Pathfinder Pathfinder: Wrath of the Righteous - Game of the Year Edition

[ga♥]

Unless it was recently "balanced", wizard generals made life easier.
My first ever playthrough, one year ago, I picked a warrior general and oh man.

Especially the gargoyles you encounter in chapter 2 near Regil's place.

 

[Haplo]

For Unfair Mad Dog with Leopard would probably be most painless, though as Daidre notes you can also get the Leopard from a companion.

We tested Hagbound and if Vile Curse is using the right stat now it works well with Demon.

I’m playing Polymorphed (with Mythic Poly) Instinctual Warrior and its solid. Straight up IW should also be good.

I was wondering about the vital strike 11 rowdy / 9 vivi or 20 two-handed figter (both should be similarly strong).
I'm just not sure if vital strike makes any sense on Unfair.

Does wide sweep work with a vital strike?

No, Wide Sweep does not do aoe Vital Strikes. Just regular strikes. Therefore wants to attack often, not once per round.

Vital Strike can be used on Unfair and can be pretty potent, but its generally easier to have multiple iterative, which are particularly deadly if you can get Pounce from somewhere (for example from Skald with Greater Beast Totem).

 

[Desiderius]

Unless it was recently "balanced", wizard generals made life easier.
My first ever playthrough, one year ago, I picked a warrior general and oh man.

Especially the gargoyles you encounter in chapter 2 near Regil's place.

Won that this time without a fight.

You do buy the army from Irabeth, right?

Last time I fought them it took four rounds and was trivial. Gargs themselves have -2 damage lol, and if you take either the +2 dam or Close Combat abilities you can cut through them fast, especially since Cleric Smite bypasses DR.

 

[Lambach]

It’s… not objectively the best. I don’t think you guys know what objectively means. Not a one-dimensional game and any general can blow out the game since it’s too easy.

Yes, any General can, but Mage types can do it sooner and to a much greater degree. Specially at high levels. After you pick up Fire Storm + Twincast on a Mage General, you pretty much don't even need an army anymore. If you win Initiative, a double Fire Storm right after the battle starts is almost always enough to completely wipe out the enemy army without any of your units having to attack once*. No other General type can do that. And even earlier, neither of the other two General types get anything as impactful as Fireball at level 7, Hold Monster/Ice Storm at level 10 (or was it 11?) etc. This doesn't mean the other types can't also be strong if you know what you're doing, but Mages are objectively the best on top of requiring the least amount of effort to play effectively. This is pretty much universally agreed upon.

*inb4 "what about armies with Balors and other fire-immune creatures?", but in that case just replace Fire Storm with Greater Channel Negative Energy and the same applies

 

[Desiderius]

For Unfair Mad Dog with Leopard would probably be most painless, though as Daidre notes you can also get the Leopard from a companion.

We tested Hagbound and if Vile Curse is using the right stat now it works well with Demon.

I’m playing Polymorphed (with Mythic Poly) Instinctual Warrior and its solid. Straight up IW should also be good.

I was wondering about the vital strike 11 rowdy / 9 vivi or 20 two-handed figter (both should be similarly strong).
I'm just not sure if vital strike makes any sense on Unfair.

Does wide sweep work with a vital strike?

No, Wide Sweep does not do aoe Vital Strikes. Just regular strikes. Therefore wants to attack often, not once per round.

Vital Strike can be used on Unfair and can be pretty potent, but its generally easier to have multiple iterative, which are particularly deadly if you can get Pounce from somewhere (for example from Skald with Greater Beast Totem).

Since they made it a Standard Action it goes well (along with Cleave) with classes that have powerful Move Actions to pair with it like Freebooter's Bane and Demon Teleport. Or just you know moving, but Demon doesn't need to do that.

 

[Desiderius]

It’s… not objectively the best. I don’t think you guys know what objectively means. Not a one-dimensional game and any general can blow out the game since it’s too easy.

Yes, any General can, but Mage types can do it sooner and to a much greater degree. Specially at high levels. After you pick up Fire Storm + Twincast on a Mage General, you pretty much don't even need an army anymore. If you win Initiative, a double Fire Storm right after the battle starts is almost always enough to completely wipe out the enemy army without any of your units having to attack once*. No other General type can do that. And even earlier, neither of the other two General types get anything as impactful as Fireball at level 7, Hold Monster/Ice Storm at level 10 (or was it 11?) etc. This doesn't mean the other types can't also be strong if you know what you're doing, but Mages are objectively the best on top of requiring the least amount of effort to play effectively. This is pretty much universally agreed upon.

*inb4 "what about armies with Balors and other fire-immune creatures?", but in that case just replace Fire Storm with Greater Channel Negative Energy and the same applies

And Ranger gets AoE Confuse to start with and Melee gets AoE Stun soon enough. If you're having trouble breezing through the game with any of them you're hardly even trying.

Now you can even buy the army and take your time and hardly even have to fight anything at all.

Seriously, social contagions get going and people just turn off their brains. If you've ever done Pikemen armies in HoMM Melee General can do the same to use crappy cheap units while Caster takes the high end stuff. Only problem is that the way the game is now you only need one army so might as well do Caster to fry that Undead army in the way of the west part of the map. The Enemy Sorc that Melee might be better against is just an optional fight.

 

[ga♥]

Unless it was recently "balanced", wizard generals made life easier.
My first ever playthrough, one year ago, I picked a warrior general and oh man.

Especially the gargoyles you encounter in chapter 2 near Regil's place.

Won that this time without a fight.

You do buy the army from Irabeth, right?

Last time I fought them it took four rounds and was trivial. Gargs themselves have -2 damage lol, and if you take either the +2 dam or Close Combat abilities you can cut through them fast, especially since Cleric Smite bypasses DR.

The fact you need to buy Irabeth's army and with a caster general you don't makes it better, don't you think?
Anyway no, I don't buy the army and don't buy materials or anything else, I save all gold from chap II and III to buy items (like rods from skele merchant that will disappear in the next chapter) and chapter IV items.

Also how do you deal with the incubus army with the incubus general spamming rays with a warrior general? That's chapter II as well.

 

[Lambach]

And Ranger gets AoE Confuse to start with and Melee gets AoE Stun soon enough. If you're having trouble breezing through the game with any of them you're hardly even trying.

I didn't say I was having trouble, I said Mage Generals make an easy thing even easier than other types. E.g. you can't beat a level 8 enemy army with a level 3 army of your own with a Ranger type. You can with a Mage, by, say, spamming Ice Storm to make sure enemy units take forever to reach your own while simultaneously doing massive AoE damage to them.

Other types exist mostly to bolster your existing army, Mages are like having an additional army on the field.

 

[Desiderius]

Unless it was recently "balanced", wizard generals made life easier.
My first ever playthrough, one year ago, I picked a warrior general and oh man.

Especially the gargoyles you encounter in chapter 2 near Regil's place.

Won that this time without a fight.

You do buy the army from Irabeth, right?

Last time I fought them it took four rounds and was trivial. Gargs themselves have -2 damage lol, and if you take either the +2 dam or Close Combat abilities you can cut through them fast, especially since Cleric Smite bypasses DR.

The fact you need to buy Irabeth's army and with a caster general you don't makes it better, don't you think?
Anyway no, I don't buy the army and don't buy materials or anything else, I save all gold from chap II and III to buy items (like rods from skele merchant that will disappear in the next chapter) and chapter IV items.

Also how do you deal with the incubus army with the incubus general spamming rays with a warrior general? That's chapter II as well.

It's 7.5k lol. I don't have to it's foolish not to, especially now that you can just skip everything if you have enough units, including Incubus fight. Yeah, I never buy resources until beginning of ch 3 since Mats are so cheap but still only maybe 10-15k to get the ball rolling.

How did I win Incubus fight when you couldn't skip it? Stocking up on max Clerics and doing one fight a day instead of rushing thorough the map. Melee General gets bigger Heal Tent.

you can't beat a level 8 enemy army with a level 3 army

This is not a situation that comes up. My lvl 4 Melee Army took out the lvl 6 Minos to get STR belt and went down to clear out the lvl7 Skelies at lvl 6 this time because they could.

Other types exist mostly to bolster your existing army, Mages are like having an additional army on the field.

Considering that you only need one the way the game is now this isn't something I'm interested in anyway. If I were I'd want a Melee second general to make good use of all the chaff that would otherwise go to waste.

Ranger/Melee is probably about 10% weaker than Caster if I had to guess, which is an exact reflection of their vaporware main ability, but that's irrelevant as the game stands where they're all faceroll.

Melee gets its heal a little late but other than that General type really isn't a limiting factor.

 

[ga♥]

Unless it was recently "balanced", wizard generals made life easier.
My first ever playthrough, one year ago, I picked a warrior general and oh man.

Especially the gargoyles you encounter in chapter 2 near Regil's place.

Won that this time without a fight.

You do buy the army from Irabeth, right?

Last time I fought them it took four rounds and was trivial. Gargs themselves have -2 damage lol, and if you take either the +2 dam or Close Combat abilities you can cut through them fast, especially since Cleric Smite bypasses DR.

The fact you need to buy Irabeth's army and with a caster general you don't makes it better, don't you think?
Anyway no, I don't buy the army and don't buy materials or anything else, I save all gold from chap II and III to buy items (like rods from skele merchant that will disappear in the next chapter) and chapter IV items.

Also how do you deal with the incubus army with the incubus general spamming rays with a warrior general? That's chapter II as well.

It's 7.5k lol. I don't have to it's foolish not to, especially now that you can just skip everything if you have enough units, including Incubus fight. Yeah, I never buy resources until beginning of ch 3 since Mats are so cheap but still only maybe 10-15k to get the ball rolling.

How did I win Incubus fight when you couldn't skip it? Stocking up on max Clerics and doing one fight a day instead of rushing thorough the map. Melee General gets bigger Heal Tent.

I was not aware that now you can skip fights, I am talking about the preskipping era obviously.
Anyway clerics are mercs and you need to wait they get replenished, and if you need to buy them in a decent amount, especially at the start, you need to spend $$$.
Same with the army.
So mage generals used to be objectively better, no need to spend gold, no need to wait etc etc.
Now with the skipping it may as well not matter anymore.

 

[Lambach]

Also how do you deal with the incubus army with the incubus general spamming rays with a warrior general? That's chapter II as well.

A Warrior General can also get Cure Wounds at a certain level, so in theory you can neutralize that Incubus' impact on the battle if you can heal as much as he damages each turn. But that also means you must have an army strong enough to handle his with effectively no other help from your General. Perfectly doable, but it's for sure much easier to win that battle with a Mage of equal level.

Ranger/Melee is probably about 10% weaker than Caster

Mages can win battles before they start, specially from level 17, other types need at least 1-2 moves. Not sure how I'd calculate the percentage there, but I'd say it's probably way above 10%.

But, I'm glad you finally admitted, even as begrudgingly as you did, that Mages are objectively stronger. Which was my original point. Not sure how you got from "Mages are objectively superior" to "Mages are necessary to faceroll".

 

[ga♥]

it's for sure much easier to win that battle with a Mage of equal level.

That's the point.
Next playthrough I will pick a warrior general at start just for the challenge and for the sake of variation.

Btw kingmaker "kingdom management" was so much better than this, I am so glad you can now skip the fights.

 

[Desiderius]

I was not aware that now you can skip fights, I am talking about the preskipping era obviously.
Anyway clerics are mercs and you need to wait they get replenished, and if you need to buy them in a decent amount, especially at the start, you need to spend $$$.
Same with the army.
So mage generals used to be objectively better, no need to spend gold, no need to wait etc etc.
Now with the skipping it may as well not matter anymore.

Again with the second person.

I just completed ch 2, got two stacks of Clerics per week (3 or 4 weeks not sure which), and bought no Finances. Don't buy HKs (although if I'm not mistaken they've been buffed too).

It mattered to get the STR belt so Seelah could carry around a Tower without being encumbered and there were a couple other fights I think. I'm pretty sure it will matter a great deal soon (ch 3) to unlock parts of the map and items I want access to.

Btw kingmaker "kingdom management" was so much better than this, I am so glad you can now skip the fights.

It's about where KM was before Wildcards, so maybe the Shifter DLC is where they'll finally take another real pass at it. The addition of the skipping means they are still working on it.

 

[Lambach]

Btw kingmaker "kingdom management" was so much better than this

Meh, I'd say equally shitty-ish, but in the opposite direction. Crusade Mode is too predictable and easy, Kingdom Management was too random and prone to punishing players just for having bad luck.

 

[Desiderius]

A Warrior General can also get Cure Wounds at a certain level, so in theory you can neutralize that Incubus' impact on the battle if you can heal as much as he damages each turn. But that also means you must have an army strong enough to handle his with effectively no other help from your General. Perfectly doable, but it's for sure much easier to win that battle with a Mage of equal level.

Sigh.

Why do people post on things they have no idea about. No, Melee General doesn't get Heal until ch 3. It does get a bigger Heal Tent.

No help from the General what? Do people just not read abilities? Seriously don't get this. Does suck that the main ability appears to do nothing. I'll pay closer attention and see if this is just a Combat Log issue.

prone to punishing players just for having bad luck

Not meaningfully. You'd have to get awfully unlucky for it to matter much if you're playing well. The mechanics are much better explained in Wrath though so maybe you were missing some things in KM that reduced the margin for error.

I'm glad you finally admitted, even as begrudgingly as you did, that Mages are objectively stronger.

As with the free Kinetic Infusions I don't count obvious bugs as objective. Hunt is akin to Freebooter's Bane, Dispersal of Forces to Weapon Training on Fighter. Take those away and say that Wiz/Sorc is objectively better and you're not saying anything meaningful.

 

[Lambach]

No, Melee General doesn't get Heal until ch 3. It does get a bigger Heal Tent.

I always go with 2 Generals in Ch 2 and try to keep them at roughly equal level, so obviously neither gets full XP. Are you saying it's impossible to get a single Warrior General to a high enough level to get Cure Wounds if you use only him to clear out everything available in Ch 2 other than the Incubus Fortress?

 

[ga♥]

I was not aware that now you can skip fights, I am talking about the preskipping era obviously.
Anyway clerics are mercs and you need to wait they get replenished, and if you need to buy them in a decent amount, especially at the start, you need to spend $$$.
Same with the army.
So mage generals used to be objectively better, no need to spend gold, no need to wait etc etc.
Now with the skipping it may as well not matter anymore.

Again with the second person.

I just completed ch 2, got two stacks of Clerics per week (3 or 4 weeks not sure which), and bought no Finances. Don't buy HKs (although if I'm not mistaken they've been buffed too).

But you said you are skipping the fights (autoresolve?).

Also I am 100% sure I had not enough gold to buy the clerics you say you bought.
So either, they changed something on crusade side, or you are waiting a lot by massing buildings and shit, if you don't convert party gold in crusade units.

 

[ga♥]

It's about where KM was before Wildcards, so maybe the Shifter DLC is where they'll finally take another real pass at it. The addition of the skipping means they are still working on it.

Skipping sounds more like they gave up.
I am ok with that as I don't think it can be saved.

Rather they fix chapter V and late mythic paths.

 

[ga♥]

Btw kingmaker "kingdom management" was so much better than this

Meh, I'd say equally shitty-ish, but in the opposite direction. Crusade Mode is too predictable and easy, Kingdom Management was too random and prone to punishing players just for having bad luck.

Crusade feels too disconnected from the main game, and after mid game has no challenge, and is more a chore than anything.
Kingdom management had nice rewards (artisans, versus not so great relics), occasionally quests, and they took great care in writing down all different kind of resolutions based on the advisor you used, which I appreciated. All in all it felt more connected to the story.
I have never felt it as a punishment when a bad roll happened.

While lich creating a cluttering new army after every fight (I think now you can "delete" armies instead of being stuck with Crusade Army MMMDCCXXIV), or swarm general not being able to teleport on the map, surely felt like a pain in the ass.

 

[Lambach]

Crusade feels too disconnected from the main game

Probably because it was implemented poorly, but idea-wise, ripping of HoMM was a good choice and fits the theme of your character being in charge of a military operation with a specific goal.

I don't think it's unsalvageable, but it would require a major overhaul to make it good and that doesn't seem to be a remote consideration for Owlcat's to-do list.

 

[ga♥]

Crusade feels too disconnected from the main game

Probably because it was implemented poorly, but idea-wise, ripping of HoMM was a good choice and fits the theme of your character being in charge of a military operation with a specific goal.

It was implemented poorly because they listened to all people complaining about kingdom management and time limits, so they came up with this.

 

[Desiderius]

But you said you are skipping the fights (autoresolve?).

Also I am 100% sure I had not enough gold to buy the clerics you say you bought.
So either, they changed something on crusade side, or you are waiting a lot by massing buildings and shit, if you don't convert party gold in crusade units.

There are no buildings in ch2. I fight once per day with the army, and had enough Finances to buy both Cleric stacks when they came up without buying Finances with party gold. I bought Protector of Life Amulet, Dark Veil, Bracers of the Wizard, and Bracers of Rough Landing (in addition to the usual stuff like Spell Pen Robe and Haste Wand) so party gold was tight.

There's unfortunately no reason to have a second strong army since you can just use that one to fend off attacking Demon armies and they're pretty weak. My lvl 7 Melee General in ch 3 doesn't have a heal yet, but his tent's pretty big.

Crusade feels too disconnected from the main game

Probably because it was implemented poorly, but idea-wise, ripping of HoMM was a good choice and fits the theme of your character being in charge of a military operation with a specific goal.

I don't think it's unsalvageable, but it would require a major overhaul to make it good and that doesn't seem to be a remote consideration for Owlcat's to-do list.

It wouldn't need to be that major. Just some playtesting to fix the vaporware and making the foes more varied (spell resistant stuff etc) along with stronger attacking armies so you'd need more than one good army of your own to cover the map. Which is just basic HoMM stuff. The relics (the main reward) could use another pass because most of them are junk with a few gems, likewise the items you can unlock.

It has a very good tutorial and a clear goal (unlike KM in P:K) so if people could get over the bad taste of P:K KM and actually dig into it it could be fine. Using idle companions as generals would tie things together better.

 

[Haplo]

Don't buy HKs (although if I'm not mistaken they've been buffed too).

But why?
They are typically the backbone of my army in later Act 2 and also first half of Act 3. Before the cavalery upgrade (light cavalery is pretty much useless, deals little damage and dies when the enemy looks their way), they are the most mobile unit, quite tanky and capable of dealing a little damage as well (frankly no units deal good damage before upgrades).

 

[Haplo]

Kingdom management had nice rewards (artisans, versus not so great relics), occasionally quests, and they took great care in writing down all different kind of resolutions based on the advisor you used, which I appreciated.

Sure Artisan equipment was great, and the variety was huge.

But about the relics being not so great... Grave Calling, Bane of Spirit, Devouring Lust, Clemency of Shadows, Death's Consonant and a few others would like to have a word with you.

 

[Parabalus]

Don't buy HKs (although if I'm not mistaken they've been buffed too).

But why?
They are typically the backbone of my army in later Act 2 and also first half of Act 3. Before the cavalery upgrade (light cavalery is pretty much useless, deals little damage and dies when the enemy looks their way), they are the most mobile unit, quite tanky and capable of dealing a little damage as well (frankly no units deal good damage before upgrades).

HKs were extremely useful, since you pewpew everything with magic, and just need units to tank.