Pathfinder Pathfinder: Wrath of the Righteous - Game of the Year Edition

Desiderius · Oct 23, 2022

Bookworm’s Headband makes you immune to Compulsion. Not sure if Unbreakable Heart has been fixed yet but it’s a first lvl spell that’s in most spellbooks.

Grunker · Oct 23, 2022

Desiderius said:
Bookworm’s Headband makes you immune to Compulsion. Not sure if Unbreakable Heart has been fixed yet but it’s a first lvl spell that’s in most spellbooks.

I'm a Demon so Compulsion is easy now that I got Mythic 4. Took Aspect of Succubus as my first aspect. I don't think it's a strong competition - yeah, other Aspects are definetely better for player power, but this one seems like excellent QoL, and the AB bonus is great in my 7x melee party (4 chars, 3 pets):

Demon adopts the aspect of Succubus, gaining a bonus on all Persuasion, Perception, and Knowledge: World skill checks equal to half of the Demon's mythic rank plus one. Those bonuses do not stack with other bonuses from demonic aspects.

During a demonic rage, all Enemies within 30 feet of a Demon with an aspect of Succubus gain a -1 penalty to Will saves and a -1 penalty to attack rolls while all allies within a 30 feet gain a +1 bonus to Will saves and attack rolls, and an immunity to compulsion and fear effects. These penalties and bonuses increase by one at 6th and 9th mythic ranks.

It even has the best skill bonus for my character (Persuasion - which is prevalent in solo checks + my MC's cornugon smash and later Dreadful Carnage).

Humbaba · Oct 23, 2022

Grunker said:
Desiderius said:

Bookworm’s Headband makes you immune to Compulsion. Not sure if Unbreakable Heart has been fixed yet but it’s a first lvl spell that’s in most spellbooks.

Click to expand...

I'm a Demon so Compulsion is easy now that I got Mythic 4. Took Aspect of Succubus as my first aspect. I don't think it's a strong competition - yeah, other Aspects are definetely better for player power, but this one seems like excellent QoL, and the AB bonus is great in my 7x melee party (4 chars, 3 pets):

Demon adopts the aspect of Succubus, gaining a bonus on all Persuasion, Perception, and Knowledge: World skill checks equal to half of the Demon's mythic rank plus one. Those bonuses do not stack with other bonuses from demonic aspects.

During a demonic rage, all Enemies within 30 feet of a Demon with an aspect of Succubus gain a -1 penalty to Will saves and a -1 penalty to attack rolls while all allies within a 30 feet gain a +1 bonus to Will saves and attack rolls, and an immunity to compulsion and fear effects. These penalties and bonuses increase by one at 6th and 9th mythic ranks.

Click to expand...

It even has the best skill bonus for my character (Persuasion - which is prevalent in solo checks + my MC's cornugon smash and later Dreadful Carnage).

That does sound pretty good actually. Though there's lots of spells that take care of mind affecting spells, like unbreakable heart, protection from evil or mind blank at higher levels.

Grunker · Oct 23, 2022

Unbreakable Heart doesn't seem to work - at least again some effects. I've never seen Unbreakable Work against Derakni confusion, for example. The suppression part of it, that is.

Humbaba · Oct 23, 2022

So does it work or doesn't it? It doesn't grant immunity, only suppression for its duration and a bonus on the saving throw. It works against gibber at any rate.

EDIT: https://forum.owlcat.games/t/mechanic-unbreakable-heart-doesnt-counter-suppress-confusion/47251

You are probably correct, but just one nuance : if the Confusion effect randomly selects “attack nearest creature” and it is an ally, then Unbreakable Heart is supposed to suppress the Confusion effect. Otherwise, the rules should be that the ally has +4 to save.

It also did not work versus Dominate, which I presumed was a design decision because Dominate is a level 5 effect… but it should suppress Confusion before a companion attacks an ally.

I for one didn't notice any allies attacking each other when I went through leper's smile while applying unbreakable heart.

Grunker · Oct 23, 2022

Humbaba said:
So does it work or doesn't it? It doesn't grant immunity, only suppression for its duration and a bonus on the saving throw. It works against gibber at any rate.

EDIT: https://forum.owlcat.games/t/mechanic-unbreakable-heart-doesnt-counter-suppress-confusion/47251

You are probably correct, but just one nuance : if the Confusion effect randomly selects “attack nearest creature” and it is an ally, then Unbreakable Heart is supposed to suppress the Confusion effect. Otherwise, the rules should be that the ally has +4 to save.

It also did not work versus Dominate, which I presumed was a design decision because Dominate is a level 5 effect… but it should suppress Confusion before a companion attacks an ally.

Click to expand...

I for one didn't notice any allies attacking each other when I went through leper's smile while applying unbreakable heart.

Not sure what that guy means. Shouldn't Unbreakable Heart suppress Confusion as a whole?

What he says makes sense though. My allies sometimes attack each other under Confusion, but that's probably just when UH has run out (short duration). They definetely don't ignore the other effects though - they'll often take the damage, skip their turn or attack nearest enemy.

Humbaba · Oct 23, 2022

The target creature gains a +4 morale bonus on saving throws against mind-affecting effects that rely on negative emotions (such as crushing despair, rage or fear effects) or that would force them to harm an ally (such as confusion)/ If the target is already under such an effect when receiving this spell, that effect is suppressed for the duration of this spell.

From the wording it means that the spell only prevents people from hitting each other, not confusion as a whole. After all, confusion does not only cause allies to attack each other, oftentimes they just stand around gormlessly doing nothing.

Grunker · Oct 23, 2022

Humbaba said:
The target creature gains a +4 morale bonus on saving throws against mind-affecting effects that rely on negative emotions (such as crushing despair, rage or fear effects) or that would force them to harm an ally (such as confusion)/ If the target is already under such an effect when receiving this spell, that effect is suppressed for the duration of this spell.

Click to expand...

From the wording it means that the spell only prevents people from hitting each other, not confusion as a whole. After all, confusion does not only cause allies to attack each other, oftentimes they just stand around gormlessly doing nothing.

By which definition is Confusion not a negative emotional effect though :D

If that's RAW, I guess, but man it's impressive if Owlcat has coded that right considering some of the things they haven't

Grunker · Oct 23, 2022

(UH should supresse both effects that would force you to harm an ally AND "effects that rely on negative emotions")

Humbaba · Oct 23, 2022

Confusion isn't a negative emotional effect afaik.

Grunker · Oct 23, 2022

Humbaba said:
Confusion isn't a negative emotional effect afaik.

Kingmaker wiki has a list actually:

https://pathfinderkingmaker.fandom.com/wiki/Category:Negative_Emotion_spells_and_abilities

I don't know why Confusion isn't a negative emotional effect. It's definetely negative, so maybe Pathfinder doesn't consider it emotional? :D

Rieser · Oct 23, 2022

Are there any summons who are actually good? I like the idea of a summoning build but it just seem so toothless mechanically given what I've seen from summons thus far

Humbaba · Oct 23, 2022

Summons are meatshields and distractions for when you're extremely outnumbered and need to keep people busy.

Grunker · Oct 23, 2022

Rieser said:
Are there any summons who are actually good? I like the idea of a summoning build but it just seem so toothless mechanically given what I've seen from summons thus far

I played a Monster Tactician with Animal Domain in Kingmaker, it was pretty sick. Summons are still for tanking more than damage though, I don't think it's possible on Unfair to kill things with your summons. Monster Tactician is fun because after you've summoned all your things, he can do a variety of things

Unless there's some insane Mythic I haven't considered

You should be able to summon an absolute shitton of creatures with the right gear though

Lambach · Oct 23, 2022

My Summons as a Monster Tactician Aeon are actually fairly strong on Core. With the right equipment, Summon-augmenting Feats, Teamwork Feats, Aeon's Gazes and group Buffs (e.g. Haste) they can pack a solid punch. Biggest problem is that their AI is atrocious.

Grunker · Oct 23, 2022

Lambach said:
My Summons as a Monster Tactician Aeon are actually fairly strong on Core. With the right equipment, Summon-augmenting Feats, Teamwork Feats, Aeon's Gazes and group Buffs (e.g. Haste) they can pack a solid punch. Biggest problem is that their AI is atrocious.

Summon (and ally) AI is way worse in WotR in general. Enemies in WotR are more likely to do stuff that provokes AoE - which is correct because they often have high Concentration or abilities that avoid AoE.

Summons seem to use the same AI and are not gifted with these abilities, so they frequently get one-popped if they’re casters. Especially frequent with the angels from Duality

Yosharian · Oct 23, 2022

I can't imagine actually trying to use summons to deal damage

Desiderius · Oct 23, 2022

Rieser said:
Are there any summons who are actually good? I like the idea of a summoning build but it just seem so toothless mechanically given what I've seen from summons thus far

Monitor Lizards, Dire Wolves, Azatas/Axiomites if you need Lightning (and protect yourselves), Devas, Soul Eaters, Redcaps

Leopards and above from Druids, Animate Dead, item Summons, Changestaff Treant (long duration)

If your summons suck you’re not using enough AoE buff/debuffs. Augment Summoning requires Spell Focus Conj and Conj Spells bypass SR so Summoner goes well with less hardcore casters like Shaman (Hexes also bypass SR) but you still want fast progression (or a class like Monster Tactician/Beast Tamer that specializes in Summoning) to get to the good ones.

It’s not Diablo - you’ve got five other characters - but they can still do more than 1/6 of your offense while playing good D.

Desiderius · Oct 23, 2022

Grunker said:
Lambach said:

My Summons as a Monster Tactician Aeon are actually fairly strong on Core. With the right equipment, Summon-augmenting Feats, Teamwork Feats, Aeon's Gazes and group Buffs (e.g. Haste) they can pack a solid punch. Biggest problem is that their AI is atrocious.

Click to expand...

Summon (and ally) AI is way worse in WotR in general. Enemies in WotR are more likely to do stuff that provokes AoE - which is correct because they often have high Concentration or abilities that avoid AoE.

Summons seem to use the same AI and are not gifted with these abilities, so they frequently get one-popped if they’re casters. Especially frequent with the angels from Duality

You can choose where you place them. Most summons aren’t casters in any case. Biggest AI issue is casters nuking your own team, which can be managed with Lightning but can cause stun problems with the Sound Burst.

Grunker said:
I don't know why Confusion isn't a negative emotional effect.

Affliction of the mind not the heart.

Jaedar · Oct 23, 2022

Grunker said:
Humbaba said:

Confusion isn't a negative emotional effect afaik.

Click to expand...

Kingmaker wiki has a list actually:

https://pathfinderkingmaker.fandom.com/wiki/Category:Negative_Emotion_spells_and_abilities

I don't know why Confusion isn't a negative emotional effect. It's definetely negative, so maybe Pathfinder doesn't consider it emotional? :D

Desiderius said:
Affliction of the mind not the heart.

Yeah, confusion not being emotional makes perfect sense imo. Emotions are stuff like rage, fear, depression. Not insanity or confusion. Otherwise emotion and mind-affecting just become synonyms.

I was going to make a joke about how owlcat thinking confusion is a positive effect explaining a lot about their patching process, but correcting Grunker errors is more important.

Yosharian said:
I can't imagine actually trying to use summons to deal damage

It worked in kingmaker, at least on lower difficulties and levels (wolves are insane with the free trips). I can't imagine it in Wroff.

Desiderius · Oct 23, 2022

Either I've gotten to be a lot better player (unlikely) or Wrath has been significantly nerfed at some point. Maybe TB really is easier? Tank Seelah (and tanking in general) maybe just makes it feel easier? I'm sure there will be fights (like Gargs coming up) where sitting back behind a tank won't be so viable. I guess we'll see.

As with most things base summoning isn't as good by itself in Wrath but Wrath also gives you more abilities/items to enhance it (everything). You won't be tearing up bosses with summons but they should be able to take on regular mobs so your team can focus on bosses.

user · Oct 23, 2022

Desiderius said:
Can’t you eliminate some of the flesh market foes before that fight? Usually if you have to cheese you’ve missed some alternative.

Yeah it's only because of my own stupid self-imposed rules (playing a solo char) and heightened overwhelming grief was the only spell that had some chance of affecting that gribileth which also had ridiculous touch AC. And it was still immune to sneak even when CCed. Couldn't nuke it down with my AT/Enchanter, but if I had Aivu I would be able to.