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Pathfinder Pathfinder: Wrath of the Righteous - Game of the Year Edition

rojay

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Oct 23, 2015
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Said redneck would have a really tough time dealing with DR10/cold iron imo. I don't see them winning before the Nabasu slaughters them in like a dozen different ways within seconds, or just simply disarms them from 700ft away via at-will telekinesis.

Telekinesis doesn't exist IRL. A gun doesn't deal damage that can be "resisted", it just kills the target.
A gun doesn't kill anyone. A gun sends a small piece of dense metal at a very high speed where the barrel of the gun is pointed. Generally speaking.

But you folks do go on about how a redneck would fare against a Nabasu.
 

Desiderius

Found your egg, Robinett, you sneaky bastard
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Insert Title Here Pathfinder: Wrath
Said redneck would have a really tough time dealing with DR10/cold iron imo. I don't see them winning before the Nabasu slaughters them in like a dozen different ways within seconds, or just simply disarms them from 700ft away via at-will telekinesis.
We've survived the Sea Peoples, the Vikings, the Cherokee/Comanche, and now the Ashkenazi while all y'all lowland dwellers got yourselves raped, pillaged, scalped, and dispossessed. I think we can handle a Nabasu or two:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alvin_York

Besides when you're this ugly you don't have to worry much about gaze attax.
 

LannTheStupid

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Pathfinder: Wrath
Speaking of missing features: I really wish Nenio can scribe spells with variations. Don't know how it could have been implemented, though.
 

Desiderius

Found your egg, Robinett, you sneaky bastard
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Insert Title Here Pathfinder: Wrath
Now that they’ve overnerfed scribed DCs it seems like main use is learning new spells, buffs, and scribing meta spells. Anything with a save is tough to get there with.
 

ArchAngel

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I must admit I've never felt I really fully understood the rationale of "touch attacks" in terms of simulation or quasi-realism. So far as I understand it, they're something that requires contiguity from body to body (i.e. a bridging from body to body, either via a ray conceived of as a continuous beam of matter, or via hand touch). Is that right?

But then in terms of quasi-realism, the idea of a touch attack ignoring armor armor only really makes sense in some cases: e.g. heat (enemy is cooked) and/or electrical attacks (enemy is shocked through the armor), or maybe something like a fungal attack that spreads across the armor and gets in the cracks. A diseased touch, for example, should not affect armor at all (it would have to touch flesh). A corrosive touch might weaken armor, but it would still need to be followed up.

Is the abstraction then that, say, with a diseased touch, the toucher is touching the face, or touching flesh through a joint in the armor or something like that? But then that makes it less likely that a diseased or sickening ray would be accurate enough to do that. You can picture someone up close grabbing an exposed part of the body, but a ray would have to be super-accurate to do the same sort of thing. And then there's the problem that if we're taking it-has-to-be-flesh-touch seriously, light armor would grant less protection (less covering, more exposed flesh) in that sense. But also, the close-touching thing would require DEX and speed, whereas aren't touch attacks based on STR? (although I suppose that's conceivable if someone is super-strong, they could just force a touch on flesh, but then why aren't they just a warrior? why piss about with magic?). It's an autistic tangle that's similar to things like DEX being for bows, whereas even with a non-composite longbow you require big STR. It's all a bit unsatisfactory really from the point of view of simulation.

But I suppose it's the same as with all these things, you have to draw the line somewhere, simplify and even gerrymander to some extent, as the reality (mundane or magical-with-rules) would be kind of too complex and "lumpy" (some things way better than others) to be able to make it gamey enough to be fun. You have to have enough of a sense of realism to fool the hindbrain while engaged in the combat in the moment, but not so much realism that you're sidetracked into minutiae and get pulled out of immersion.
Because you are thinking of it as some kind of physical attack. You don't apply disease in a way that you pierce their skin that delivers a magical disease into their body. It just delivers magical energy that ignores non living barriers around your body and gets transferred into your body. Actually there are spells that do damage and apply effect and those are not touch attacks. I mean even spells like Mage Armor which are pure force don't stop touch attacks. Spell energy just goes through them and still affects the target.
Also you should not imagine it as some kind of tiny pin point attack. Something like Acid Arrow that is actually not magical energy can be a lot of materials that splashes all over and then starts seeping into any cracks (which results as damage over time).
 

proxon

Educated
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Aug 27, 2014
Messages
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Just finished Nocticula fight on unfair. Kind of sucky encounter design, but i don't know what else can they do with all these demigod fights and not turn them in some mmorpg shitfest.

At least you can finish the fight, unllike that Bamphomet fucker. I must have realoaded dozens of times and never managed to finish him in two turns. I guess the only reliable way to kill him is caster mc and Weird.

Here are the pics, kill log and Seductive Presence dc

 
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Because you are thinking of it as some kind of physical attack. You don't apply disease in a way that you pierce their skin that delivers a magical disease into their body. It just delivers magical energy that ignores non living barriers around your body and gets transferred into your body. Actually there are spells that do damage and apply effect and those are not touch attacks. I mean even spells like Mage Armor which are pure force don't stop touch attacks. Spell energy just goes through them and still affects the target.
Also you should not imagine it as some kind of tiny pin point attack. Something like Acid Arrow that is actually not magical energy can be a lot of materials that splashes all over and then starts seeping into any cracks (which results as damage over time).

I agree in the case of some of these. Things like Inflict Wounds are literally just channeling negative energy into something. There's no indication that plate armor is stopping that. On the other hand, Acid Arrow sure seems like it'd hurt a hell of a lot more if it hits me while I'm completely naked and covers 2/3rds of my body compared to slowly seeping through a few armor cracks over time to contact a fraction of my skin. And remember that armor also involves a lot of padding beneath it so even what little Acid makes it through the cracks in the plates is going to be significantly slowed and diluted by that. It's not going to be acid proof in the same way a hazmat suit is but for a one-off attack its gotta be like 95% effective at least. Getting a rough burn on a few places that take a few weeks to heal naturally vs. half the flesh on your body being melted off kind of difference.

And again, we have enchanted swords everywhere that deal all kinds of acid or fire or cold damage. They don't automatically get to ignore 100% of armor.
 
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LannTheStupid

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Pathfinder: Wrath
Now that they’ve overnerfed scribed DCs it seems like main use is learning new spells, buffs, and scribing meta spells. Anything with a save is tough to get there with.
It's very convenient to Heighten and Persist the spells from Nenio opposition schools. For example, Heightened Persistent Blindness works quite well for almost everyone.
 

Desiderius

Found your egg, Robinett, you sneaky bastard
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Insert Title Here Pathfinder: Wrath
Now that they’ve overnerfed scribed DCs it seems like main use is learning new spells, buffs, and scribing meta spells. Anything with a save is tough to get there with.
It's very convenient to Heighten and Persist the spells from Nenio opposition schools. For example, Heightened Persistent Blindness works quite well for almost everyone.
Caster stat/items/focus feats etc was originally baked in as well, along with spell level = CL which made them too high. In correcting the latter they evidently also removed the former.

Blindness doesn't even bypass SR lol.

Because you are thinking of it as some kind of physical attack. You don't apply disease in a way that you pierce their skin that delivers a magical disease into their body. It just delivers magical energy that ignores non living barriers around your body and gets transferred into your body. Actually there are spells that do damage and apply effect and those are not touch attacks. I mean even spells like Mage Armor which are pure force don't stop touch attacks. Spell energy just goes through them and still affects the target.
Also you should not imagine it as some kind of tiny pin point attack. Something like Acid Arrow that is actually not magical energy can be a lot of materials that splashes all over and then starts seeping into any cracks (which results as damage over time).

I agree in the case of some of these. Things like Inflict Wounds are literally just channeling negative energy into something. There's no indication that plate armor is stopping that. On the other hand, Acid Arrow sure seems like it'd hurt a hell of a lot more if it hits me while I'm completely naked and covers 2/3rds of my body compared to slowly seeping through a few armor cracks over time to contact a fraction of my skin. And remember that armor also involves a lot of padding beneath it so even what little Acid makes it through the cracks in the plates is going to be significantly slowed and diluted by that. It's not going to be acid proof in the same way a hazmat suit is but for a one-off attack its gotta be like 95% effective at least. Getting a rough burn on a few places that take a few weeks to heal naturally vs. half the flesh on your body being melted off kind of difference.

And again, we have enchanted swords everywhere that deal all kinds of acid or fire or cold damage. They don't automatically get to ignore 100% of armor.
That last point is just a limitation of the system but could probably be fixed easily enough since there's a mythic that does damage on a miss and against Swarms the Fire/Acid gets thru while the weapon doesn't, which is a good illustration of ArchAngel's point. Seems like you're straining at gnats here yourself.
 

ArchAngel

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Because you are thinking of it as some kind of physical attack. You don't apply disease in a way that you pierce their skin that delivers a magical disease into their body. It just delivers magical energy that ignores non living barriers around your body and gets transferred into your body. Actually there are spells that do damage and apply effect and those are not touch attacks. I mean even spells like Mage Armor which are pure force don't stop touch attacks. Spell energy just goes through them and still affects the target.
Also you should not imagine it as some kind of tiny pin point attack. Something like Acid Arrow that is actually not magical energy can be a lot of materials that splashes all over and then starts seeping into any cracks (which results as damage over time).

I agree in the case of some of these. Things like Inflict Wounds are literally just channeling negative energy into something. There's no indication that plate armor is stopping that. On the other hand, Acid Arrow sure seems like it'd hurt a hell of a lot more if it hits me while I'm completely naked and covers 2/3rds of my body compared to slowly seeping through a few armor cracks over time to contact a fraction of my skin. And remember that armor also involves a lot of padding beneath it so even what little Acid makes it through the cracks in the plates is going to be significantly slowed and diluted by that. It's not going to be acid proof in the same way a hazmat suit is but for a one-off attack its gotta be like 95% effective at least. Getting a rough burn on a few places that take a few weeks to heal naturally vs. half the flesh on your body being melted off kind of difference.

And again, we have enchanted swords everywhere that deal all kinds of acid or fire or cold damage. They don't automatically get to ignore 100% of armor.
Well each case can be a bit different and it is hard to have same mechanics for everything but if every 5 spells had their own mechanics it would not be possible to play this in PnP due to too many rules (and even this version of Pathfinder already has too many rules). As a result most things are kept vague and it is up to each DM and players to give plausible explanations for things. As a past DM your specific example I would explain as that acid not all being active at same time. It activates after a short delay due to how it is made.
Also all players hate stuff destroying their stuff, if we went your realistic route a simple lvl 2 spell would be destroying a lot of items players wear and use resulting in pissed off players.
 

Yosharian

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Absolutely addicted to this ATM. Just about to start the Tavern Defense.

I think I have perfected my MC build. Just sad that Outflank comes so late, but it's fine I suppose.
 

Yosharian

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Haplo I am once again calling upon you to discuss what the best weapons in the game are.

Let's get the obvious ones out of the way:

Finnean
Grave Singer
Peacemaker
Hasty Eradicator (offhand)
Wide Sweep
Faith Bearer (Legend)
Killing Pace
Jinx
Rumbling Falchion (CMB builds)
Impending Demise (TWF monk)
Death's Consonant
Battle-Forged Warhammer (1H/2H flex)
Holemaker (TWF + piercing weapon)
Mutilated Angel

Thoughts?

Edit: updated list
 
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Haplo

Prophet
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6,559
Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire
Haplo I am once again calling upon you to discuss what the best weapons in the game are.

Let's get the obvious ones out of the way:

Finnean
Grave Singer
Peacemaker
Hasty Eradicator (offhand)
Wide Sweep
Faith Bearer (Legend)
Killing Pace
Jinx
Rumbling Falchion (CMB builds)

Thoughts?

Hmm, yeah, you seem to have the bases covered.

Note Finnean after the EE update only gets Brilliant Energy in Act 5, so its no longer as good for some of the tougher encounters (like Playful Darkness or Act 4 mini-bosses and bosses).
Also Rumbling Falchion... I guess its good for CMB builds but... I would consider them niche in this game and not really power gaming options in the first place (pets can easly replace the characters here, with less opportunity cost).

I'm also rather fond of the Battle-Forged warhammer. Not the strongest but very solid. Would be nice for a magus or other characters who would like to switch between one-handed and two-handed stance.

Then there's Death's Consonant (mainly bardiche, but the heavy pick also exists). Quite niche, but noteworthy - mainly as a side arm for some BFT or a weapon for some gishes, but SS and legend builds with it are also possible.

Daggers are somewhat noteworthy, if only for the sheer abundance of them. Retriever's Claw, Cruel Fate, Merciful Fate are all solid. Angels also enjoy the early Holy dagger - good if you get it in Act 3.

Guess Translucent Needle rapier is also good.

Sais are a solid option with monk dips. Notably Impending Demise, but Electric Rose could be nice also.

Edit: Also the last DLC has some cool stuff, apparently. Yet another OP greataxe, glaive, tank Battleaxe & shield combo. There's also a vorpal longsword, but apprently its nerfed in the integrated version of the DLC.
 
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Haplo

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Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire
Yeah mutilated angel, I'll add that to the list

I don't see why splintershred is OP
Oversized is nice. Can get good dice. But also something about its thrown enchantment always active and stacking with base enchantment? Not sure.
 

Yosharian

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Yeah mutilated angel, I'll add that to the list

I don't see why splintershred is OP
Oversized is nice. Can get good dice. But also something about its thrown enchantment always active and stacking with base enchantment? Not sure.

Oversized?

The wielder of this +5 adamantine greataxe can use a standard action to make a melee attack against any enemy with a 30 feet range. If that attack hits, the target must make a successful Fortitude save (DC 30) or become prone.
 

FreeKaner

Prophet of the Dumpsterfire
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Putting my fearsome leader cavalier to test, I am at wintersun right now at level 11 and I basically attack every flatfooted, since I have +35 to intimidate. Even Derakni devastator and morveg are perma shaken, basically anything that can be shaken is shaken since charge bonus means the first hit nearly always hits.
 

Yosharian

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Putting my fearsome leader cavalier to test, I am at wintersun right now at level 11 and I basically attack every flatfooted, since I have +35 to intimidate. Even Derakni devastator and morveg are perma shaken, basically anything that can be shaken is shaken since charge bonus means the first hit nearly always hits.
Cornugon Smash?
 

FreeKaner

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Putting my fearsome leader cavalier to test, I am at wintersun right now at level 11 and I basically attack every flatfooted, since I have +35 to intimidate. Even Derakni devastator and morveg are perma shaken, basically anything that can be shaken is shaken since charge bonus means the first hit nearly always hits.
Cornugon Smash?

Yes, it is a bit feat heavy but works decently. I think only thing stopping it from being a really good build is the fact there are a lot of enemies immune to shaken in this game. Also with might charge, shatter defenses means my CMB hits enemy flat-footed AC on charge as well, which means trips happen often. I am trying to leverage that with demon path as well, I will get aspects of schir for charge damage, kalavakus for bonus to CMB and extra attack on trip and incubus for persuasion and damage bonus. Using demonic charge to position for charges.
 
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Yosharian

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Putting my fearsome leader cavalier to test, I am at wintersun right now at level 11 and I basically attack every flatfooted, since I have +35 to intimidate. Even Derakni devastator and morveg are perma shaken, basically anything that can be shaken is shaken since charge bonus means the first hit nearly always hits.
Cornugon Smash?

Yes, it is a bit feat heavy but works decently. I think only thing stopping it from being a really good build is the fact there are a lot of enemies immune to shaken in this game.
My issue with CS is that it becomes completely irrelevant the moment your BFT hits L16

And it's also something your bard/skald can do if you really need it

And as you said it's extremely feat heavy so it's usually at the cost of something else you could have taken that's just as good

Did you ever consider dipping Bloodrager?

Frightful Charger
At 1st level, when you hit a creature with a charge attack, that creature becomes shaken for a number of rounds equal to 1/2 your bloodrager level (minimum 1). This effect does not cause an existing shaken or frightened condition (from this ability or another source) to turn into frightened or panicked. This is a mind-affecting fear effect.
 

FreeKaner

Prophet of the Dumpsterfire
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My issue with CS is that it becomes completely irrelevant the moment your BFT hits L16

And it's also something your bard/skald can do if you really need it

And as you said it's extremely feat heavy so it's usually at the cost of something else you could have taken that's just as good

Did you ever consider dipping Bloodrager?

As per this part of the post:

Also with might charge, shatter defenses means my CMB hits enemy flat-footed AC on charge as well, which means trips happen often. I am trying to leverage that with demon path as well, I will get aspects of schir for charge damage, kalavakus for bonus to CMB and extra attack on trip and incubus for persuasion and damage bonus. Using demonic charge to position for charges.

I think this is what really enables cornugon smash to not be obsolete easily, plus I don't have a bard/skald because I didn't make any of the companions bard or skald.
 

Yosharian

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You don't need CS when your BFT hits L16 and can give you Frightful Aspect

Using DC to position for charges - does that actually work?
 

FreeKaner

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You don't need CS when your BFT hits L16 and can give you Frightful Aspect

Using DC to position for charges - does that actually work?

They are both move action, so you need charge away and position or do it after standard attack. It still deals damage on charge away, and occasionally you can use it to just AoO casters/archers but yes I think it works well. Does frightful aspect not make you larger thus preventing you from mounting? Plus I thought it needed spell pen and will save, vs. intimidate which can be scaled way more.
 

Desiderius

Found your egg, Robinett, you sneaky bastard
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Insert Title Here Pathfinder: Wrath
I’ve been using Cornugan on Reg and it’s good. Though on Hard/Unfair 35 won’t be enough.

Don’t forget your Seashell and Food skill boosts.
 

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