Pathfinder Pathfinder: Wrath of the Righteous - Game of the Year Edition

[Reina]

Shouldn't bombs treated as ranged weapons and proc sneak attacks? I feel that was the case in Kingmaker, yet in WotR I can't get it to work, and I didn't find any mod for this. My grenadier trickster build is ruined

 

[Desiderius]

Shouldn't bombs treated as ranged weapons and proc sneak attacks? I feel that was the case in Kingmaker, yet in WotR I can't get it to work, and I didn't find any mod for this. My grenadier trickster build is ruined

There's a guy asking Vek to implement this. I think you can splash Underground Chemist to unlock that ability or just retrain into that class:



I haven't tested it yet (Brew Potions with no spellcasting looks kind of strange) but my assumption is that it uses found/purchased Bombs instead of it's own. Maybe try it out and let us know. Would be interesting to make UC4/Grenadier as a melee character with the Precise Breath from Grenadier since Chemist gives you Finesse/DEX-to-damage/Debilitating and Grenadier Martial Prof and Mutagens. Wonder if Breath would trigger Sneaks (doubt it).

 

[gurugeorge]

Shouldn't bombs treated as ranged weapons and proc sneak attacks? I feel that was the case in Kingmaker, yet in WotR I can't get it to work, and I didn't find any mod for this. My grenadier trickster build is ruined

Commiserations. I tried that myself, and it didn't work (mind you that was like 6 months or so ago). With Underground Chemist you can sneak attack with the stupid alchemists flasks (including the holy one, which is pretty cool actually, and works well against many of the mobs in the game), but not with the bombs from either Alchemist or the Wizard bomber archetype. I could understand not including Alchemists' bombs, as they're already pretty OP, but the Wizard bomber is really weak and could do with the boost from a UC splash.

 

[Reina]

Shouldn't bombs treated as ranged weapons and proc sneak attacks? I feel that was the case in Kingmaker, yet in WotR I can't get it to work, and I didn't find any mod for this. My grenadier trickster build is ruined

There's a guy asking Vek to implement this. I think you can splash Underground Chemist to unlock that ability or just retrain into that class:

View attachment 29327

I haven't tested it yet (Brew Potions with no spellcasting looks kind of strange) but my assumption is that it uses found/purchased Bombs instead of it's own. Maybe try it out and let us know. Would be interesting to make UC4/Grenadier as a melee character with the Precise Breath from Grenadier since Chemist gives you Finesse/DEX-to-damage/Debilitating and Grenadier Martial Prof and Mutagens. Wonder if Breath would trigger Sneaks (doubt it).

I don't think wasting entire 4 levels, from casting class no less, is worth it.

Overall, I'm very disappointed by grenadier as a class, I think I saw someone on Codex hype various bomb types up, but none of them seem particualrly impactful, compared to, let's say, Wizard spells of adequate level. It feels like I'm gimping myself playing it.

 

[ArchAngel]

Sosiel? Has has mythic perks and quicken rods.

Lol, the point is that you only get one Swift per round and he has awesome Domain abilities for those with Domain Zealot already. And yeah Mythic Perks and Quicken Rods are about the most scarce/powerful resources in the game. Thanks for making my point.

If you need more then one swift action spent on healing per combat you fucked up in making your character/party. In DLC3 at high levels (15+) where every mob has 500+ life and most have Mythic abilities I get to cast one swift healing spell every 3rd or 4th battle. And DLC3 does not even have Quicken Rods while base campaign is full of them.

 

[Delterius]

Shouldn't bombs treated as ranged weapons and proc sneak attacks? I feel that was the case in Kingmaker, yet in WotR I can't get it to work, and I didn't find any mod for this. My grenadier trickster build is ruined

It's apparently a rules fix. Splash weapons cannot deal precision damage, at all. But you can still go for x4 crits if you really want to.

 

[gurugeorge]

Shouldn't bombs treated as ranged weapons and proc sneak attacks? I feel that was the case in Kingmaker, yet in WotR I can't get it to work, and I didn't find any mod for this. My grenadier trickster build is ruined

There's a guy asking Vek to implement this. I think you can splash Underground Chemist to unlock that ability or just retrain into that class:

View attachment 29327

I haven't tested it yet (Brew Potions with no spellcasting looks kind of strange) but my assumption is that it uses found/purchased Bombs instead of it's own. Maybe try it out and let us know. Would be interesting to make UC4/Grenadier as a melee character with the Precise Breath from Grenadier since Chemist gives you Finesse/DEX-to-damage/Debilitating and Grenadier Martial Prof and Mutagens. Wonder if Breath would trigger Sneaks (doubt it).

I don't think wasting entire 4 levels, from casting class no less, is worth it.

Overall, I'm very disappointed by grenadier as a class, I think I saw someone on Codex hype various bomb types up, but none of them seem particualrly impactful, compared to, let's say, Wizard spells of adequate level. It feels like I'm gimping myself playing it.

Those 4 levels aren't entirely wasted, because you can also choose a weapon to finesse (the damage finesse bump, forget what it's called), which is actually quite handy for a bit of versatility, especially if you invest further in sneak attacks via Arcane Trickster. There's a potentially very cool build you could make that blends Underground Chemist, Wizard bomber and Arcane Trickster, if only the Wizard bombs could get sneak attack dice from the Undergruond Chemist "bomb" sneak attack trick.

 

[Humbaba]

Overall, I'm very disappointed by grenadier as a class, I think I saw someone on Codex hype various bomb types up, but none of them seem particualrly impactful, compared to, let's say, Wizard spells of adequate level. It feels like I'm gimping myself playing it.

Been having some second thoughts about going Grenadier myself. Been reading that bombs do not scale all that well. Means I have to rethink my planned Swarm playthrough. Having 6 bomb spammers in the end game sounds fun but maybe Vivisectionist is the way to go after all.

 

[gurugeorge]

Shouldn't bombs treated as ranged weapons and proc sneak attacks? I feel that was the case in Kingmaker, yet in WotR I can't get it to work, and I didn't find any mod for this. My grenadier trickster build is ruined

It's apparently a rules fix. Splash weapons cannot deal precision damage, at all. But you can still go for x4 crits if you really want to.

Yet alchemists' flasks can, with Undeground Chemist, and they're splash weapons too aren't they?

 

[Jaedar]

https://www.neoseeker.com/pathfinder-wrath-of-the-righteous/builds/Melee_Lich_Legend#Caster_Oracle

Same pile of shit like any Neoseeker build)

What's wrong with neoseeker builds? I never used them mind you, but the guide was the best place to look up info on the various mythics during early launch, and possibly still is. Also a decent way to quickly check with archetypes are worth a damn.

 

[Longes]

https://www.neoseeker.com/pathfinder-wrath-of-the-righteous/builds/Melee_Lich_Legend#Caster_Oracle

Same pile of shit like any Neoseeker build)

What's wrong with neoseeker builds? I never used them mind you, but the guide was the best place to look up info on the various mythics during early launch, and possibly still is. Also a decent way to quickly check with archetypes are worth a damn.

For one, they are severely outdated due to mechanics changes in patches. E.g., you don't want to be a Sorcerer Lich anymore. Spontaneous casters don't get spells beyond their character level progression even with the spellbook merge. So Sorc 10/Lich 3 is casting 5th level spells, while Wizard 10/Lich 3 is casting 8th.

 

[Average Manatee]

For one, they are severely outdated due to mechanics changes in patches. E.g., you don't want to be a Sorcerer Lich anymore. Spontaneous casters don't get spells beyond their character level progression even with the spellbook merge. So Sorc 10/Lich 3 is casting 5th level spells, while Wizard 10/Lich 3 is casting 8th.

Ehh, it's still fine to play. It solves all of your spells known per level issues, still bumps your caster level massively, still gives you the lich spells, and it's not like wizards are tripping over powerful scrolls to scribe at high spell levels when they are boosted that high. Merged spellbooks is 100% overpowered no matter how you do it.

 

[Desiderius]

Shouldn't bombs treated as ranged weapons and proc sneak attacks? I feel that was the case in Kingmaker, yet in WotR I can't get it to work, and I didn't find any mod for this. My grenadier trickster build is ruined

There's a guy asking Vek to implement this. I think you can splash Underground Chemist to unlock that ability or just retrain into that class:

View attachment 29327

I haven't tested it yet (Brew Potions with no spellcasting looks kind of strange) but my assumption is that it uses found/purchased Bombs instead of it's own. Maybe try it out and let us know. Would be interesting to make UC4/Grenadier as a melee character with the Precise Breath from Grenadier since Chemist gives you Finesse/DEX-to-damage/Debilitating and Grenadier Martial Prof and Mutagens. Wonder if Breath would trigger Sneaks (doubt it).

I don't think wasting entire 4 levels, from casting class no less, is worth it.

Overall, I'm very disappointed by grenadier as a class, I think I saw someone on Codex hype various bomb types up, but none of them seem particualrly impactful, compared to, let's say, Wizard spells of adequate level. It feels like I'm gimping myself playing it.

It's overrated among Alchemists (unless you're doing something unique like melee with Directed Blast) since all the shiny abilities you get (other than maybe Staggering Blast) don't really come into play that much, but Alch Bombs do decent damage while getting reasonably high DCs (if you target weak Saves and use Cognatogen) and bypassing Spell Resistance/targeting Touch AC. The main benefit of the class (whether Vivi or Grenadier or the others) is the unique ability to Infuse Personal spells, but there isn't the item support in Wrath that there is in P:K because there's no companion Alch. The impact of Bombs is the quantity, the Touch AC attack, and SR bypass, and how good damage + debuff effects (like Sirocco) are. If you aren't taking advantage of all that you're more gimping yourself by how you're playing it than the class gimping you.

 

[Grunker]

Playthrough update. Game continues to be balls hard, so I am satisfied with the difficulty though it is still a bit too hard for my tastes. Currently level 7. I do think, however, that the worst of the-top difficulty would disappear if I had access to Greater Invisibility, and speaking of:

Ember (Leyline Witch): Basically Witch is living up to my fears; Hexes are powerful but kind of annoying and the spell-list is severely lacking - even with Agility Patron to patch the biggest hole of Haste. So in contrast to all the other characters which I am happy (or, in the case of Camellia, content) with, I'm strongly considering respeccing here. I'd probably keep the Witch if I had another Arcane caster, but without one, I feel like I'm lacking a few very basic tools for this midgame. I just did Nenio's quest and honestly, having Greater Invis was such great QoL... not only does it prevent MC-one shots, it also fixes his TH problems before getting Demon.

Wenduag (Slayer Shieldbash): Wenduag is still tanking most things decently, but runs into huge problems against massive strength creatures like Plagued Smilodons. Their insane to hit bonus make them tankable solely by Last Stand, which works, but is kind of... unfulfilling? Overall though, very satisfied with the build. It's basic but fun.

MC (Bloodrager/Oracle/Dragon Disciple/Vivi): What an amazing build this is. Thanks to Stoned Ape for the OG idea (though it since diverted massively) and to Daidre for continous build discussion. Even severely nerfed because of no access to DR-pen (since I gave away the token to Galfrey), attacking 10 times at level 7 (2 claws + 1 haste claw + 7 gores/bites) is just wacky as all hell and surprisingly powerful (considering the lacking AB/damage). Easily my most powerful character. No Demon mythic for making nat attacks primary yet, but when you attack 10 times - you're gonna hit with some of them

Regill (Divine Hunter/Sohei/Cavalier/Fighter): Easily my second favorite build even though he's only been with me for a few encounters. He's easily worse than the basic bitch Freebooter I had before (missing that flanking AB), but there's a lot of fun things going on - and a pet on top! Build should come online next level when it gets flurry for bows. Right now it's kind of underwhelming in terms of power.

Camellia (Crusader): Not much to say here, it's a worse Cleric which doesn't really get the Fighter-power it says it should on the tin. If I respec anyone besides Ember it'll be Camellia, but eh, it's fun enough and working so far, so unlike Ember I'm not really feeling a massive inclination to respec here.

Seelah (Paladin): I'm using a Divine Bond-Horse Seelah until I get Arushaelae. Not much to say here, I went pretty basic bitch with it, so yeah, it's a Paladin, so it works.

The main reason I'm putting off an Ember-respec is that I don't really know what to respec into if I did. Never played Arcanist before so could be that, but I'm not going to do Brown-Fur because it honestly looks like it breaks the game, lol.

 

[Daidre]

What's wrong with neoseeker builds? I never used them mind you, but the guide was the best place to look up info on the various mythics during early launch, and possibly still is. Also a decent way to quickly check with archetypes are worth a damn.

Technically, there are many guides on Neoseeker written by different people so quality varies wildly. Some of them are good, especially those that mostly use the raw info datamined from the game itself (items, mythic path abilities), some are decent but outdated and some are their own special category, like in Ineffect's build guides that most likely cause more harm than good to any person who would try to use it. Damn, I am pretty sure that Ineffect himself never tried to play half of them.

 

[Desiderius]

Shouldn't bombs treated as ranged weapons and proc sneak attacks? I feel that was the case in Kingmaker, yet in WotR I can't get it to work, and I didn't find any mod for this. My grenadier trickster build is ruined

It's apparently a rules fix. Splash weapons cannot deal precision damage, at all. But you can still go for x4 crits if you really want to.

Yet alchemists' flasks can, with Undeground Chemist, and they're splash weapons too aren't they?

Just confirmed that Underground Chemist only uses found/purchased Bombs. On the other hand they do apply Rogue abilities like Debilitating and Crippling from range and vs Touch AC (with full Sneaks). You don't have access to any of the Bomb Feats though. And no Precise Bombs (though Splash damage is negligible and doesn't apply Sneaks - good way to trigger Instill Vigor Mythic Bonus tho). UC has a specific ability that turns this on, so you could argue that it's not inherent.

If UC applies Sneaks to Grenadier Bombs there would be a LOT of synergy in a UC4/Grenadier Melee build.

 

[Delterius]

Shouldn't bombs treated as ranged weapons and proc sneak attacks? I feel that was the case in Kingmaker, yet in WotR I can't get it to work, and I didn't find any mod for this. My grenadier trickster build is ruined

It's apparently a rules fix. Splash weapons cannot deal precision damage, at all. But you can still go for x4 crits if you really want to.

Yet alchemists' flasks can, with Undeground Chemist, and they're splash weapons too aren't they?

Yeah and they have a special ability for it. The problem would be that the game isn't coded to make that work with alchemist bombs because underground chemist himself doesn't have them.

 

[Desiderius]

UC Brew Potions works with Mythic Spellbook but has none of its own lol.

 

[ArchAngel]

https://www.neoseeker.com/pathfinder-wrath-of-the-righteous/builds/Melee_Lich_Legend#Caster_Oracle

Same pile of shit like any Neoseeker build)

What's wrong with neoseeker builds? I never used them mind you, but the guide was the best place to look up info on the various mythics during early launch, and possibly still is. Also a decent way to quickly check with archetypes are worth a damn.

For one, they are severely outdated due to mechanics changes in patches. E.g., you don't want to be a Sorcerer Lich anymore. Spontaneous casters don't get spells beyond their character level progression even with the spellbook merge. So Sorc 10/Lich 3 is casting 5th level spells, while Wizard 10/Lich 3 is casting 8th.

That kills my 2 man run of DLC3 with Lich Sorcerer as main character.
Do Arcanists count as spontaneous casters? Although if I go arcanist, I might as well do Wizard (or non spontaneous caster Witch).

EDIT: also does it work same if you merge spontaneous divine caster with Angel?

 

[Longes]

Camellia (Crusader): Not much to say here, it's a worse Cleric which doesn't really get the Fighter-power it says it should on the tin. If I respec anyone besides Ember it'll be Camellia, but eh, it's fun enough and working so far, so unlike Ember I'm not really feeling a massive inclination to respec here.

Why would you do this to poor Camellia? She's so good as a Spirit Hunter! She's the cleric Sosiel wishes he could be.

 

[Desiderius]

Cusader relies a lot on Cleric self-buffs so take awhile (and Abundant) to get up to speed. Once Divine Favor hits +3/+3 it gets alot better and once you can keep Divine Power and Frightful/Winds/Greater Angelic up you’re a powerhouse.

Witch is a decent supplement to Nenio/Wolj but a poor replacement.

 

[Grunker]

Camellia (Crusader): Not much to say here, it's a worse Cleric which doesn't really get the Fighter-power it says it should on the tin. If I respec anyone besides Ember it'll be Camellia, but eh, it's fun enough and working so far, so unlike Ember I'm not really feeling a massive inclination to respec here.

Why would you do this to poor Camellia? She's so good as a Spirit Hunter! She's the cleric Sosiel wishes he could be.

Most people in this thread seemed to think I'd really miss having a Cleric. My original plan was to keep her as a Shaman.

 

[IllusiveBrian]

https://www.neoseeker.com/pathfinder-wrath-of-the-righteous/builds/Melee_Lich_Legend#Caster_Oracle

Same pile of shit like any Neoseeker build)

What's wrong with neoseeker builds? I never used them mind you, but the guide was the best place to look up info on the various mythics during early launch, and possibly still is. Also a decent way to quickly check with archetypes are worth a damn.

For one, they are severely outdated due to mechanics changes in patches. E.g., you don't want to be a Sorcerer Lich anymore. Spontaneous casters don't get spells beyond their character level progression even with the spellbook merge. So Sorc 10/Lich 3 is casting 5th level spells, while Wizard 10/Lich 3 is casting 8th.

I'm playing a Stigmatized Witch/Lich now and I definitely had access to spell slots to cast higher level Lich spells than my class levels would normally allow. I wasn't keeping careful track but I think I'm 16 or 17 now and have 9th level Lich spells and slots to cast them. I don't have any Witch spells learned but it's not like I'm using them much at this point anyway.

 

[Daidre]

For one, they are severely outdated due to mechanics changes in patches. E.g., you don't want to be a Sorcerer Lich anymore. Spontaneous casters don't get spells beyond their character level progression even with the spellbook merge. So Sorc 10/Lich 3 is casting 5th level spells, while Wizard 10/Lich 3 is casting 8th.

No, it is not how it works. Sorc 10/Lich 3 can cast lvl 6, and Sorc 10/Lich 4 - level 7 spells, but he'll only have a Lich spells (or Metamagic) available for his highest spell levels until his class progression catches up so he could learn spells from the standard spellbook of his class.

So it is completely ok if you want to use Lich's unique spells asap, but it sucks if you aim to cast Wierd, for example, because you won't be able to learn it until lvl 18. (Except it is possible too - with Loremaster Spell Secret).

 

[Yosharian]

Shouldn't bombs treated as ranged weapons and proc sneak attacks? I feel that was the case in Kingmaker, yet in WotR I can't get it to work, and I didn't find any mod for this. My grenadier trickster build is ruined

There's a guy asking Vek to implement this. I think you can splash Underground Chemist to unlock that ability or just retrain into that class:

View attachment 29327

I haven't tested it yet (Brew Potions with no spellcasting looks kind of strange) but my assumption is that it uses found/purchased Bombs instead of it's own. Maybe try it out and let us know. Would be interesting to make UC4/Grenadier as a melee character with the Precise Breath from Grenadier since Chemist gives you Finesse/DEX-to-damage/Debilitating and Grenadier Martial Prof and Mutagens. Wonder if Breath would trigger Sneaks (doubt it).

I don't think wasting entire 4 levels, from casting class no less, is worth it.

Overall, I'm very disappointed by grenadier as a class, I think I saw someone on Codex hype various bomb types up, but none of them seem particualrly impactful, compared to, let's say, Wizard spells of adequate level. It feels like I'm gimping myself playing it.

Was it Desiderius?