Pathfinder Pathfinder: Wrath of the Righteous - Game of the Year Edition

[user]

Scimitars can be Finessed with Dervish Dance?

Which isn't in the game.

It is in Tabletop tweaks, which most people probably use. I can't see a reason not to. Why not make a great game even better?

Yeah, Tabletop tweaks and even Mythics reworked is the real EE we deserve. Bless Vek

 

[Tony]

Is the new version worth playing now if I played through the game in the last three months? Or should I wait for the rest of the DLC to be released and all the mods I like and use to catch up first?

There's nothing new in the EE so if you're asking about new content, no

Thank you. Am I correct in there being three more DLC are slated to come out still?

 

[Jaedar]

Protective Luck is kind of a trap (too narrow for the Action Econ required unless you’ve mastered Cackle or are exploiting it pre-combat)

Not sure what you mean by mastered cackle. It's a half move action that resets all your hexes. It is admittedly not perfect that it takes a turn or two to set up your hexes, but it's also a lot of power to get infinite many times per day.

Anyway, the point wasn't just Greater Invis in isolation, but more that there are "haste-great invis-whatever"-like holes in the spell list overall.

This is very true, the witch spell list sucks. You can get a few decent things, but mostly I wound up just casting hellfire ray for 1k damage per turn (and cackling for the other half action).

 

[Grunker]

Protective Luck is kind of a trap (too narrow for the Action Econ required unless you’ve mastered Cackle or are exploiting it pre-combat)

Not sure what you mean by mastered cackle. It's a half move action that resets all your hexes. It is admittedly not perfect that it takes a turn or two to set up your hexes, but it's also a lot of power to get infinite many times per day.

Anyway, the point wasn't just Greater Invis in isolation, but more that there are "haste-great invis-whatever"-like holes in the spell list overall.

This is very true, the witch spell list sucks. You can get a few decent things, but mostly I wound up just casting hellfire ray for 1k damage per turn (and cackling for the other half action).

Problem is, if I convert to something like Shaman + [something other than witch] I lose Death Ward :D

2 caster party mind wrackers here

 

[Desiderius]

Protective Luck is kind of a trap (too narrow for the Action Econ required unless you’ve mastered Cackle or are exploiting it pre-combat)

Not sure what you mean by mastered cackle. It's a half move action that resets all your hexes. It is admittedly not perfect that it takes a turn or two to set up your hexes, but it's also a lot of power to get infinite many times per day.

Anyway, the point wasn't just Greater Invis in isolation, but more that there are "haste-great invis-whatever"-like holes in the spell list overall.

This is very true, the witch spell list sucks. You can get a few decent things, but mostly I wound up just casting hellfire ray for 1k damage per turn (and cackling for the other half action).

There are no half-actions. Depending on how you’re playing there’s often better things you can be doing with your Standard Action than making one creature slightly (or substantially depending on AB/AC involved) less hittable for one round. That calculation only pops up on my Combat Log about once every twenty lines by midgame if that, and unless I’m playing Unfair it’s not the main thing I’m worried about when it does.

Cackle is a Move Action but so is, you know, moving and since your Hellfire Ray (which doesn’t really become relevant until CL 15 with no Sneaks and slow Meta) is close range (as is Cackle itself!) that ends up being something that’s pretty expensive to give up. Add to it that Protective Luck itself is Medium Range and you can end up blowing a lot of turns on simple positioning until you get the hang of it/come up with a good plan for different situations.

The Spellbook is fine. It’s got enough for a good Conjuror, Necromancer, and/or Enchanter (with Ember’s personal spell) and even an Abjurer. With item support Ember can even be a decent if not great (slow meta) Evoker.

It’s just missing some things people have gotten used to from Wiz/Sorc while giving you some things (Heal/Cure/Death Ward/etc) Wiz/Sorc doesn’t get while also adding Hex options unavailable to Shaman (Bites for team, autoshaken at Medium range, 60 ft non-Poison Nauseate, resourceless Rez). It makes for a good third caster to supplement Arcane and Divine for a caster-heavy party.

 

[Stoned Ape]

Problem is, if I convert to something like Shaman + [something other than witch] I lose Death Ward :D

2 caster party mind wrackers here

You could always grab a level of Loremaster for a cleric spell if you're just after Death Ward

 

[Grunker]

Problem is, if I convert to something like Shaman + [something other than witch] I lose Death Ward :D

2 caster party mind wrackers here

You could always grab a level of Loremaster for a cleric spell if you're just after Death Ward

Yeah, deffo could. Was wondering if that was worth it but it just might be. Or I keep Witch to max out on the natural attacks memes (she gives +1 bite with the beast hex)

 

[Stoned Ape]

Just no. You can get Death Ward any number of other places.

He can't if he's going with something close to what he wants as his current class selections, that's exactly the point.

 

[Alter Sack]

Thank you. Am I correct in there being three more DLC are slated to come out still?

Yep, still more waiting before the final version is released.

I for my part know that I don't play the game again for three extra dlc.

So I have to wait till the game is 'complete' before starting to play.

 

[Desiderius]

Just no. You can get Death Ward any number of other places.

He can't if he's going with something close to what he wants as his current class selections, that's exactly the point.

I know but splashing should be last resort not first. Not worth it for something you can get (or avoid needing) other ways.

 

[Haplo]

Protective Luck is kind of a trap (too narrow for the Action Econ required unless you’ve mastered Cackle or are exploiting it pre-combat) and Misfortune does nothing on made Saves (with few ways to buff Hex DC).

Protective Luck is a huge lifesaver.

 

[Jaedar]

Problem is, if I convert to something like Shaman + [something other than witch] I lose Death Ward :D

Yeah, death ward is mandatory. For obvious reasons.

Cackle is a Move Action but so is, you know, moving and since your Hellfire Ray (which doesn’t really become relevant until CL 15 with no Sneaks and slow Meta) is close range (as is Cackle itself!) that ends up being something that’s pretty expensive to give up. Add to it that Protective Luck itself is Medium Range and you can end up blowing a lot of turns on simple positioning until you get the hang of it/come up with a good plan for different situations.

I've never had problems getting ember or camel into position in a single turn, and then just cackle+spellcast/bonus hex on subsequent turns. And you know, you don't need to keep it up 100% of the time, but it's super helpful against the big guys like Balors and so on. Not to mention bosses.

 

[gurugeorge]

https://www.neoseeker.com/pathfinder-wrath-of-the-righteous/builds/Melee_Lich_Legend#Caster_Oracle

Same pile of shit like any Neoseeker build)

What's wrong with neoseeker builds? I never used them mind you, but the guide was the best place to look up info on the various mythics during early launch, and possibly still is. Also a decent way to quickly check with archetypes are worth a damn.

They're generally allergic to rp sensibilities, they're pure min-max builds for highest difficulty, to they tend to be Frankenstein's monsters from the rp point of view.

 

[Desiderius]

Protective Luck is kind of a trap (too narrow for the Action Econ required unless you’ve mastered Cackle or are exploiting it pre-combat) and Misfortune does nothing on made Saves (with few ways to buff Hex DC).

Protective Luck is a huge lifesaver.

If you’re Voltronning sure, but single target one round duration Standard Actions had better be. With full party outside of a couple specific fights (or very early game Leopard tanking) I’ve got better things to do, and those fights can be handled other ways/Protective Luck might not even be enough.

 

[Desiderius]

https://www.neoseeker.com/pathfinder-wrath-of-the-righteous/builds/Melee_Lich_Legend#Caster_Oracle

Same pile of shit like any Neoseeker build)

What's wrong with neoseeker builds? I never used them mind you, but the guide was the best place to look up info on the various mythics during early launch, and possibly still is. Also a decent way to quickly check with archetypes are worth a damn.

They're generally allergic to rp sensibilities, they're pure min-max builds for highest difficulty, to they tend to be Frankenstein's monsters from the rp point of view.

Love how this ruleset beclowns facile powergamers but it makes gaming websites even more garbage than usual. Their business model doesn’t allow their writers the time to master any one particular game and their instincts were all formed by games/rulesets that this one was in large part designed to supplant (in order to make rp/skills-based play more relatively effective).

 

[Desiderius]

Problem is, if I convert to something like Shaman + [something other than witch] I lose Death Ward :D

Yeah, death ward is mandatory. For obvious reasons.

Cackle is a Move Action but so is, you know, moving and since your Hellfire Ray (which doesn’t really become relevant until CL 15 with no Sneaks and slow Meta) is close range (as is Cackle itself!) that ends up being something that’s pretty expensive to give up. Add to it that Protective Luck itself is Medium Range and you can end up blowing a lot of turns on simple positioning until you get the hang of it/come up with a good plan for different situations.

I've never had problems getting ember or camel into position in a single turn, and then just cackle+spellcast/bonus hex on subsequent turns. And you know, you don't need to keep it up 100% of the time, but it's super helpful against the big guys like Balors and so on. Not to mention bosses.

Yes, that’s the point - those are the fights you should be saving your high level casts for, and those have a bigger impact than Protective Luck. Cuts against the logic of Hexes in the first place, which is giving you an alternative action econ to save those casts. Even among Hexes Ember has Delicious Fright to apply Shaken for Shatter even on made save and they both have Evil Eye to reduce AC/saves/AB by 4 or 6 plus Cam has Hampering that works on everything.

Crusader has Death Ward and you can also get it from an item/use resto/get your saves up/Ice Body/Gaze Immunity etc.

It’s not worth wrecking your class progression just to get another copy. It’s just an example of something Witch has that Wiz doesn’t.

 

[Corbin Dallas Multipass]

It'd be nice if you could just edit your posts to add more thoughts rather than double and triple posting constantly, I know having literally half the posts on this particular thread is apparently not enough for you but some of us might like to read what other people have to say, and having to go through five pages of "Everyone else is playing games wrong" to get to an actually relevant comment gets a bit old.

So I'm currently trying a new MC, this time as a zen archer. Basically I'm going for a mainly ranged party to play in rtwp mode rather than turn based, it was just too slow for me. Is Zen Archer actually the best option for a mostly autoattacking ranged fighter? My thought was that the damage on ki arrows with an enlarged person bow user would be the best way to get consistent high ranged damage along with not needing dex for accuracy, so I could just focus on STR and WIS for offense and defense respectively. And having the option to get an extra attack several times per rest obviously comes in handy for tougher encounters. But the fact that bows need a natural 20 for crits makes me wonder if this was really the best option for high damage.

The fact that I'm duplicating Lann's class is also not exactly ideal, although if I'm gonna duplicate a companion he does seem like one of the best options.

What's the current gimmicky meta build for archery? Am I way off with a zen archer?

 

[gurugeorge]

https://www.neoseeker.com/pathfinder-wrath-of-the-righteous/builds/Melee_Lich_Legend#Caster_Oracle

Same pile of shit like any Neoseeker build)

What's wrong with neoseeker builds? I never used them mind you, but the guide was the best place to look up info on the various mythics during early launch, and possibly still is. Also a decent way to quickly check with archetypes are worth a damn.

They're generally allergic to rp sensibilities, they're pure min-max builds for highest difficulty, to they tend to be Frankenstein's monsters from the rp point of view.

Love how this ruleset beclowns facile powergamers but it makes gaming websites even more garbage than usual. Their business model doesn’t allow their writers the time to master any one particular game and their instincts were all formed by games/rulesets that this one was in large part designed to supplant (in order to make rp/skills-based play more relatively effective).

Yeah, it's interesting that some people complain about all the classes and sub-classes, but it seems to me that the idea of that is that you can have roughly-equally-viable rp "flavours" of many kinds.

 

[perfectslumbers]

What's the current gimmicky meta build for archery? Am I way off with a zen archer?

I'm confident the strongest pure class archer on higher difficulties is mutation warrior or ranger with the right favoured enemy, although mutation warrior with double weapon training in throwing axes is even better. The most important thing for an archer is attack bonus and mutation warrior and ranger are the best at stacking it. Sohei 11/mutation warrior 9 or just straight slayer is great too. Zen archer has very high damage, but has a hard time hitting things. If you're on normal difficulty it should work great though.

 

[ArchAngel]

Did Songbird fight.. man, that AC.. even on Core it is crazy. And my extremely buffed party, focused on melee had real problems hitting this enemy. On Unfair.. you need to go touch attack or this fight will not be doable for most.

 

[Desiderius]

What's the current gimmicky meta build for archery? Am I way off with a zen archer?

I'm confident the strongest pure class archer on higher difficulties is mutation warrior or ranger with the right favoured enemy, although mutation warrior with double weapon training in throwing axes is even better. The most important thing for an archer is attack bonus and mutation warrior and ranger are the best at stacking it. Sohei 11/mutation warrior 9 or just straight slayer is great too. Zen archer has very high damage, but has a hard time hitting things. If you're on normal difficulty it should work great though.

Why would it have trouble hitting? You’ve got Perfect Strike to take two bites at the apple on the highest AC targets. Can either crit fish there with Bless Weapon or Ki Shout depending on weak save/SR if it’s impossibly high.

Pretty sure double weapon training was fixed. Eldritch Archer, Fighter (with or without Mut), Ranger (Booter, Demonslayer, Nomad), Slayer, or Zen Archer are all viable options.

 

[ArchAngel]

What's the current gimmicky meta build for archery? Am I way off with a zen archer?

I'm confident the strongest pure class archer on higher difficulties is mutation warrior or ranger with the right favoured enemy, although mutation warrior with double weapon training in throwing axes is even better. The most important thing for an archer is attack bonus and mutation warrior and ranger are the best at stacking it. Sohei 11/mutation warrior 9 or just straight slayer is great too. Zen archer has very high damage, but has a hard time hitting things. If you're on normal difficulty it should work great though.

In DLC3 there is an item that for 1H gives you your Wisdom modifer to your attack and AC. Pretty OP item and awesome for melee and ranged characters going high Wisdom.

 

[Daidre]

What's the current gimmicky meta build for archery? Am I way off with a zen archer?

Biggest issue with Zen Archer - his unique version of the flurry doesn't work with Rapid Shot and Manyshot, when Sohei's variant, starting from lvl 6 - does. So Sohei 11 could be seen as current "meta" for auto-attacking archer, who is focused on the number of attacks. Zen Archer got a wonderful per hit damage, but behind on AB bonuses.

All Rangers are good Archers with Styles and Favored Enemy, but only Demonslayer covers all demon types by default in the unmodded game, other archetypes need spell spam.
Pure Mutation Warrior got godly AB when pure but dip for 5+ lvls is very nice too.
And the last top dog is probably a Slayer - default one would do, but Deliverer is the best for good/lawful character. He got everything - Ranger's Styles, Studied Target, Sneaks, Rogue Talents.

double weapon training in throwing axes is even better.

This one very good too, but double throwers were among the biggest victims of the elemental barrage nerf. Plus, itemization for Bows now is a bit better than for Throwing. Anyway, only monks are stuck with bows, all others can choose.

 

[perfectslumbers]

In DLC3 there is an item that for 1H gives you your Wisdom modifer to your attack and AC. Pretty OP item and awesome for melee and ranged characters going high Wisdom.

Oh that's cool and sounds great for Zen Archer. I never play the DLC in Owlcats games but maybe I'll buy it and try it

 

[Desiderius]

Sohei doesn’t get Point Blank Master so either your Horse isn’t fighting or you’re taking a lot of hits to the face. ZA gets several other bonus Feats and abilities that Sohei doesn’t, particularly growing dice that go great with Enlarge (DEX malus doesn’t matter with WIS to AB)/Legendary and Perfect Strike upping it’s crits.

The Rapid/Flurry stacking is obvious bug and not that big of a deal. ZA effectively getting Rapid without the malus is a big selling point and one of the ways it makes up for the AB deficit. Then Flurry gives another attack at lvl 11 when third iterative kicks in to really go off. Manyshot can’t crit and doesn’t get Sneaks.

Trading two Slayer Talents for 2d6 on Deliverer doesn’t seem like a very good deal. Diehard is usually a negative though won’t come up much at range.

You really want that one at lvl 2 to get Combat Style started. Slayer works well with TWF to double up Studied and Sneaks.