Pathfinder Pathfinder: Wrath of the Righteous - Game of the Year Edition

[Yosharian]

Holemaker is much more interesting than anything else, but still, it's not exactly insane damage is it. And I just don't see how this guy is staying alive in melee unless he's mounted.

In my experience Reach and Last Stand is enough. It's not like mounts add that much survivability anyway.

You seem to have no idea...

Yeah I can't say I agree with your statement there Grunk, mounts are fucking OP

 

[Yosharian]

Holemaker is much more interesting than anything else, but still, it's not exactly insane damage is it.

+50% damage not good enough for you?

Of course need to trigger it first... but 3 chances to trigger are better then 1.

Hmm ok you got me curious. Where do you get Holemaker, again?

Edit: hmm apparently it's in Act 4. I guess it could work, shield bash TWF is so feat intensive though

Edit2: nah this is shit. Bites/Gores count as multiple damage types and thus... wait for it... benefit from NOTHING when vulnerability to piercing is applied.

 

[Grunker]

Holemaker is much more interesting than anything else, but still, it's not exactly insane damage is it. And I just don't see how this guy is staying alive in melee unless he's mounted.

In my experience Reach and Last Stand is enough. It's not like mounts add that much survivability anyway.

You seem to have no idea...

Holemaker is much more interesting than anything else, but still, it's not exactly insane damage is it. And I just don't see how this guy is staying alive in melee unless he's mounted.

In my experience Reach and Last Stand is enough. It's not like mounts add that much survivability anyway.

You seem to have no idea...

Yeah I can't say I agree with your statement there Grunk, mounts are fucking OP

Educate me, senpais

 

[Desiderius]

Let's be honest people complained about it because they didn't know how to deal with regeneration.

It was quite hard to deal with regeneration when most of the things that were supposed to deal with it didn't work and the only thing that actually stopped it were adamantite weapons, of which you would be lucky to have found 2 by that point, and then had the random foresight to bring them along.

And at the time most people haven't yet figured out/come to terms with how ridiculously overbloated AC would get in the game, so no one was thinking of building daisy chains of half a dozen feats just to be able to hit things. Before blackwater, the standard D&D vidya gnome plan of wear good gear, cast some basic buffs plus haste worked on everything. And going there early in the chapter was the wall where the full extent of owlscat's autism dawned on you.

That is not mentioning that the place was indeed nerfed since launch.

When MWG stacked that also turned off the regen.

 

[Desiderius]

It was quite hard to deal with regeneration when most of the things that were supposed to deal with it didn't work

There were 2 reliable sources of lightning in that dungeon and they are mostly near entrance.

The mobs were bugged to be Lightning Immune.

 

[Yosharian]

A mount can quite easily get 80+ AC lategame and it's possible to boost their saves significantly. And they have automatic Evasion

 

[Haplo]

Edit2: nah this is shit. Bites/Gores count as multiple damage types and thus... wait for it... benefit from NOTHING when vulnerability to piercing is applied.

Owlcat!

 

[IllusiveBrian]

Edit2: nah this is shit. Bites/Gores count as multiple damage types and thus... wait for it... benefit from NOTHING when vulnerability to piercing is applied.

Well yeah, piercing and piercing/slashing/blunt are two different types of damage. You gotta think like a computer man.

 

[mediocrepoet]

Sooo some conclusions from initial testing:

1. MW 9 is not worth it. You don't get to benefit from Flurry twice. MW 7 might be viable...

I'm kind of surprised you expected this one to work that way. Flurry has always been +1 main hand attack like haste. So you'd get the benefits of a second weapon training... when you put that other weapon type in your main hand.

I say kind of because you note some other weird beneficial bugs, so it's not out of the realm of possibility that you would've been right.

 

[Yosharian]

Edit2: nah this is shit. Bites/Gores count as multiple damage types and thus... wait for it... benefit from NOTHING when vulnerability to piercing is applied.

Well yeah, piercing and piercing/slashing/blunt are two different types of damage. You gotta think like a computer man.

 

[Yosharian]

I solved this puzzle according to the wiki (don't laugh, I fucking hate these puzzles) but nothing happens? Am I missing something?

Spoiler

Edit: DUH I just saw the mistake. Godammit I HATE THESE THINGS.

Can you get to Place of Execution in Act 3?

 

[Yosharian]

It's jarring how great this game is when its firing on all cylinders, and how fucking boring/tedious it is when doing filler content.

 

[Desiderius]

It's jarring how great this game is when its firing on all cylinders, and how fucking boring/tedious it is when doing filler content.

Different teams.

 

[Grunker]

A mount can quite easily get 80+ AC lategame and it's possible to boost their saves significantly. And they have automatic Evasion

(and Haplo)

80AC will still be oneshot by the first nat 20 on Unfair due to double damage (and there will be multiple of these each enemy turn due to the high number of attacks). You really can't be in melee without Last Stand in my experience. Do you have double damage turned off, or is your experience different? I have a feeling it's either that or your builds might just be way better than mine and you kill stuff fast enough you don't get one-popped as often. Or maybe your movement is better than mine?

I'm definitely playing this game again, and when I do it'll either be with really shitty builds on Core or just on Unfair without double damage.

 

[mediocrepoet]

A mount can quite easily get 80+ AC lategame and it's possible to boost their saves significantly. And they have automatic Evasion

(and Haplo)

80AC will still be oneshot by the first nat 20 on Unfair due to double damage (and there will be multiple of these each enemy turn due to the high number of attacks). You really can't be in melee without Last Stand in my experience. Do you have double damage turned off, or is your experience different? I have a feeling it's either that or your builds are just way better than mine and you kill stuff fast enough you don't get one-popped as often.

I'm definetely playing this game again, and when I do it'll either be with really shitty builds on Core or just on Unfair without double damage.

Well, if you are only worried about getting hit on high rolls, chances are you're not getting hit that often and the mounted combat feat can possibly negate up to one hit per round which would significantly boost survivability.

 

[Grunker]

A mount can quite easily get 80+ AC lategame and it's possible to boost their saves significantly. And they have automatic Evasion

(and Haplo)

80AC will still be oneshot by the first nat 20 on Unfair due to double damage (and there will be multiple of these each enemy turn due to the high number of attacks). You really can't be in melee without Last Stand in my experience. Do you have double damage turned off, or is your experience different? I have a feeling it's either that or your builds are just way better than mine and you kill stuff fast enough you don't get one-popped as often.

I'm definetely playing this game again, and when I do it'll either be with really shitty builds on Core or just on Unfair without double damage.

Well, if you are only worried about getting hit on high rolls, chances are you're not getting hit that often

Not the case. There will be multiple enemy nat 20s enemy turn in most relevant fights.

and the mounted combat feat can possibly negate up to one hit per round which would significantly boost survivability.

I think Mounted Combat is bugged. I see it work very rarely.

 

[Desiderius]

What’s your Mobility?

Works fine here, but only once per round. Staggered opponent only attacks once per round so you’re good.

If you’re getting attacked that much you’ve got a lot of room to improve not just on AC or rocket tag but simply using things like Difficult Terrain and Stagger/Entangle.

 

[Grunker]

What’s your Mobility?

34 and 40 on the relevant characters.

If you’re getting attacked that much you’ve got a lot of room to improve

Almost certainly. Hence:

your builds might be way better

maybe your movement is better than mine

 

[Desiderius]

That isn't high enough.



This is lvl 14/M4. Unfair (one-shots can happen but aren't the rule).

I have no builds. The above is a lvl 14 Vanguard Aeon Riding (lvl 11) Bismuth. TTT means I have to burn 3 Feats just to get what vanilla gets for free (Full attacks with Mount move) at 14 ranks in Mobility. One of them does let you get two Mobility checks per round.

Player movement isn't nearly as important as controlling enemy movement. Of course corpses get no moves at all. Nenio spamming Phantasmal Web is my favorite but there are a lot of options (TTT codes the Nauseate as correctly non-Poison but even the enemy only Web can be a big help).

This all applies to non-bosses. Bosses take a different approach as do unique enemy types, but those tend to come with specific weaknesses.

 

[Haplo]

What’s your Mobility?

34 and 40 on the relevant characters.

Like Desiderius wrote, this ain't anywhere close to enough to avoid hits on Unfair. It can still help avoid enemy spell effects, though.
I guess its difficult to have enough Mobility to avoid attacks on Unfair, that needs really dedicated builds (like Mobility Tricksters - but they use different mechanics).

Still, buff the mount so it has good AC, Concealment, try not to end your turns next to breathing and uncontrolled enemies... that'll go a long way.

I play rocket tag TBH. My characters don't have high AC... and mounts have only somewhat higher. But I try not to let the enemies live long enough to hurt me. Enemies generally don't survive my charges (when I can make them). CC helps too.

It's risky, I'll admit it. Sometimes I wonder if Unfair is suitable for me. But so far, I manage.

 

[Yosharian]

A mount can quite easily get 80+ AC lategame and it's possible to boost their saves significantly. And they have automatic Evasion

(and Haplo)

80AC will still be oneshot by the first nat 20 on Unfair due to double damage (and there will be multiple of these each enemy turn due to the high number of attacks). You really can't be in melee without Last Stand in my experience. Do you have double damage turned off, or is your experience different? I have a feeling it's either that or your builds might just be way better than mine and you kill stuff fast enough you don't get one-popped as often. Or maybe your movement is better than mine?

I'm definitely playing this game again, and when I do it'll either be with really shitty builds on Core or just on Unfair without double damage.

1. Who plays with 2x damage on, that shit is fucking retarded.
2. Protective Luck makes getting Nat 20'd extremely unlikely.

Unfair is a retarded difficulty level because the extra stats that enemies get makes it very challenging and an interesting puzzle to solve for optimizers, and then the 2x damage just comes along and takes a giant diarrhea shit all over that.

 

[Grunker]

What’s your Mobility?

34 and 40 on the relevant characters.

I play rocket tag TBH. My characters don't have high AC... and mounts have only somewhat higher. But I try not to let the enemies live long enough to hurt me. Enemies generally don't survive my charges (when I can make them). CC helps too.

But that's exactly my point, as you'll recall:

You really can't be in melee without Last Stand in my experience.

I do the same as you appear to: either I kill the enemy, or I do not end my turn in a way where it's going to attack me (unless relying on a Last Stand turn).

Which was the starting point of this discussion: that Yosharian doubted how his character could stay alive without a mount, and me replying that my own character with the same limitation did so with Reach and Last Stand. Because again - if he's hitting something it has to die anyway, so mounted or not really makes no difference (except for the fact that mounted characters have a WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAY easier time actually getting to full attack, which is where the true OPness of mounts is in my opinon, NOT in their defenses which, again, are dubious at best).

So unless I'm missing something, we agree: you have to kill stuff on unfair, you can't stay next to stuff (generally), and the reason mounts are good are primarily because they allow full attacks after moves (i.e. you can kill shit) whereas non-mounted characters have to rely on enemies moving to them, very long 5-foot-steps or similar things. Add Pounce to the mix and the point only becomes clearer: you zoom from enemy to enemy killing them outright.

This is also why my Wenduag is a bad build; without the ability to one-shot, it doesn't matter that her defenses are way better than the rest of the squad.

 

[Yosharian]

A mount can quite easily get 80+ AC lategame and it's possible to boost their saves significantly. And they have automatic Evasion

(and Haplo)

80AC will still be oneshot by the first nat 20 on Unfair due to double damage (and there will be multiple of these each enemy turn due to the high number of attacks). You really can't be in melee without Last Stand in my experience. Do you have double damage turned off, or is your experience different? I have a feeling it's either that or your builds are just way better than mine and you kill stuff fast enough you don't get one-popped as often.

I'm definetely playing this game again, and when I do it'll either be with really shitty builds on Core or just on Unfair without double damage.

Well, if you are only worried about getting hit on high rolls, chances are you're not getting hit that often

Not the case. There will be multiple enemy nat 20s enemy turn in most relevant fights.

and the mounted combat feat can possibly negate up to one hit per round which would significantly boost survivability.

I think Mounted Combat is bugged. I see it work very rarely.

Mounted Combat is fucking useless on Unfair. There is no way you are hitting those Mobility DCs even on a character with absurd bonuses. You would have to have 50 DEX with Skill Focus and +15 Competence and a ton of other bonuses in order to make it useful and by that point its irrelevant because the game is virtually over.

I respecced both of my mounted builds to only pick up Indomitable Mount which is absolutely fire, awesome feat.

 

[Grunker]

A mount can quite easily get 80+ AC lategame and it's possible to boost their saves significantly. And they have automatic Evasion

(and Haplo)

80AC will still be oneshot by the first nat 20 on Unfair due to double damage (and there will be multiple of these each enemy turn due to the high number of attacks). You really can't be in melee without Last Stand in my experience. Do you have double damage turned off, or is your experience different? I have a feeling it's either that or your builds might just be way better than mine and you kill stuff fast enough you don't get one-popped as often. Or maybe your movement is better than mine?

I'm definitely playing this game again, and when I do it'll either be with really shitty builds on Core or just on Unfair without double damage.

1. Who plays with 2x damage on, that shit is fucking retarded.
2. Protective Luck makes getting Nat 20'd extremely unlikely.

Unfair is a retarded difficulty level because the extra stats that enemies get makes it very challenging and an interesting puzzle to solve for optimizers, and then the 2x damage just comes along and takes a giant diarrhea shit all over that.

1. You know I do, I've stated this many times

2. Actually not really in my experience. I have protective hex up on my highest AC pet more or less 24-7, and odds are its getting hit by something at some point anyway, killing it outright (due to double damage)

Unfair is a retarded difficulty level because the extra stats that enemies get makes it very challenging and an interesting puzzle to solve for optimizers, and then the 2x damage just comes along and takes a giant diarrhea shit all over that.

I agree, I'll be turning it off if I do more playthroughs on Unfair. It's a fairly poor difficulty choice. But I'm kind of in for a penny, in for a pound on my current playthrough.

 

[Yosharian]

Speaking of Unfair, just killed this bastard. Tough fight. He kept ignoring my summons and killing my mounts. Without Lunge and selective Sirocco, I wouldn't have won this fight.

Spoiler