Pathfinder Pathfinder: Wrath of the Righteous - Game of the Year Edition

[Yosharian]

After some testing, it seems the actual bug is that stacking nat attacks is no longer possible period. You can get two claws, one bite, one gore, that's it.

Wow. Huge nerf for martial demon.

 

[Grunker]

After some testing, it seems the actual bug is that stacking nat attacks is no longer possible period. You can get two claws, one bite, one gore, that's it.

Wow. Huge nerf for martial demon.

Nerf implies intention. Since it's not documented in 2.0.6 while these nat attack changes are:

Animal companions sometimes lost their natural attacks (with hoofs, horns, claws etc.) – fixed;

Weapon Finesse now works with all natural weapons.

I fully expect this to a bug. Might be the result of the other "fixes". Such a big change, if intended, would probably be documented.

 

[Grunker]

The Camelia hard lock in Drezen is apparantly also still a thing even for people with the hotfix.

 

[mediocrepoet]

After some testing, it seems the actual bug is that stacking nat attacks is no longer possible period. You can get two claws, one bite, one gore, that's it.

Wow. Huge nerf for martial demon.

Nerf implies intention. Since it's not documented in 2.0.6 while these nat attack changes are:

Animal companions sometimes lost their natural attacks (with hoofs, horns, claws etc.) – fixed;

Weapon Finesse now works with all natural weapons.

I fully expect this to a bug. Might be the result of the other "fixes". Such a big change, if intended, would probably be documented.

I'm not sure about that. As far as I know, RAW (tabletop) was that you couldn't bite stack at all and that was a bug in Owlcat's implementation. The patch notes sound to me like what they fixed is that sometimes mounts lost all natural attacks, not things dropping off from stacking. Possibly these issues were related?

The one thing I find weird is that in turn based mode, if I command the mount, I can get it to full-attack and the rider to attack (don't have iteratives yet, so not sure if that's a full attack or not - I think it is). If I command the rider, the rider will (full?) attack and the mount will only attack once even if it has several attacks and would've used them all had I commanded it directly.

 

[Grunker]

After some testing, it seems the actual bug is that stacking nat attacks is no longer possible period. You can get two claws, one bite, one gore, that's it.

Wow. Huge nerf for martial demon.

Nerf implies intention. Since it's not documented in 2.0.6 while these nat attack changes are:

Animal companions sometimes lost their natural attacks (with hoofs, horns, claws etc.) – fixed;

Weapon Finesse now works with all natural weapons.

I fully expect this to a bug. Might be the result of the other "fixes". Such a big change, if intended, would probably be documented.

I'm not sure about that. As far as I know, RAW (tabletop) was that you couldn't bite stack at all and that was a bug in Owlcat's implementation. The patch notes sound to me like what they fixed is that sometimes mounts lost all natural attacks, not things dropping off from stacking. Possibly these issues were related?

The one thing I find weird is that in turn based mode, if I command the mount, I can get it to full-attack and the rider to attack (don't have iteratives yet, so not sure if that's a full attack or not - I think it is). If I command the rider, the rider will (full?) attack and the mount will only attack once even if it has several attacks and would've used them all had I commanded it directly.

Again, it's a huge change, so if it's intended, why wouldn't it be documented? Especially when they did document MUCH smaller nat attack changes

The change is definitely ALOT closer to RAW (where you can only stack bites and gores if you have multiple appendages for these attacks), though, so that's a point towards it being intended, but man that's a weird change to make undocumented after your engine has been released for umpteen year.

 

[mediocrepoet]

Again, it's a huge change, so if it's intended, why wouldn't it be documented? Especially when they did document MUCH smaller nat attack changes

The change is definitely ALOT closer to RAW (where you can only stack bites and gores if you have multiple appendages for these attacks), though, so that's a point towards it being intended, but man that's a weird change to make undocumented after your engine has been released for umpteen year.

Look, I love the Owlcats and their derp-ass games. But uh... with their patch cycles, I'm not convinced that internal or external documentation/communication is their strong suit. I wouldn't put money down that it was intended, but it wouldn't surprise me either.

I get where you're coming from though and it'd be good if they'd communicate things that can massively change/ruin people's builds. But see above.

 

[Grunker]

Imagine some end user without the respec mod having such a change hit him lol. Bricked save right there. At least I can just make another character in the same save if it really does come to that.

 

[mediocrepoet]

Probably they were happy with the occasional extra bites but then they wandered in here and saw Haplo's screenshots and Yosharian's theory crafting with like 30 bite pets and stuff and were like: We need to stop this!

 

[Delterius]

Imagine some end user without the respec mod having such a change hit him lol. Bricked save right there. At least I can just make another character in the same save if it really does come to that.

I remember people losing their minds after slight nerfs in the pillars patch cycle. If I lost 9 attacks per round due to a balance change I'd nuke Cyprus.

 

[Average Manatee]

They completely gutted elemental barrage builds without documentation in patch notes, so this happening again doesn't surprise me. There were far more characters using elemental barrage compared to stacking natural attacks. Elemental Barrage was a homebrew ability too, so there was no reason to need to "fix" it to work according to PnP when they could have kept it and balanced in for melee builds rather than make it useless. Clearly Owlcat doesn't care much if they are killing your save in an update.

 

[Grunker]

Imagine some end user without the respec mod having such a change hit him lol. Bricked save right there. At least I can just make another character in the same save if it really does come to that.

I remember people losing their minds after slight nerfs in the pillars patch cycle. If I lost 9 attacks per round due to a balance change I'd nuke Cyprus.

I've decided to invade Norway, but the sentiment is similar

 

[Haplo]

They completely gutted elemental barrage builds without documentation in patch notes, so this happening again doesn't surprise me. There were far more characters using elemental barrage compared to stacking natural attacks. Elemental Barrage was a homebrew ability too, so there was no reason to need to "fix" it to work according to PnP when they could have kept it and balanced in for melee builds rather than make it useless. Clearly Owlcat doesn't care much if they are killing your save in an update.

Exactly, there's already precedent for undocumented changes of such caliber.

 

[Yosharian]

They completely gutted elemental barrage builds without documentation in patch notes, so this happening again doesn't surprise me. There were far more characters using elemental barrage compared to stacking natural attacks. Elemental Barrage was a homebrew ability too, so there was no reason to need to "fix" it to work according to PnP when they could have kept it and balanced in for melee builds rather than make it useless. Clearly Owlcat doesn't care much if they are killing your save in an update.

Exactly, there's already precedent for undocumented changes of such caliber.

Yeah but EB was actually meta

 

[Desiderius]

Again, it's a huge change, so if it's intended, why wouldn't it be documented? Especially when they did document MUCH smaller nat attack changes

The change is definitely ALOT closer to RAW (where you can only stack bites and gores if you have multiple appendages for these attacks), though, so that's a point towards it being intended, but man that's a weird change to make undocumented after your engine has been released for umpteen year.

Probably in preparation for Shifter DLC. If they fix all the stuff that doesn't work on player Natural Attax (but does on pets!) then it should turn out ok.

People get too excited about tertiary attacks that don't show up in the combat log much unless you're soloing anyway. Just encourages a narrow playstyle that often isn't anywhere near the best you can do.

 

[Grunker]

Sooooooo… Any suggestions for a build for my MC?

Kind of limited buildspace obviously; it needs to work with my current gear and synergize with Demon. And work on Unfair, obviously…

I wouldn’t mind toyboxing in a required weapon that I’ve went past already, tho.

 

[mediocrepoet]

Sooooooo… Any suggestions for a build for my MC?

Kind of limited buildspace obviously; it needs to work with my current gear and synergize with Demon. And work on Unfair, obviously…

I wouldn’t mind toyboxing in a required weapon that I’ve went past already, tho.

Kineticist? Totally different playstyle though, but it is demon compatible and doable on unfair. Otherwise, maybe some sort of monk if you wanted to keep the unarmed theme and synergy.

Alternatively, roll back your patch for the current game and then update when you're done. There's the beta path that works on an old patch.

 

[Grunker]

Completely forgot about the option to roll back. That seems like the obvious answer. No need to fear it’ll break something?

 

[mediocrepoet]

Completely forgot about the option to roll back. That seems like the obvious answer. No need to fear it’ll break something?

I defer to someone better versed in the patch nuances for that. Imo back up your saves somewhere first and try it. See if your guy explodes or something.

 

[Grunker]

Dammit, rollback is definetely not going to work. Latest version available is 1.4.4g, i.e. pre-EE...

 

[Yosharian]

Sooooooo… Any suggestions for a build for my MC?

Kind of limited buildspace obviously; it needs to work with my current gear and synergize with Demon. And work on Unfair, obviously…

I wouldn’t mind toyboxing in a required weapon that I’ve went past already, tho.

You're in Act 3 right? Do you have the Death's Consonant bardiche? You could make a pretty good build out of that IMO

 

[Grunker]

Sooooooo… Any suggestions for a build for my MC?

Kind of limited buildspace obviously; it needs to work with my current gear and synergize with Demon. And work on Unfair, obviously…

I wouldn’t mind toyboxing in a required weapon that I’ve went past already, tho.

You're in Act 3 right? Do you have the Death's Consonant bardiche? You could make a pretty good build out of that IMO

About one-third into Act 4.

I'm considering some basic bitch Warpriest Vital Strike build, since it kindda does something with Demonic Charge, and it seems kind of difficult to find Demon synergies that aren't nat-weapons (or, well, spellcasting).

 

[Yosharian]

Just stack the shit out of INT and abuse Lethal Focus. You don't even need to use that bardiche really. SS 13/MW 7 will absolutely destroy.

There's also a Sohei/2HF build you can use which is simple but destroys.

Forget about charging.

 

[Grunker]

Just stack the shit out of INT and abuse Lethal Focus. You don't even need to use that bardiche really. SS 13/MW 7 will absolutely destroy.

Sounds boring

 

[Haplo]

Sooooooo… Any suggestions for a build for my MC?

Kind of limited buildspace obviously; it needs to work with my current gear and synergize with Demon. And work on Unfair, obviously…

I wouldn’t mind toyboxing in a required weapon that I’ve went past already, tho.

You're in Act 3 right? Do you have the Death's Consonant bardiche? You could make a pretty good build out of that IMO

About one-third into Act 4.

I'm considering some basic bitch Warpriest Vital Strike build, since it kindda does something with Demonic Charge, and it seems kind of difficult to find Demon synergies that aren't nat-weapons (or, well, spellcasting).

Yeah, Vital Strike seems like the obvious choice for martial demon.
With Cleaving Finish, of course. Greater if you can afford.

That or charging with Powerful Charge, pounce, Mythic Charge and Boots of Stampede.

 

[Desiderius]

Sooooooo… Any suggestions for a build for my MC?

Kind of limited buildspace obviously; it needs to work with my current gear and synergize with Demon. And work on Unfair, obviously…

I wouldn’t mind toyboxing in a required weapon that I’ve went past already, tho.

You're in Act 3 right? Do you have the Death's Consonant bardiche? You could make a pretty good build out of that IMO

About one-third into Act 4.

I'm considering some basic bitch Warpriest Vital Strike build, since it kindda does something with Demonic Charge, and it seems kind of difficult to find Demon synergies that aren't nat-weapons (or, well, spellcasting).

Yeah, Vital Strike seems like the obvious choice for martial demon.
With Cleaving Finish, of course. Greater if you can afford.

That or charging with Powerful Charge, pounce, Mythic Charge or boots of Stampede.

Unique feature of Demon is Move Action Leap. So you’re looking for good Standard/Swift Actions and Auras to pair with that.

Whether that’s single target or AoE depends what rest of team is doing. Usually companions can handle non-bosses if you want.

I like Dragonheir Scion for Standard Dazzling paired with Signature Skill mod or Thug splash to add Fear skill check (no save). Build around big AoOs on fleeing mobs. Arcane Strike adds a damage packet in Vanilla.

Can pick up Vital Strikes for Alphas on bosses.