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Pathfinder Pathfinder: Wrath of the Righteous - Game of the Year Edition

Desiderius

Found your egg, Robinett, you sneaky bastard
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Who said there's nothing else worth taking, I was just explaining to you how to do it, learn to read.
You did. If you're blowing four feats on a class that feat-starved you're saying that implicitly. Melee Cam is Weapon Focus into Fencing Grace into Outflank. Then Initimidating Hex to open up Shatter at 9. That would leave you at lvl 15 for Crane Style and 17 for Wing. Total theorycrafting masturbation. Her class has Weapon Enchanting and Fast Spell Progression. To make those relevant on higher difficulties requires some help, but they're really good if they get it. You've already got plenty of other tanking/meat-shield options.
 
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ga♥

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Who said there's nothing else worth taking, I was just explaining to you how to do it, learn to read.
You did. If you're blowing four feats on a class that feat-starved you're saying that implicitly.

Again learn to read, you asked how to go crane without picking a monk, I kindly explained to you how to do it.
Instead of being grateful you throw a fit. Not nice.
 

gurugeorge

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I just don't understand why owlcat hates armor so much. They keep armor drops exceedingly rare, they didn't implement any of the armor-related mythic abilities, they didn't implement fighter armor training feats. Hell they didn't even implement cavalier ignoring armor check penalties while mounted. What is the big idea?

Maybe there will be some place for heavy plate with some exceptional training, so that even in 50 pounds of steel a fighter still can dodge all attempts to touch him.

Obligatory thread-derailing vid showing the potential flexibility of plate armor :)

 

Desiderius

Found your egg, Robinett, you sneaky bastard
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BTW, they fixed Warden of Darkness:

Warden fixed.jpg

Now properly weighs 23 instead of 45 so usable by Daeran (w/ Tower Proficiency via Fighter Splash or just the Feat). Can just cast and Demoralize/Dazzle/Mystery abilities instead of fighting which he isn't very good at to obviate the malus. DR5/Good is very good in this setting as of course is the 8 Shield AC. Wend can probably power thru the -2 AB malus as well (Jav/Dart tank?) or a respecced Reg. Yet another weird way to go with Cam I guess.

As noted all of the above are high DEX companions. The Mithril helps there but probably not enough. TTT has Tower Specialization as a Feat but that ends up running in circles like Crane does.

On a different note, this is what your tank could be doing (Crane Cam could do this too I guess with far less damage):

Bit of Luck Crit fish Seelah.jpg

Bless Weapon + Bit of Luck + Keen Scimitar = 51% confirmed crit chance per swing.
 
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Well, if you are really interested, I can share my take on it. Which is not even "because frak you and your knights in shining armour".

IMHO it's because on Golarion touch attacks exist and work. It is like old Honkong kung-fu movies made true: there are combatants who can kill or seriously cripple an opponent by just making contact with any part of the opponent's body. No force applied. Like that super secret fantasy kung-fu strike that stops the opponent's heart or something.

Under such circumstances traditional Medieval amour would be less prevalent on the battlefield. Those who are to fight and win against mages and other opponents with touch attacks will have to be either mages themselves - or unarmoured or lightly armoured, very skilled, very nimble fighters. They will have to avoid touches and try to touch the opponents with their deadly attacks. No actual physical force, just choreography of dodges.

Maybe there will be some place for heavy plate with some exceptional training, so that even in 50 pounds of steel a fighter still can dodge all attempts to touch him. And the Church of Iomedae would send all high ranking paladins to learn wushu. But in general the battles will be very different from those on Earth.

Pathfinder has a lot of "fixes" to these issues, but they always end up as special class features rather than the system being overhauled. Fighters get to reduce the armor penalty, which is something that all classes should get (or armor penalties should just be reduced generally), because no real life armor inhibits your movement the way Pathfinder armor does. Tower Shield Specialist gets to use their shield bonus vs. touch attacks, which is something that makes sense as a general thing but makes no sense at all as a special class ability (how is a non-magical character somehow able to affect whether an enervation spell or w/e can pierce his shield?).

Also the idea that touch attacks automatically get through ALL armor bonuses feels like an unrealistic simplification. I'd compare them to muskets and rifles. Sure, they get through a lot of armor, but armor still helped against them historically and nowadays we have body armor with high levels of effectiveness vs. them. We'd expect fantasy settings to develop armor to do something. Surely if I somehow wrapped 10 feet thick steel all around my body a "touch" attack weapon striking me should somehow be dulled.

EDIT: Or perhaps the definition of touch attacks should itself be much more tightly constrained. Touch attacks that directly affect the soul or life force of the target or similar have a good case for completely ignoring armor. Touch attacks that are firing a bolt of fire at someone don't have a good argument for ignoring armor except that they "have to" for a stupid low BAB wizard to hit with them. It otherwise makes no sense, because swords enchanted with fire or ice or w/e damage don't automatically get to ignore armor. At most you could argue that there should be some kind of half-AP effect for these kinds of abilities.
 
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Desiderius

Found your egg, Robinett, you sneaky bastard
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unlooky.jpgTristianPureSkill.jpg

armor still helped against them historically
:hmmm:

I knew history books have gone of the rails but do they have Nabasu in them now too? Fighter's Armor Training is an accurate representation of the difference between the bespoke armors professional mercenaries used vs whatever could be mass-produced for the general soldiery who had more practice tilling fields or writing sermons than handling unwieldy suits of armor or dodging blows. Makes perfect sense. Maybe part of the specialization of the Tower Shield Specialist is how to polish or coat his shield to avoid Rays like a Stealth Bomber's surface diffracts radar.

Use your imagination. It's what it's for.
 
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I knew history books have gone of the rails but do they have Nabasu in them now too?

If a Nabasu appeared IRL I'm pretty sure a single redneck with an AR-15 would slaughter it.

Incidentally Pathfinder has some interesting firearms rules:

Advanced Firearms: Advanced firearms resolve their attacks against touch AC when the target is within the first five range increments, but this type of attack is not considered a touch attack for the purposes of feats such as Deadly Aim. At higher range increments, the attack resolves normally, including taking the normal cumulative –2 penalty for each full-range increment. Advanced firearms have a maximum range of 10 range increments.

So they agree that firearms *can* basically ignore armor in the same way that touch attacks work. Five range increments for a Rifle means targets 400 feet away. Getting shot is only 1d10 damage though, lmao.
 

gurugeorge

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I must admit I've never felt I really fully understood the rationale of "touch attacks" in terms of simulation or quasi-realism. So far as I understand it, they're something that requires contiguity from body to body (i.e. a bridging from body to body, either via a ray conceived of as a continuous beam of matter, or via hand touch). Is that right?

But then in terms of quasi-realism, the idea of a touch attack ignoring armor armor only really makes sense in some cases: e.g. heat (enemy is cooked) and/or electrical attacks (enemy is shocked through the armor), or maybe something like a fungal attack that spreads across the armor and gets in the cracks. A diseased touch, for example, should not affect armor at all (it would have to touch flesh). A corrosive touch might weaken armor, but it would still need to be followed up.

Is the abstraction then that, say, with a diseased touch, the toucher is touching the face, or touching flesh through a joint in the armor or something like that? But then that makes it less likely that a diseased or sickening ray would be accurate enough to do that. You can picture someone up close grabbing an exposed part of the body, but a ray would have to be super-accurate to do the same sort of thing. And then there's the problem that if we're taking it-has-to-be-flesh-touch seriously, light armor would grant less protection (less covering, more exposed flesh) in that sense. But also, the close-touching thing would require DEX and speed, whereas aren't touch attacks based on STR? (although I suppose that's conceivable if someone is super-strong, they could just force a touch on flesh, but then why aren't they just a warrior? why piss about with magic?). It's an autistic tangle that's similar to things like DEX being for bows, whereas even with a non-composite longbow you require big STR. It's all a bit unsatisfactory really from the point of view of simulation.

But I suppose it's the same as with all these things, you have to draw the line somewhere, simplify and even gerrymander to some extent, as the reality (mundane or magical-with-rules) would be kind of too complex and "lumpy" (some things way better than others) to be able to make it gamey enough to be fun. You have to have enough of a sense of realism to fool the hindbrain while engaged in the combat in the moment, but not so much realism that you're sidetracked into minutiae and get pulled out of immersion.
 

Serus

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Who said there's nothing else worth taking, I was just explaining to you how to do it, learn to read.
You did. If you're blowing four feats on a class that feat-starved you're saying that implicitly.

Again learn to read, you asked how to go crane without picking a monk, I kindly explained to you how to do it.
Instead of being grateful you throw a fit. Not nice.
Of curse he does, he is Desiderius. Don't joke with him and learn to respect.
 

Serus

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I knew history books have gone of the rails but do they have Nabasu in them now too?

If a Nabasu appeared IRL I'm pretty sure a single redneck with an AR-15 would slaughter it.

Incidentally Pathfinder has some interesting firearms rules:

Advanced Firearms: Advanced firearms resolve their attacks against touch AC when the target is within the first five range increments, but this type of attack is not considered a touch attack for the purposes of feats such as Deadly Aim. At higher range increments, the attack resolves normally, including taking the normal cumulative –2 penalty for each full-range increment. Advanced firearms have a maximum range of 10 range increments.

So they agree that firearms *can* basically ignore armor in the same way that touch attacks work. Five range increments for a Rifle means targets 400 feet away. Getting shot is only 1d10 damage though, lmao.
I don't know about Pathfinder and firearms but historically armour wasn't totally useless against pre-rifle firearms tough of limited effectiveness to the point of being finally almost completely abandoned in 17th century*. Just saying. It says "advanced" in your example though, whatever that means.

*Cavalry armour existed until 1st half of 19th century (like Napoleonic era cuirassers) but was effective only in melee afaik.
 
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I don't know about Pathfinder and firearms but historically armour wasn't totally useless against pre-rifle firearms tough of limited effectiveness to the point of being finally almost completely abandoned in 17th century*. Just saying. It says "advanced" in your example though, whatever that means.

*Cavalry armour existed until 1st half of 19th century (like Napoleonic era cuirassers) but was effective only in melee afaik.

Yeah, that's what I said in the previous post about armor still having some effectiveness against firearms. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proofing_(armour) was a thing even against bullets, hence the name bulletproof. I'd argue that most touch attacks should also be resisted by armor in some way.

Pathfinder uses "advanced" to basically mean "later", the distinction is between muzzle loading and breech loading. The game defines early firearms as only being touch attack if you are within one range increment of your weapon.
 

LannTheStupid

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I just don't understand why owlcat hates armor so much. They keep armor drops exceedingly rare, they didn't implement any of the armor-related mythic abilities, they didn't implement fighter armor training feats. Hell they didn't even implement cavalier ignoring armor check penalties while mounted. What is the big idea?

Maybe there will be some place for heavy plate with some exceptional training, so that even in 50 pounds of steel a fighter still can dodge all attempts to touch him.

Obligatory thread-derailing vid showing the potential flexibility of plate armor :)


Which is absolutely true, and I even saw at some point a person making somersault in plate armour. However, I have to ask: if you have to avoid being touched would you prefer this or something... lighter?
 

gurugeorge

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I just don't understand why owlcat hates armor so much. They keep armor drops exceedingly rare, they didn't implement any of the armor-related mythic abilities, they didn't implement fighter armor training feats. Hell they didn't even implement cavalier ignoring armor check penalties while mounted. What is the big idea?

Maybe there will be some place for heavy plate with some exceptional training, so that even in 50 pounds of steel a fighter still can dodge all attempts to touch him.

Obligatory thread-derailing vid showing the potential flexibility of plate armor :)


Which is absolutely true, and I even saw at some point a person making somersault in plate armour. However, I have to ask: if you have to avoid being touched would you prefer this or something... lighter?


I would say, re. a touch attack, if the idea is that the bad toucher (thanks Desiderius :) ) has to touch your skin at some point, you're better off with the full covering of plate - the lighter armors will tend to leave more of your body exposed.

But as I said in my last post, I've never been quite sure what the logic of the touch attack is, right down to the nitty gritty. Does it have to be contact with flesh, or can it be just contact with whatever covering that flesh has? If the latter, the types of attacks that would be effective would probably have to be more limited and subdivided in a more detailed way, than you get in these systems, the more the system prized simulation (e.g,. heat would be effective against plate and leather, but corrosive would weaken plate, but probably have no effect on leather).

But that would probably be too fussy for most gamers (though not all! :) ), so systems tend to gerrymander, so that the system looks realistic enough if you squint at it.
 
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Which is absolutely true, and I even saw at some point a person making somersault in plate armour. However, I have to ask: if you have to avoid being touched would you prefer this or something... lighter?

IRL, the best defense against being touched is a sword that can cut a limb off or end your life with a single strike. Otherwise if you're close to someone avoiding being touched is just literally fucking impossible without turning around and sprinting in the other direction, but touching would also be close to a death sentence for the toucher. Even if they got in close most medieval knights carried daggers specifically for use on grappling opponents and you'd be fucked by that in seconds. If you're giving up the combat space to get within grappling range then your ability to avoid getting stabbed in the eyes 5x/sec is also zero.
 

LannTheStupid

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Which is absolutely true, and I even saw at some point a person making somersault in plate armour. However, I have to ask: if you have to avoid being touched would you prefer this or something... lighter?

IRL, the best defense against being touched is a sword that can cut a limb off or end your life with a single strike. Otherwise if you're close to someone avoiding being touched is just literally fucking impossible without turning around and sprinting in the other direction, but touching would also be close to a death sentence for the toucher. Even if they got in close most medieval knights carried daggers specifically for use on grappling opponents and you'd be fucked by that in seconds. If you're giving up the combat space to get within grappling range then your ability to avoid getting stabbed in the eyes 5x/sec is also zero.
I fullheartedly agree. Which makes a one-on-one fight a dance where one tries to cut off the opponent's limbs and the other weaves his limbs to touch at least something. I do not believe that Shocking Grasp, f.e., can be delivered only through the hand.

Which brings up that stupid image of 2 "Chinese" "kung-fu" fighters in some old B-movie.
 

Yosharian

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This dude is ridiculous, this is just a starter quest to get Daeran!

His AB ain't as bad, he can't hit my boar, but after a while he just ignores it and goes after my archers, so I need to block him in at a doorway or something, I dunno.

Also, I noticed that there is a timer on one of the missions in Act 1. I'm presuming that Act 1 doesn't end when this mission finishes, so I can still do all these other missions that have fail warnings right?

Edit: oh my god apparently some of the quests are missable if you don't do them before the tavern quest. Jfc I guess I'm redoing the entire act
 
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Desiderius

Found your egg, Robinett, you sneaky bastard
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Insert Title Here Pathfinder: Wrath
Fun adventures in Unfair stats-land!

schir.jpg
Good Sleep target. Also only 5 HD so Cause Fear/Scare works if you can get by SR. Glitterdust bypasses it too. Tricky part is getting Mage down first. He can be tanked but his Bardiche will crit on you.
 

Desiderius

Found your egg, Robinett, you sneaky bastard
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This dude is ridiculous, this is just a starter quest to get Daeran!

His AB ain't as bad, he can't hit my boar, but after a while he just ignores it and goes after my archers, so I need to block him in at a doorway or something, I dunno.

Also, I noticed that there is a timer on one of the missions in Act 1. I'm presuming that Act 1 doesn't end when this mission finishes, so I can still do all these other missions that have fail warnings right?

Edit: oh my god apparently some of the quests are missable if you don't do them before the tavern quest. Jfc I guess I'm redoing the entire act
Is this the first time you’ve played Wrath?
 

Desiderius

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Which is absolutely true, and I even saw at some point a person making somersault in plate armour. However, I have to ask: if you have to avoid being touched would you prefer this or something... lighter?

IRL, the best defense against being touched is a sword that can cut a limb off or end your life with a single strike. Otherwise if you're close to someone avoiding being touched is just literally fucking impossible without turning around and sprinting in the other direction, but touching would also be close to a death sentence for the toucher. Even if they got in close most medieval knights carried daggers specifically for use on grappling opponents and you'd be fucked by that in seconds. If you're giving up the combat space to get within grappling range then your ability to avoid getting stabbed in the eyes 5x/sec is also zero.
I fullheartedly agree. Which makes a one-on-one fight a dance where one tries to cut off the opponent's limbs and the other weaves his limbs to touch at least something. I do not believe that Shocking Grasp, f.e., can be delivered only through the hand.

Which brings up that stupid image of 2 "Chinese" "kung-fu" fighters in some old B-movie.
Or just use Illusion Magic.
 

Syme

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I knew history books have gone of the rails but do they have Nabasu in them now too?

If a Nabasu appeared IRL I'm pretty sure a single redneck with an AR-15 would slaughter it.

Said redneck would have a really tough time dealing with DR10/cold iron imo. I don't see them winning before the Nabasu slaughters them in like a dozen different ways within seconds, or just simply disarms them from 700ft away via at-will telekinesis.
 
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Said redneck would have a really tough time dealing with DR10/cold iron imo. I don't see them winning before the Nabasu slaughters them in like a dozen different ways within seconds, or just simply disarms them from 700ft away via at-will telekinesis.

Telekinesis doesn't exist IRL. A gun doesn't deal damage that can be "resisted", it just kills the target.
 

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