Pathfinder Pathfinder: Wrath of the Righteous - Game of the Year Edition

[Jaedar]

Well I fucking hate Oracle-Paladin in particular for a reason that has noting to do with RP - you either dip into paladin early and destroy your spell progression, or you take it late (18+) when it no longer matters and destroy your Final Revelation x2.

I would not dip paladin if I was building a caster oracle. I would dip one level of oracle for the curse+revelation.

 

[Yosharian]

As for dispelling strike

I can never imagine them actually working with these kind of DCs.

Wat

For painful strike that sickens the target must pass a DC fortitude of 20ish or smth? I think it also scales with INT but in my case I don't have any.
Dispelling strike scales off levels - maybe its DC is viable on hard? But I read somewhere that it can also dispel debuffs, no idea if it's true, I'll try to test.

Well, I have tested dispelling buffs from Gallu Stormcallers in Threshold and it was remarkable how low the DCs were. I can't recall which difficulty it was on when I tested it, but they were as low as 12

 

[Grunker]

re: rp reasons

there’s only the computer and me, and neither of us care

 

[Yosharian]

But when you see something like scaled fist + paladin + oracle + mutation warrior it gets a bit silly from an rp perspective imo.

No it doesn't.

It's fine if you disagree! But well, personally:
Scaled fist: the rp behind this is that you have studied a special form of monkery that requires draconic blood for a long enough time to make your fists as deadly if not deadlier than a sword.
Paladin: RP is you are such a goody goody lawful gooder that a god has chosen to bless you in (exchange for your service in bettering the world)
Oracle: RP is again you were chosen by a god, but in a different way to paladin.
Mutation warrior: you're a warrior who has also devoted lots of time to alchemy to fortify yourself.

So you know, a person who is twice chosen by the gods, has had enough time to master at least 3 separate disciplines and also has a sorcerous bloodline.... for me it strains belief, this is the protag of a bad novel, not an actual human being.

1) you could pick up a level of Scaled Fist just by being tutored by a visiting monk scholar for a month. Easily explained. You incorporate the methods you learned into your fighting style.

2) if being in the service of one god doesn't stretch credulity, I hardly see how being in the service of two does. Furthermore, an Oracle doesn't choose to serve a god. The complications of choosing to serve a LG god while being forced to serve another could be a really rich inspiration for lots of excellent RP.

3) MW again is no big deal, let's say you found an alchemy text and studied it for a few months while you gained those 5 levels.

Many characters in fiction are essentially multiclassed in many different ways - already shown this elsewhere in the thread.

If you personally lack the imagination to figure out how a character might be interested in multiple disciplines then that's your issue, I'm just personally really bored with hearing how multiclass builds aren't good for RP.

 

[Yosharian]

And as Grunker pointed out, this is without even considering the fact that it's a SINGLE PLAYER CRPG where this particular kind of 'RP' is basically fucking optional. The game itself doesn't give a flying fuck if you dipped Scaled Fist.

 

[AwesomeButton]

re: rp reasons

there’s only the computer and me, and neither of us care

It's your little secret.

 

[Average Manatee]

And as Grunker pointed out, this is without even considering the fact that it's a SINGLE PLAYER CRPG where this particular kind of 'RP' is basically fucking optional. The game itself doesn't give a flying fuck if you dipped Scaled Fist.

The game also doesn't care if you cheat, or play on Story mode. But there are rules that civilized people follow despite not being enforced.

 

[Grunker]

And as Grunker pointed out, this is without even considering the fact that it's a SINGLE PLAYER CRPG where this particular kind of 'RP' is basically fucking optional. The game itself doesn't give a flying fuck if you dipped Scaled Fist.

The game also doesn't care if you cheat, or play on Story mode. But there are rules that civilized people follow despite not being enforced.

I care about cheating - both "the computer" and "me" are part of mondblut's quote (and so does the computer, arguably; by "computer" mondblut was refering to how the computer responds if you act within its programming - to cheat, you have to change that programming)

There's nothing cheating about not giving a shit about "rp reasons" when the game itself doesn't recognize those things

Once an rpg does - I'll care about it

If mechanics don't reflect something you're doing, you're just larping at that point anyway

 

[Grunker]

The entire purpose of the quote isn't to say "Paladin code bullshit." It's actually kind of the opposite if you recall what comes before the part I quoted. The point is that as long as the game doesn't recognize those things, they really aren't there. Loads of modern RPGs recognize the Paladin's code now - Pathfinder included - which is what Mondblut's original quote was about, ironically.

I can understand people not respeccing companions like I do even I don't mind myself, because at least the games often reference these things in dialogue if nothing else (and you have to edit normal game behaviour to achieve it). But not taking a multiclass you're interested in seems counter to the game's vision. Especially seeing that dipping is rarely (sometimes it is, I'll grant you) as cheesey in PF as it is 3.5. Desiderius may be an insufferable autist but he's right that pure-classing is way, waaaaay better in PF that in its predecessor (and also more interesting to build than in 3.5).

 

[Yosharian]

Civilized people lmao. Fucking dork.

Also nobody thinks actual cheating is analogous to dipping Monk you absolute tool.

 

[Jaedar]

And as Grunker pointed out, this is without even considering the fact that it's a SINGLE PLAYER CRPG where this particular kind of 'RP' is basically fucking optional. The game itself doesn't give a flying fuck if you dipped Scaled Fist.

re: rp reasons

there’s only the computer and me, and neither of us care

As I said, it's fine if you disagree, I'm just stating my opinion. For multiclassing I think it is entirely fine to just do whatever you want, and as I said, I do multiclass heavily with "my" characters. But if I tried to do it irl with a gm and the gm said "lol nope" I would also not be upset. Some people like to bring that into the crpg, some don't, I do a little bit.

If you personally lack the imagination to figure out how a character might be interested in multiple disciplines then that's your issue, I'm just personally really bored with hearing how multiclass builds aren't good for RP.

Interested yes, but it seems you and I have a very different understanding of how much effort is required to have it be roleplayingly justified to take a level in another class. I have never played the pnp so I don't actually know, but my understanding is that the bar tends to be set at "devoted fullheartedly to it for years", not "opportunistically studied it for a month while also adventuring full time". And a lot of classes demand not just your character do something, but that the world warps around them (like gaining a sorcerous bloodline, or pretending several gods wuv you enough to layer rare blessings).

I am fine with warping my character and mercs, I am not fine with rewriting Regills backstory to include his grandmother fucking a dragon. If you are fine with it, or willing to just separate mechanics/story, then go ahead, I'm not going to condemn you for it.

I would prefer an rpg so fully featured that there would be no need to larp these sorts of things, but we are not there yet, aside from maybe games like Gothic where you just can't be both a mage and a paladin because the organizations in charge just won't let you. But such games also have nowhere near the mechanical complexity and build variety of PF...

if being in the service of one god doesn't stretch credulity, I hardly see how being in the service of two does. Furthermore, an Oracle doesn't choose to serve a god. The complications of choosing to serve a LG god while being forced to serve another could be a really rich inspiration for lots of excellent RP.

I personally think it is weird if one god decides to "double dip" blessings on a single person, and if two do it it hints at some type of god rivalry/alliance that should have repercussions in the actual game world. Again, fine if you disagree.

The point is that as long as the game doesn't recognize those things, they really aren't there.

Again: this is fair and valid. But some people find it more fun to pretend that the world portrayed has millions of people living in it, and not just hundreds of collections of pixels with 3 different lines, and a few dozen pixel constallations with a few hundreds or thousands of lines. And you know, that the stuff that isn't in the game, but are said to exist in universe exist even if it's not in game and that things don't just phase out of existence when they leave the worldwound.

 

[Grunker]

Jaedar, bro, read what I’m saying. Your GM saying “nope” is the equivalent of the computer recognizing “rp reasons” i.e. then the mondblut quote wouldn’t apply, because the “rp reasons” would actually be reflected mechanically

some people find it more fun to pretend

yes. we call them dirty, disgusting larpers who play TES games

 

[Yosharian]

You're just flat out wrong, absolutely no way does a character have to spend years training at a monastery in order to take a level in Monk. That's just ridiculous.

 

[Daidre]

You're just flat out wrong, absolutely no way does a character have to spend years training at a monastery in order to take a level in Monk. That's just ridiculous.

Previously I would have argued that you'd need at least some source of formal training (like a banal traveling master), but it is just a moot point in the game where we have literal cavemen labeled as Monk just because he got a disciplined mindset.

 

[razvedchiki]

zen archer increases its damage dice independent of the weapon, so you could equip shortbows and be as good as if you had a long bow.

 

[Yosharian]

I am fine with warping my character and mercs, I am not fine with rewriting Regills backstory to include his grandmother fucking a dragon. If you are fine with it, or willing to just separate mechanics/story, then go ahead, I'm not going to condemn you for it.

Yeah this part I do understand more. I'm also reluctant to do this, but I will anyway if I'm really keen on a particular build.

 

[Yosharian]

You're just flat out wrong, absolutely no way does a character have to spend years training at a monastery in order to take a level in Monk. That's just ridiculous.

Previously I would have argued that you'd need at least some source of formal training (like a banal traveling master), but it is just a moot point in the game where we have literal cavemen labeled as Monk just because he got a disciplined mindset.

What's banal about it =(

 

[IHaveHugeNick]

Adding "points" you gained from "levels" is obviously an abstract representation of years you spent training in that monastery, so don't see how dipping 1 level into Sensei would prevent anybody from larping.

That said, the Pathfinder implementation of multi-classing is a complete and utter clusterfuck, but that's beside the point.

 

[Daidre]

What's banal about it =(

Shortcut of RP justifications.

Not that it is needed in Wrath where we have people from all over the world participating in the crusade and can even invite some real monk orders into our army.
Still, my RP-creativity surrenders when I try to explain where Sohei or Nomad Lann got his Horse under the ground. Well, maybe it had fallen on his head from above right before my MC did the the same.

 

[Grunker]

OK, instead of respeccing Camellia and Ember I decided to just push Cackle a bit ahead in the order, and Hexes are much more fun and useful with that early (I had somehow missed that it was a Move action). So guess I'm keeping them as is for now.

I guess I'll be using Nenio to scribe Greater Invis scroll in camp as a patch.

 

[Humbaba]

When did they give Wenduag a tail? Also there's first aid kits now. Neat. Performance is a lot better since I last played in January, that's also cool.

 

[Jaedar]

Jaedar, bro, read what I’m saying. Your GM saying “nope” is the equivalent of the computer recognizing “rp reasons” i.e. then the mondblut quote wouldn’t apply, because the “rp reasons” would actually be reflected mechanically

some people find it more fun to pretend

yes. we call them dirty, disgusting larpers who play TES games

Yeah but like, you'll always have to pretend/larp a little bit. Otherwise killing millions with a magical plague is not even decreasing a number in the computer half the time, or you know, play a spreadsheet simulator.

In an ideal world there would be no need, but I find a little good will goes a long way to increase my enjoyment...

 

[Grunker]

Man Vescavor's Confusion aura bugs the fuck out of mounted characters. Can't even skip their turn if they roll some results

 

[Jaedar]

Man Vescavor's Confusion aura bugs the fuck out of mounted characters. Can't even skip their turn if they roll some results

That sounds new, although there have always been occasions where the turn based mode freezes and you need to switch to rtwp for a second or two to unstuck it.

 

[Grunker]

Man Vescavor's Confusion aura bugs the fuck out of mounted characters. Can't even skip their turn if they roll some results

That sounds new, although there have always been occasions where the turn based mode freezes and you need to switch to rtwp for a second or two to unstuck it.

That method only works here if you also unpause, so it doesn't seem like the "usual" TB bug. Also it happens way to frequently and only with confused, mounted characters.