Pathfinder Pathfinder: Wrath of the Righteous - Game of the Year Edition

[Average Manatee]

No, it is not how it works. Sorc 10/Lich 3 can cast lvl 6, and Sorc 10/Lich 4 - level 7 spells, but he'll only have a Lich spells (or Metamagic) available for his highest spell levels until his class progression will catch up and he could learn the spells from the standard spellbook of his class.

So it completely ok if you want to use Lich unique spells asap, but it sucks if you aim to cast Wierd, for example, because you won't be able to learn it until lvl 18. (Except it is possible too - with Loremaster Spell Secret).

Sorcerer + Lich level does still count for learning extra spells on spell levels your sorcerer can already cast from though, which is also very powerful. In other words once you unlock level 9 sorcerer spells at level 18 you're now treated as a level 26 or w/e sorcerer for the purposes of spells known. So spontaneous casting still has its perks when you have almost every useful spell at each rank known very quickly rather than just 1 or 2, and this is in addition to the lich spells which you can always cast as if you were at your combined sorc + lich level so the amount of flexibility you have is truly massive. And lets be honest, you're probably just spamming the lich spells most of the time anyway.

Before spontaneous was just flat out better in every way (The only advantage of prepared, being 1 level ahead in spell progression, barely mattered when you couldn't find useful scrolls). Now I think it's balanced reasonably between spontaneous and prepared. Prepared gets some spells a few levels earlier, spontaneous gets much more versatility and sustained blasting.

 

[Yosharian]

Regill (Divine Hunter/Sohei/Cavalier/Fighter): Easily my second favorite build even though he's only been with me for a few encounters. He's easily worse than the basic bitch Freebooter I had before (missing that flanking AB), but there's a lot of fun things going on - and a pet on top! Build should come online next level when it gets flurry for bows. Right now it's kind of underwhelming in terms of power.

Looks familiar

Edit: oh wait bows? Never mind then lol

 

[Tsubutai]

https://www.neoseeker.com/pathfinder-wrath-of-the-righteous/builds/Melee_Lich_Legend#Caster_Oracle

Same pile of shit like any Neoseeker build)

What's wrong with neoseeker builds? I never used them mind you, but the guide was the best place to look up info on the various mythics during early launch, and possibly still is. Also a decent way to quickly check with archetypes are worth a damn.

The site has a lot of good info, but to me its builds feel overly complex just for the sake of being complex. I also think (having beaten unfair using only story companions single-classed in their starting classes) that a lot of what it says about unfair and the level of optimization/minmax needed to beat it is just plain wrong. Like, the stuff below is horseshit:

Spoiler

Party synergy: Let's get straight to the elephant in the room: the party is just the main character's (MC) entourage. It’s the MC's job to kill everything and do everything; your party is there for the sole reason of helping you along the way. There is no magic sauce that suddenly makes an unwinnable fight winnable by the power of friendship; it doesn't even really matter who in the party has the tools you need.

...

Tools required for Melee​

• Competence bonus AB. Rather hard to come by. You want something with the Bard song; usually a Bard or a Sensei (not Skald because everything worthwhile is a caster). You usually want around 11 levels in the class so the rest can be used for more support.
• Guarded Hearth. Community domain. That’s 10+AB where it counts. This ability is single-handedly responsible for a good portion of any melee's Unfair viability.
• Hexes. Be it Evil Eye on the enemy, Fortune on the MC, or even just a life-giver to ease the pain of someone dying in the last round of combat, hexes are a nice tool we want to have at hand.
• Summons. Not as degenerate as casters, but we still can make use of the fodder distracting enemies eating attacks so you don’t have to roll against them to begin with. Also good for luring enemy crowd control (CC) away from you.
• Mark of Justice support from a max CHA mercenary. Stacks with anything (except for itself) and gives you an extra dozen AB. It’s a must have. Bonus points if the MC has Smite Evil/Chaos (or both) as they all stack for whatever reason.

Obviously, all the things described as being "required" are useful and nice to have, but you absolutely do not need all of them, and it's perfectly possible to build an unfair-viable party where all of the members contribute significantly rather than just being there to buff the MC.

 

[Grunker]

Regill (Divine Hunter/Sohei/Cavalier/Fighter): Easily my second favorite build even though he's only been with me for a few encounters. He's easily worse than the basic bitch Freebooter I had before (missing that flanking AB), but there's a lot of fun things going on - and a pet on top! Build should come online next level when it gets flurry for bows. Right now it's kind of underwhelming in terms of power.

Looks familiar

It does? It's basically the only build I didn't even ask about or comment on here, I just wrote it up and Daidre helped me clean up a feat progression or two, but that was it

(not like it's a massively complex build tho, the dips are mainly to close feat holes and because Sohei isn't worth much after 11 on the build)

 

[Yosharian]

Nah I made a STR mounted melee build for my page with very similar classes and thought you might have made something similar. But I guess not

 

[IHaveHugeNick]

Yeah, lost me at bows, I expected that Cavalier route with a pike.

 

[Daidre]

And lets be honest, you're probably just spamming the lich spells most of the time anyway.

Yes, even after the nerf I still prefer playing merged spontaneous casters - more spell slots, better flexibility and Mythic spells often outclass the standard spell book. Besides, with prepared caster I always feel the need to take Abundant Casting x3, but Oracle/Sorc/whatever already have more spellslots than I can realistically spend between the rests even without Abundant.

 

[Grunker]

Yeah, lost me at bows, I expected that Cavalier route with a pike.

Cavalier is only because it gets me easy Dazzling with pet progression.

 

[Yosharian]

Double dip on Weapon Training with Fencer's Gift is just nuts. 750 damage crits!

 

[Average Manatee]

Yes, even after the nerf I still prefer playing merged spontaneous casters - more spell slots, better flexibility and Mythic spells often outclass the standard spell book. Besides, with prepared caster I always feel the need to take Abundant Casting x3, but Oracle/Sorc/whatever already have more spellslots than I can realistically spend between the rests even without Abundant.

Yeah, with Wizard you always feel the need to spend a few slots per level on "just in case" type spells that eat into your overall total while sorcerer just blasts away and if he happens to blast out of one level he can metamagic on the spot to get a dozen more spells on another level. For something like a very focused DC spellcaster Wizard will be better but for general blasting and utility all you need is like level 6 slots, massive CL, and metamagic.

 

[Humbaba]

Right, elf vivisectionist playthrough is a go. Shame about the lack of martial weapon proficiency, but I'll spec into it later so I can use elven curved blades. Those are pretty good. Until then, I have the scimitar proficiency from my corsair background. Scimitars are also pretty good. It'll also give my future swarm clones something to wield, because I'm not exactly sure there's enough good elf blades to go around.

 

[Desiderius]

Regill (Divine Hunter/Sohei/Cavalier/Fighter): Easily my second favorite build even though he's only been with me for a few encounters. He's easily worse than the basic bitch Freebooter I had before (missing that flanking AB), but there's a lot of fun things going on - and a pet on top! Build should come online next level when it gets flurry for bows. Right now it's kind of underwhelming in terms of power.

Looks familiar

It does? It's basically the only build I didn't even ask about or comment on here, I just wrote it up and Daidre helped me clean up a feat progression or two, but that was it

(not like it's a massively complex build tho, the dips are mainly to close feat holes and because Sohei isn't worth much after 11)

Other than rolling auto 20 for initiative and all the other scaling stuff (admittedly less than other Monks). Splashing trades early buffs for mid-late class progression so game won’t get easier for you as it would single-classing, which I guess is one way to even out the difficulty curve.

You’re blowing a lot of Feats on Point Blank Master that could be used for Dazzling/Shatter if you just stayed melee or looked at a class that gets it for free/Combat Style.

 

[Desiderius]

Double dip on Weapon Training with Fencer's Gift is just nuts. 750 damage crits!

I think they fixed this.

 

[Humbaba]

Oops hang on, scimitars aren't included in weapon finesse. Now I have to reroll the character and give him a better background.

 

[IllusiveBrian]

Oops hang on, scimitars aren't included in weapon finesse. Now I have to reroll the character and give him a better background.

One of the noble backgrounds gives rapiers, if you want a weapon that has a decent number of options for your clones.

 

[Jaedar]

The main reason I'm putting off an Ember-respec is that I don't really know what to respec into if I did. Never played Arcanist before so could be that, but I'm not going to do Brown-Fur because it honestly looks like it breaks the game, lol.

I would not recommend arcanist if you're not going brown fur, the arcanist archetype for wizard is better (and more fun I think: wizards scale really well with the mythic casting feats for infinite slots). The basic arcane tricks in general are super disappointing, except for the +DC/CL one, which is insane.

Most people in this thread seemed to think I'd really miss having a Cleric. My original plan was to keep her as a Shaman.

I think you should have a full progression divine caster. Cleric has some nice domains but honestly shaman works imo, as long as you pick good spirits.

I just did Nenio's quest and honestly, having Greater Invis was such great QoL... not only does it prevent MC-one shots, it also fixes his TH problems before getting Demon.

True sight becomes very common on enemies later on. Wizards have some decent buffs, but honestly the hex that forces opponents to roll twice to hit you is probably the best defensive asset in the game.

 

[Desiderius]

Oops hang on, scimitars aren't included in weapon finesse. Now I have to reroll the character and give him a better background.

Scimitars can be Finessed with Dervish Dance?

 

[Grunker]

The main reason I'm putting off an Ember-respec is that I don't really know what to respec into if I did. Never played Arcanist before so could be that, but I'm not going to do Brown-Fur because it honestly looks like it breaks the game, lol.

I would not recommend arcanist if you're not going brown fur, the arcanist archetype for wizard is better (and more fun I think: wizards scale really well with the mythic casting feats for infinite slots). The basic arcane tricks in general are super disappointing, except for the +DC/CL one, which is insane.

Most people in this thread seemed to think I'd really miss having a Cleric. My original plan was to keep her as a Shaman.

I think you should have a full progression divine caster. Cleric has some nice domains but honestly shaman works imo, as long as you pick good spirits.

I just did Nenio's quest and honestly, having Greater Invis was such great QoL... not only does it prevent MC-one shots, it also fixes his TH problems before getting Demon.

True sight becomes very common on enemies later on. Wizards have some decent buffs, but honestly the hex that forces opponents to roll twice to hit you is probably the best defensive asset in the game.

Thanks for the advice. Someone told me - I can't remember if it was Daidre? - that True Sight was actually way less prevalent than commonly accepted. I guessed it would be prevalent myself (mostly because of the enemy types I imagine you'd fight).

Anyway, the point wasn't just Greater Invis in isolation, but more that there are "haste-great invis-whatever"-like holes in the spell list overall. When you play on Unfair, Greater Invis on mid level is the difference between hitting 10-12-14-16+ or hitting 2+ at these levels, and there are more spells like that that make a pretty massive difference. And unlike Kingmaker where I felt like I started becoming OP anyway from level 7-8, WotR seems to be much more challenging (which is nice).

I experimented with a lot of OP high level scrolls for the Gargoyle fight and I find it kind of amusing that it was a 4th level one that ended up winning it for me.

 

[Desiderius]

The main reason I'm putting off an Ember-respec is that I don't really know what to respec into if I did. Never played Arcanist before so could be that, but I'm not going to do Brown-Fur because it honestly looks like it breaks the game, lol.

I would not recommend arcanist if you're not going brown fur, the arcanist archetype for wizard is better (and more fun I think: wizards scale really well with the mythic casting feats for infinite slots). The basic arcane tricks in general are super disappointing, except for the +DC/CL one, which is insane.

Most people in this thread seemed to think I'd really miss having a Cleric. My original plan was to keep her as a Shaman.

I think you should have a full progression divine caster. Cleric has some nice domains but honestly shaman works imo, as long as you pick good spirits.

I just did Nenio's quest and honestly, having Greater Invis was such great QoL... not only does it prevent MC-one shots, it also fixes his TH problems before getting Demon.

True sight becomes very common on enemies later on. Wizards have some decent buffs, but honestly the hex that forces opponents to roll twice to hit you is probably the best defensive asset in the game.

Phantasmal Mage Arcanist works great with Azata and Shadow Spells that offset the main limitation of Arcanist (narrow Spellbook). As with Hunter Owlcat didn’t implement the main draw to play the class (Counterspell) but there are several archetypes that offer unique benefits and the DC/CL Exploits along with the Move Action Teleport and the Plant/AC thing aren’t bad.

Protective Luck is kind of a trap (too narrow for the Action Econ required unless you’ve mastered Cackle or are exploiting it pre-combat) and Misfortune does nothing on made Saves (with few ways to buff Hex DC).

Mind Blank now cancels True Seeing which can also be Dispelled.

 

[Humbaba]

Oops hang on, scimitars aren't included in weapon finesse. Now I have to reroll the character and give him a better background.

One of the noble backgrounds gives rapiers, if you want a weapon that has a decent number of options for your clones.

Went with River Kingdoms Daredevil, gives Daggers and Shortswords proficiency. There's actually some pretty cool shortswords iirc.

Scimitars can be Finessed with Dervish Dance?

Which isn't in the game.

 

[Tony]

Is the new version worth playing now if I played through the game in the last three months? Or should I wait for the rest of the DLC to be released and all the mods I like and use to catch up first?

 

[Grunker]

Is the new version worth playing now if I played through the game in the last three months? Or should I wait for the rest of the DLC to be released and all the mods I like and use to catch up first?

There's nothing new in the EE so if you're asking about new content, no

 

[user]

Sorcerer Lich is the shit. Can't imagine not having that kind of versatility with so many spells. Get the Skeletal Finger from the lab and the Staff of Dope (relic, southwest(?)), kick all the living companions out of the party since the undead rez when you rest and everything else is fodder anyway, and you are good to go.

 

[Tony]

Scimitars can be Finessed with Dervish Dance?

Which isn't in the game.

It is in Tabletop tweaks, which most people probably use. I can't see a reason not to. Why not make a great game even better?

 

[user]

Scimitars can be Finessed with Dervish Dance?

Which isn't in the game.

It is in Tabletop tweaks, which most people probably use. I can't see a reason not to. Why not make a great game even better?

Yeah, Tabletop tweaks and even Mythics reworked is the real EE we deserve. Bless Vek