Gold Dragon we were talking about for instance because the polymorphing is the focus of the build and it doesn’t have much else going on (no casting for instance, and Archmage is scaling so can wait until later). And it needs it with giving up the Armor and Weapon item slots.

 

[Haplo]

Well, I'm pondering trying the Trickster Mobility 2 AoO build. No use for Pounce and Bite then. But can certainly use 2 more Mobility. In fact on Hard and above I feel you should squeeze every single skill point you can get to beat the CMD of (mostly) everybody. Makes for a nice change of playstyle - but also another challenge.

 

[IllusiveBrian]

I think it’s just a hangover from the Fane slog. Ch 4’s pretty interesting with a lot of hidden side stuff (that’s worth unhiding) once you figure out how to navigate. It’s the Abyss, that shouldn’t be easy.

I wouldn't describe it as "interesting". For example, the villain that has been hounding me for 2 whole Chapters and something like 30+ hours, while also being a key part of the whole Crusades lore, just got the dumbest, most anti-climatic, immemorable send-off you can possibly imagine. I honestly couldn't believe a team of allegedly professional writers could do something like that.

A whole bunch of new names that are supposed to be important, I guess, suddenly get dumped on you via a Wiki-like wall of text and are made the centerpiece of a a Chapter that takes place more than halfway into the game, with no prior introduction whatsoever. What the fuck is a "Hepzamirah"? Why are we getting our introduction into that supposedly main antagonist of the Chapter through nothing but a couple dozen of lines of text? Deskari at least had the decency to show up in person immediately in order to set the stage of the overall plot. One of the other biggest antagonists of the Chapter, from what I understand from spoiling myself, gets introduced as a random encounter inside a city where you have absolutely no business encountering him and he's all like "ha ha, I am now going to kidnap and experiment on you" and you're just like ".....wtf?" It feels more like the equivalent of that Bosmer wizard just dropping dead from the sky in Morrowind than an actual antagonist you're supposed to feel compelled to purse and defeat.

It's like they tried to shove an entire different game into an already existing, different game, with very little rhyme or reason. I honestly never believed I would utter the words "I miss the Crusade stuff", but here we are.

I had the opposite opinion with Minagho, it felt very power-fantasy that the character who effortlessly beat you in the Prologue gets cornered in a ratty shack and you defeat her relatively easily with the power you've been accruing, no one-time power boost like the first time. By the end of the Drezen siege the game is already indicating that your party all together can beat her, since you effectively do beat her even though she runs, so she'd have to go through the Mythic surgery to be a real threat after that which wouldn't really fit her character. I agree that Hepzamirah just kind of gets thrown in, she hardly gets any development even in Act 4 beyond being a big angry lady that's around sometimes.

 

[Desiderius]

Well, I'm pondering trying the Trickster Mobility 2 AoO build. No use for Pounce and Bite then. But can certainly use 2 more Mobility. In fact on Hard and above I feel you should squeeze every single skill point you can get to beat the CMD of (mostly) everybody. Makes for a nice change of playstyle - but also another challenge.

I find the big chunks (and Shatter lol) help more with the CMs than the little bits here and there, especially when they cost a Mythic. CMs are usually one per round (and save or die) so you can work in True Strike and the like to land them (Touch of Good/Luck are Full Round anyway) on the really hard stuff and shouldn’t need to squeeze out every advantage on regular mobs.

Does the Mobility build use CMs? There are some items you can use to pass the Mobility skill checks.

On Unfair Last Stand seems pretty obligatory and Ever Ready will give you bigger bonuses than the Polymorph. I like Leadership on a non-caster and Rupture as well.

Going down a Feat (vs Human) then needing additional Feats for Finesse and DEX-to-dam all so you can burn an additional Mythic for the Polymorph bonus seems counterproductive.

 

[Desiderius]

I can see now why people complain about Chapter 4.

Both the area and quest design are..... just..... yeah.

I'm only at the start right now, but it does not look promising one bit.

Chapter 4 is mostly OK, annoying part is the map gimmick.
Chapter 5 is the problem.

I was pleasantly surprised by Ch 5, it just was (and is) hard to motivate myself to get through the slog of Fane/Mines to get there. There’s also the fatigue factor you run into in both games. The problem is if you take a break you forget all the strategies/items you were using to get to that point.

Second person may not apply. If I were a better player I could get to the point where those fights were routine as well but alas I’m not, at least on high difficulties.

 

[Haplo]

Well, I'm pondering trying the Trickster Mobility 2 AoO build. No use for Pounce and Bite then. But can certainly use 2 more Mobility. In fact on Hard and above I feel you should squeeze every single skill point you can get to beat the CMD of (mostly) everybody. Makes for a nice change of playstyle - but also another challenge.

I find the big chunks (and Shatter lol) help more with the CMs than the little bits here and there, especially when they cost a Mythic. CMs are usually one per round (and save or die) so you can work in True Strike and the like to land them (Touch of Good/Luck are Full Round anyway) on the really hard stuff and shouldn’t need to squeeze out every advantage on regular mobs.

Does the Mobility build use CMs? There are some items you can use to pass the Mobility skill checks.

On Unfair Last Stand seems pretty obligatory and Ever Ready will give you bigger bonuses than the Polymorph. I like Leadership on a non-caster and Rupture as well.

Going down a Feat (vs Human) then needing additional Feats for Finesse and DEX-to-dam all so you can burn an additional Mythic for the Polymorph bonus seems counterproductive.

You'd be 100% right were it about Combat Maneuvers, Desiderius. But this time, it is not. The Trickster Mobility check to avoid the enemy AoO and counter is Vs CMD. And it can get pretty high... was it 130-ish on Deskari? Or "only" 110-ish?
And I don't think I can use Shatter here. Maybe some CC, like Blindness.

So I'd really need every point here - not only to avoid the enemy attack - but also to trigger own - and even 1 failure vs many enemies means they sped their only AoO and can no longer be provoked that round.