Pathfinder Pathfinder: Wrath of the Righteous - Game of the Year Edition

[Daidre]

Sohei doesn’t get Point Blank Master so either your Horse isn’t fighting or you’re taking a lot of hits to the face.

Or your horse is fighting as usual, just without you. Or your dog, or smilodon, or velociraptor (or any other animal, really) - since Sohei can progress any pet from another class with better selection.

Trading two Slayer Talents for 2d6 on Deliverer doesn’t seem like a very good deal. Diehard is usually a negative though won’t come up much at range.

Extra damage from Studied and extra +2d6 from Holy/Axiomatic weapon (probably some bane too) are also riding on those +2d6. Honestly, Desi, we have already talked about it - age definitely did no favors to your memory.

 

[IHaveHugeNick]

On my current run I went for MC Spawn Slayer mixed with Demonslayer, works nice but I gotta warn ya, it's extremely boring.

 

[IllusiveBrian]

Sohei doesn’t get Point Blank Master so either your Horse isn’t fighting or you’re taking a lot of hits to the face. ZA gets several other bonus Feats and abilities that Sohei doesn’t, particularly growing dice that go great with Enlarge (DEX malus doesn’t matter with WIS to AB)/Legendary and Perfect Strike upping it’s crits.

The Rapid/Flurry stacking is obvious bug and not that big of a deal. ZA effectively getting Rapid without the malus is a big selling point and one of the ways it makes up for the AB deficit. Then Flurry gives another attack at lvl 11 when third iterative kicks in to really go off. Manyshot can’t crit and doesn’t get Sneaks.

I suppose you could dismount and let the horse fight in melee while the Sohei sits at range, there's enough bonus feats that are at least usable by a ranged character in their bonus feat list. Seems like a lot of effort to not get to play with all the interesting combat maneuver stuff you can do with Sohei though.

By the by Nomad looks interesting for being the mounted melee archer you're talking about though.

 

[Desiderius]

Regular Slayer gets Studied too, what does that have to do with it? Divine damage from Deliverer *doesn’t stack* with Holy Weapon (like from Delamere’s Bow). If we talked about it before you were wrong then too. Deliverer is another meme from the people stuck in 3.5 who think Accomplished Sneak Attack is broken.

Let me test it again to make sure I’ve got the functionality right in Wrath so I don’t beclown myself like I did with Kineticist. Hard to stay on top of all the bugs.

As for dismounted Horse attacking that’s where you lose me on the RP, and that’s also a nonbo with Sohei’s Mounted Bonus Feats.

On my current run I went for MC Spawn Slayer mixed with Demonslayer, works nice but I gotta warn ya, it's extremely boring.

This kind of class duplication is explicitly warned against on the d20 site. Either one single-classed is going to be better than a combination. The point of Spawn Slayer is to help you overcome Size bonuses to land CMs on large targets. What CMs are you using at range? EDIT: it also gives you AB/dam bonuses agaisnt bigger targets, which is very good. May be worth it over base Slayer, though so is Swift Studied.

https://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/

Most heroes progress along a single path—choosing to become a fearsome fighter, pious cleric, or mighty wizard—but some are drawn to many roads. For them, it can be hard to find a balance between abilities offered by disparate classes. Hybrid classes solve this dilemma by blending features from two classes, adding rules to make them work seamlessly together.

Parent Classes: Each one of the following classes lists two classes that it draws upon to form the basis of its theme. While a character can multiclass with these parent classes, this usually results in redundant abilities. Such abilities don’t stack unless specified. If a class feature allows the character to make a one-time choice (such as a bloodline), that choice must match similar choices made by the parent classes and vice-versa (such as selecting the same bloodline). The new classes presented here are all hybrids of two existing core or base classes.

 

[Desiderius]

Sohei doesn’t get Point Blank Master so either your Horse isn’t fighting or you’re taking a lot of hits to the face. ZA gets several other bonus Feats and abilities that Sohei doesn’t, particularly growing dice that go great with Enlarge (DEX malus doesn’t matter with WIS to AB)/Legendary and Perfect Strike upping it’s crits.

The Rapid/Flurry stacking is obvious bug and not that big of a deal. ZA effectively getting Rapid without the malus is a big selling point and one of the ways it makes up for the AB deficit. Then Flurry gives another attack at lvl 11 when third iterative kicks in to really go off. Manyshot can’t crit and doesn’t get Sneaks.

I suppose you could dismount and let the horse fight in melee while the Sohei sits at range, there's enough bonus feats that are at least usable by a ranged character in their bonus feat list. Seems like a lot of effort to not get to play with all the interesting combat maneuver stuff you can do with Sohei though.

By the by Nomad looks interesting for being the mounted melee archer you're talking about though.

Nomad is super solid without anything being broken. Highly recommended. Note that Mounted Archers cannot Charge themselves, though their Mounts can. With Nomad its a good idea to fight with a melee weapon the first few levels so that you can use Combat Style to pick up your Ranged Feats. Otherwise you run out of good ones and you don't get the free Point Blank Master until lvl 5 anyway. Free Point Blank Master at lvl 3 on ZA makes Lann a good rider for Bismuth. He also gets Snap Shot for free and comes with Combat Reflexes.

Lol, not only does the Divine damage from Deliverer stack it also creates the famous extra damage packet that picks up damage bonuses on its own. Holy from Delamere's Bow and Angel Sword looks to be also stacking.



Notice the extra random packet at the end there. No idea where that's coming from. Still feels super shitty to lose first Combat Style Feat and first Advanced Slayer Feat but I know better than to stand between a man and his bug exploitation.

It'd be nice if you could just edit your posts to add more thoughts rather than double and triple posting constantly, I know having literally half the posts on this particular thread is apparently not enough for you but some of us might like to read what other people have to say, and having to go through five pages of "Everyone else is playing games wrong" to get to an actually relevant comment gets a bit old.

Tough to do on my phone with the way that quotes work (can't add during editing) but I'll try. Maybe check out how this thread did when I was on my break if you find it difficult to appreciate my contributions. 9 out of 10 posts about doing it wrong include me in the everyone. I tried stuff/followed the memes then tried other stuff and it worked better. Some of that knowledge was gained from P:K (including CotW) and has now been obsoleted by idiosyncratic implementation in Wrath so I'll be more careful about posting without (re-)testing going forward.

 

[Desiderius]

It'd be nice if you could just edit your posts to add more thoughts rather than double and triple posting constantly, I know having literally half the posts on this particular thread is apparently not enough for you but some of us might like to read what other people have to say, and having to go through five pages of "Everyone else is playing games wrong" to get to an actually relevant comment gets a bit old.

Tough to do on my phone with the way that quotes work (can't add during editing) but I'll try. Maybe check out how this thread did when I was on my break if you find it difficult to appreciate my contributions. 9 out of 10 posts about doing it wrong include me in the everyone. I tried stuff/followed the memes then tried other stuff and it worked better. Some of that knowledge was gained from P:K (including CotW) and has now been obsoleted by idiosyncratic implementation in Wrath so I'll be more careful about posting without (re-)testing going forward.

 

[Delterius]

So you grab boon companion with Nomad (if you dip) and build a mount around some CMD like Trip? I guess it's not a bad idea but is there anything a mounted archer can do that the normal mounted character can't?

 

[Desiderius]

Nomad is (only Ranger with) full pet, one of the main reasons why it's good. Doesn't need any CMs, but Ranged gets more attacks and can acquire new targets mid-Full Attack once the one you're next to dies, which it often will with your Mount helping. Lann starts with Combat Reflexes so benefits from a Mount like Dog or Wolf that can generate AoOs while getting him in position for them. PBM is the only complicating factor. ZA3/Urban Hunter/Divine Hound/Sacred Huntmaster (choose one to go with ZA3 to pick up PBM and other bonus Feats) isn't ideal since they're already Medium progression, but it's not bad either. I've done Lann ZA1/Nomad and it's solid (spell progression is even slower tho) if you want to leave Aru at home.

 

[ga♥]

What's the current gimmicky meta build for archery? Am I way off with a zen archer?

I'm confident the strongest pure class archer on higher difficulties is mutation warrior or ranger with the right favoured enemy, although mutation warrior with double weapon training in throwing axes is even better. The most important thing for an archer is attack bonus and mutation warrior and ranger are the best at stacking it. Sohei 11/mutation warrior 9 or just straight slayer is great too. Zen archer has very high damage, but has a hard time hitting things. If you're on normal difficulty it should work great though.

I used to like Slayer 10/Mutation warrior 9/Demonslayer1, which works great with Delamere.

 

[mediocrepoet]

It'd be nice if you could just edit your posts to add more thoughts rather than double and triple posting constantly, I know having literally half the posts on this particular thread is apparently not enough for you but some of us might like to read what other people have to say, and having to go through five pages of "Everyone else is playing games wrong" to get to an actually relevant comment gets a bit old.

Tough to do on my phone with the way that quotes work (can't add during editing) but I'll try. Maybe check out how this thread did when I was on my break if you find it difficult to appreciate my contributions. 9 out of 10 posts about doing it wrong include me in the everyone. I tried stuff/followed the memes then tried other stuff and it worked better. Some of that knowledge was gained from P:K (including CotW) and has now been obsoleted by idiosyncratic implementation in Wrath so I'll be more careful about posting without (re-)testing going forward.

It's true. Desi may be hard to swallow sometimes for any number of reasons, but the thread's still better with him around.

 

[Desiderius]

What's the current gimmicky meta build for archery? Am I way off with a zen archer?

I'm confident the strongest pure class archer on higher difficulties is mutation warrior or ranger with the right favoured enemy, although mutation warrior with double weapon training in throwing axes is even better. The most important thing for an archer is attack bonus and mutation warrior and ranger are the best at stacking it. Sohei 11/mutation warrior 9 or just straight slayer is great too. Zen archer has very high damage, but has a hard time hitting things. If you're on normal difficulty it should work great though.

I used to like Slayer 10/Mutation warrior 9/Demonslayer1, which works great with Delamere.

I guess Advanced Slayer Talents aren't as valuable for Ranged? Seems like for me Slayer 10 is where it's just starting to get good, and Advanced Quarry is something to stick around for at Free Action. I'm sure Slayer/Fighter (the Mut doesn't hit Greater until Mut Warrior 15 and you're not using the Bite or Nat Armor so ranged Mut doesn't do much) would be solid but maybe the double classes is where things get boring? One of my favorite things is unlocking the unique (and powerful) abilities at the higher levels of each class.

 

[ga♥]

What's the current gimmicky meta build for archery? Am I way off with a zen archer?

I'm confident the strongest pure class archer on higher difficulties is mutation warrior or ranger with the right favoured enemy, although mutation warrior with double weapon training in throwing axes is even better. The most important thing for an archer is attack bonus and mutation warrior and ranger are the best at stacking it. Sohei 11/mutation warrior 9 or just straight slayer is great too. Zen archer has very high damage, but has a hard time hitting things. If you're on normal difficulty it should work great though.

I used to like Slayer 10/Mutation warrior 9/Demonslayer1, which works great with Delamere.

I guess Advanced Slayer Talents aren't as valuable for Ranged? Seems like for me Slayer 10 is where it's just starting to get good, and Advanced Quarry is something to stick around for at Free Action. I'm sure Slayer/Fighter (the Mut doesn't hit Greater until Mut Warrior 15 and you're not using the Bite or Nat Armor so ranged Mut doesn't do much) would be solid but maybe the double classes is where things get boring? One of my favorite things is unlocking the unique (and powerful) abilities at the higher levels of each class.

Boring for sure, but was the king of DPS in my party.
Pretty solid for a MC and low effort (or boring).
Ranged mutatiton is to get the greater weapon focus at level 8 (which would justify the mythic as it would be +2) and weapon training.
(Also Delamare had the dispel attack as advanced slayer talent prepicked as joining at level 10, which had such a low DC that it never dispelled anything, not sure if intended or bug and it was fixed, but the strenght damage one seems a better pick in case of MC).
This said, Advanced Quarry is nice to have, but you can get the same as passive by multi, and having it always on all enemies.
By multiclassing slayer on a ranged character you don't leave much on the table IMHO.

 

[Mr. Magniloquent]

Daidre I prefer Spawn Slayer. You only lose Studied Target as a swift action. I tend to only use it once per combat at inception and only on the biggest bad, so it generally doesn't hurt. That the baddest foe often tends to be the biggest, I find it to be a quality over quantity proposition with this archetype. Since you can apply Studied Target upon sneak attack, which is very easy to do, Spawn Slayers give up very little.

 

[Desiderius]

Daidre I prefer Spawn Slayer. You only lose Studied Target as a swift action. I tend to only use it once per combat at inception and only on the biggest bad, so it generally doesn't hurt. That the baddest foe often tends to be the biggest, I find it to be a quality over quantity proposition with this archetype. Since you can apply Studied Target upon sneak attack, which is very easy to do, Spawn Slayers give up very little.

Nice, I was only remembering the CMB bonus but (now?) it gets AB/Dam bonuses against larger targets as well. The downside is a little bigger than you're saying because some of the hardest targets are immune to Sneaks and the Swift Studied helps you land the first Sneak in a Full Attack but what you're getting for the trade is substantial as well.

Ranged mutatiton is to get the greater weapon focus at level 8 (which would justify the mythic as it would be +2) and weapon training.
(Also Delamare had the dispel attack as advanced slayer talent prepicked as joining at level 10, which had such a low DC that it never dispelled anything, not sure if intended or bug and it was fixed, but the strenght damage one seems a better pick in case of MC).
This said, Advanced Quarry is nice to have, but you can get the same as passive by multi, and having it always on all enemies.
By multiclassing slayer on a ranged character you don't leave much on the table IMHO.

What I was saying was that Mut doesn't get much more than base Fighter though of course with only ten levels you're not getting a ton of Armor Training either, you do get the speed bonus. I like to do some melee with Ranged Fighters since they set up well for it. I'm not sure Greater Focus justifies a Feat + a Mythic but maybe on Unfair you gotta do what you gotta do. For me that means group stuff more than eking out an AB here and there at the expense of Mythics. Weapon Training obv turns on Gloves and is very solid.

I built a TWF Slayer MC in P:K looking forward to endless procs on Dispelling Attack only to discover when I got there that it was bugged. It should be using your Character Level now which also unfortunately doesn't do much due to sky-high CLs on most buffs. I'm talking more about progressing Studied Target bonus and Sneaks but also getting things like Familiar to boost skills/Initiative (Slayer is half Rogue), Opportunist, Slippery Mind, Improved Uncanny (which isn't as good on Ranged), and there's always something I want there. Advanced Quarry + Studied + Sneaks > Weapon Training + Gloves, especially if you already have another Fighter. Mut's basically +2 AB but hurts Will Saves (already a weakness) and Perception checks.

 

[Delterius]

you know how certain games have a 'you have 1 hp' challenge mode?

so hear me out: kinetic blade elemental siege engine

 

[user]

Nope mostly not - some useful ones work only for melee. As for dispelling/sickening etc strike, as cool as they sound, I can never imagine them actually working with these kind of DCs. Has anyone ever tested the improved snapshot line of feats btw? Would make opportunist really interesting for ranged.

WotR of the day - This thing and its head are the latest addition to the party. At least it can somehow still shoot so not complaining.

 

[Daidre]

Has anyone ever tested the improved snapshot line of feats btw? Would make opportunist really interesting for ranged.

Opportunist works fine with Snap Shot line. I've tried Archer-Azata-on-the-dog build where pet's attacks and trips gave rider AoOs. And with Seize the Moment shared on the whole party, most things just died in the AoO cascade after she connected with them. There is only one issue - reach with the first Snap Shot feat is not good enough for everything to work smoothly, you'd need Enlarge on top of it until Improved Snapshot will come online.

 

[Yosharian]

https://www.neoseeker.com/pathfinder-wrath-of-the-righteous/builds/Melee_Lich_Legend#Caster_Oracle

Same pile of shit like any Neoseeker build)

What's wrong with neoseeker builds? I never used them mind you, but the guide was the best place to look up info on the various mythics during early launch, and possibly still is. Also a decent way to quickly check with archetypes are worth a damn.

They're generally allergic to rp sensibilities, they're pure min-max builds for highest difficulty, to they tend to be Frankenstein's monsters from the rp point of view.

Here we go with more 'pure classes are better than multiclass builds for ARR PEE REASONS' bullshit

 

[Jaedar]

Here we go with more 'pure classes are better than multiclass builds for ARR PEE REASONS' bullshit

It really depends imo. I have no trouble seeing someone going say fighter/slayer, they're related disciplines. But when you see something like scaled fist + paladin + oracle + mutation warrior it gets a bit silly from an rp perspective imo. Personally, I'll still do stuff like that to the MC or mercs if I feel like it, but for companions I stick to RP multiclassing, so I'm not gonna rewrite reality to give regill a sorcerous bloodline or something like that.

 

[Daidre]

@Daidre I prefer Spawn Slayer. You only lose Studied Target as a swift action. I tend to only use it once per combat at inception and only on the biggest bad, so it generally doesn't hurt. That the baddest foe often tends to be the biggest, I find it to be a quality over quantity proposition with this archetype. Since you can apply Studied Target upon sneak attack, which is very easy to do, Spawn Slayers give up very little.

Last time I've tested Spawn Slayer several months ago his unique Study mechanic was just straight up not working, but I had not tried it on EE.
And I am always hesitant to recommend people something that was completely broken not so long ago, afaik.

 

[Yosharian]

As for dispelling strike

I can never imagine them actually working with these kind of DCs.

Wat

 

[Yosharian]

But when you see something like scaled fist + paladin + oracle + mutation warrior it gets a bit silly from an rp perspective imo.

No it doesn't.

 

[Jaedar]

But when you see something like scaled fist + paladin + oracle + mutation warrior it gets a bit silly from an rp perspective imo.

No it doesn't.

It's fine if you disagree! But well, personally:
Scaled fist: the rp behind this is that you have studied a special form of monkery that requires draconic blood for a long enough time to make your fists as deadly if not deadlier than a sword.
Paladin: RP is you are such a goody goody lawful gooder that a god has chosen to bless you in (exchange for your service in bettering the world)
Oracle: RP is again you were chosen by a god, but in a different way to paladin.
Mutation warrior: you're a warrior who has also devoted lots of time to alchemy to fortify yourself.

So you know, a person who is twice chosen by the gods, has had enough time to master at least 3 separate disciplines and also has a sorcerous bloodline.... for me it strains belief, this is the protag of a bad novel, not an actual human being.

 

[Daidre]

Well I fucking hate Oracle-Paladin in particular for a reason that has nothing to do with RP - you either dip into paladin early and destroy your spell progression, or you take it late (18+) when it no longer matters and destroy your Final Revelation x2.

 

[user]

As for dispelling strike

I can never imagine them actually working with these kind of DCs.

Wat

For painful strike that sickens the target must pass a DC fortitude of 20ish or smth? I think it also scales with INT but in my case I don't have any.
Dispelling strike scales off levels - maybe its DC is viable on hard? But I read somewhere that it can also dispel debuffs, no idea if it's true, I'll try to test.