Pathfinder Pathfinder: Wrath of the Righteous - Game of the Year Edition

[Average Manatee]

You badly need Seize the Moment with a build like that. Every other party member could be throwing AoOs when you walk past someone and crit them. Even Lann if he's got snap shot feats.

Yeah, you're probably right about him having fly speed.

Yeah, or just Outflank with reach, Lunge melees staying near.

Forgot to respond to this earlier.

My understanding is that you want seize the moment, because it works when you THREATEN enemies, while outflank only works when you FLANK them. The difference being that you can only flank the enemy that your character is attacking, while you threaten everything around you. So if you're all wailing on one guy then Outflank is effectively the same as Seize the Moment. But if you're distributing a bunch of crits across multiple enemies then Outflank means that most of them won't draw AoOs, because while those enemies are being threatened by your other characters they aren't being flanked by them. Seize the moment lets all your allies get a hit in, which then can crit and draw more AoOs. It can be a startling difference, basically causing instant room clears with reach lunge enlarge person builds.

Of course whether its still worth a feat is up for debate. Most of the time if its a difficult fight its not really the massive mobs of enemies that you should be worrying about and you are all concentrating on one target.

 

[Desiderius]

Seize of course also important with Snap Shot since ranged can't flank at all, though I think Haplo has said this is bugged (the Flanking bonus does not show up in the Combat Log however).

 

[Mr. Magniloquent]

My two mage generals are leveled up enough to where the crusade is little more than a speed bump. The Midnight Isles DLC content is now available to me in the campaign. Way more difficult than in the pure DLC. The encounters are much less random, particularly with how they put quite lethal archers far away across balconies or pits. I was relieved when I finally made it to a rest shrine. It's a total slog though, and I'm just trying to get through it. I'm only about 1/3 the way but am already getting weary. I'm hoping I can pick up a level by the time I get the end of the first circuit. That will finally give me Surprise Spells, which will be oh-so-welcome. Also, with the horde of loot I am amasing, I can tell it's going to wreck the economy, not that I lack for gold in any way.

 

[scytheavatar]

You badly need Seize the Moment with a build like that. Every other party member could be throwing AoOs when you walk past someone and crit them. Even Lann if he's got snap shot feats.

Yeah, you're probably right about him having fly speed.

Yeah, or just Outflank with reach, Lunge melees staying near.

Forgot to respond to this earlier.

My understanding is that you want seize the moment, because it works when you THREATEN enemies, while outflank only works when you FLANK them. The difference being that you can only flank the enemy that your character is attacking, while you threaten everything around you. So if you're all wailing on one guy then Outflank is effectively the same as Seize the Moment. But if you're distributing a bunch of crits across multiple enemies then Outflank means that most of them won't draw AoOs, because while those enemies are being threatened by your other characters they aren't being flanked by them. Seize the moment lets all your allies get a hit in, which then can crit and draw more AoOs. It can be a startling difference, basically causing instant room clears with reach lunge enlarge person builds.

Of course whether its still worth a feat is up for debate. Most of the time if its a difficult fight its not really the massive mobs of enemies that you should be worrying about and you are all concentrating on one target.

You want Outflank because every melee character needs it anyway. If you are ever not "all wailing on one guy" then quite frankly you are playing this game wrong and need to rethink your strategies. Cause +4 to hit is huge.

I will go as far as to say you might as well not play melee if you are ever not flanking your opponents.

 

[Desiderius]

You're wailing on one guy if you're fighting a boss and have good crowd control. Not all fights are boss fights and it can be fun to play without perfect CC/boring to play with it.

Haplo likes mowing down crowds with Mobility trickses and I can see setting up infinte AoOs everywhere being fun too. Wend can get there on this by herself with Greater Snap Shot, Legendary Proportions, and Fighter's Tactics Seize.

 

[Average Manatee]

You want Outflank because every melee character needs it anyway. If you are ever not "all wailing on one guy" then quite frankly you are playing this game wrong and need to rethink your strategies. Cause +4 to hit is huge.

I will go as far as to say you might as well not play melee if you are ever not flanking your opponents.

Yes you want both of course. My point is that you want Seize the Moment in this specific scenario.

And outflank is only +2 to hit, you get +2 from flanking normally.

 

[Haplo]

You want Outflank because every melee character needs it anyway. If you are ever not "all wailing on one guy" then quite frankly you are playing this game wrong and need to rethink your strategies. Cause +4 to hit is huge.

I will go as far as to say you might as well not play melee if you are ever not flanking your opponents.

Yes you want both of course. My point is that you want Seize the Moment in this specific scenario.

And outflank is only +2 to hit, you get +2 from flanking normally.

No, normally you don't want both. Since they don't "stack".
Outflank works just fine on all enemies you threaten, you don't need to attack the same enemy.

Seize is somewhat useful on ranged parties (but ranged crits still proc Outflank on melees... and as I understand with Snap Shot the other way is possible also), but since you want Outflank anyway, generally useless in melee. So in mixed parties its nice to have Solo/Fighter Tactics on ranged characters (no range/threaten limitation then).

 

[volklore]

You badly need Seize the Moment with a build like that. Every other party member could be throwing AoOs when you walk past someone and crit them. Even Lann if he's got snap shot feats.

Yeah, you're probably right about him having fly speed.

Yeah, or just Outflank with reach, Lunge melees staying near.

Forgot to respond to this earlier.

My understanding is that you want seize the moment, because it works when you THREATEN enemies, while outflank only works when you FLANK them. The difference being that you can only flank the enemy that your character is attacking, while you threaten everything around you. So if you're all wailing on one guy then Outflank is effectively the same as Seize the Moment. But if you're distributing a bunch of crits across multiple enemies then Outflank means that most of them won't draw AoOs, because while those enemies are being threatened by your other characters they aren't being flanked by them. Seize the moment lets all your allies get a hit in, which then can crit and draw more AoOs. It can be a startling difference, basically causing instant room clears with reach lunge enlarge person builds.

Of course whether its still worth a feat is up for debate. Most of the time if its a difficult fight its not really the massive mobs of enemies that you should be worrying about and you are all concentrating on one target.

I have outflank on all of my melee. Outflank extra AOO do proc on crits from my mobility tricksters as long as the chars are threatening. And back rank assistance crits definitely proc AOOs (inquisitor lann with solo tactics) for my melees too

 

[Haplo]

Is it me or is Zen Archer OP?
Lann is just wreaking shit with his Flurry of Bows. Like, he can nearly two shot anything outside of demons, and that's because I hadn't discovered cold iron arrows yet.
Weird thing though is that he has potion crafting but no spell book to actually make the potions with. What's up with that?

Not really OP, but if you're using the rest of your party sort of as-is then he's probably the strongest damage dealer for a while. I assume Camilla still doesn't have dex to damage and if Seelah is using sword and board she's only alright. Aside from that only Woljif really comes out of the box in chapter 1 as a damage dealing character. Lann also has some busted strong stats that you can't achieve.

Yeah, Zen archer is capable of decent damage. But on higher difficulties I find ranged accuracy lacking (they miss +4 from flanking and have 8 point lower accuracy Vs Prone enemies) and ranged characters generally miss on crazy OP Outflank crit chains.
Zen also has very little going for it in terms of class specific AB boosts.

Where do you see the list of weapon traits, and where does it tell you that enhancements are the same as cold iron? I see nothing about it in the encyclopedia.
Also, does adamantine affect DR/Cold Iron, or does it only affect DR/Adamantine?

Might be a bit of a spoiler but you won't have to worry about cold iron immunity pretty soon.

Well, yeah. But at the same time the opportunity at the very beginning of Act 2 is easily missable and then you struggle with demon DR another full act (and then some).

Maybe if you weren’t Tripping everything you could hit better at range? Not needing Rapid Shot is a hidden +2 AB from the class.

AB can be an issue against bosses but there you can take advantage of ZA’s extra attacks from Flurry and extra rolls from Perfect Strike to crit fish with Bless Weapon against any AC.

Well, sure. Making enemies Prone is maybe not the best solution for ranged parties. But at the same time, its great, free and abundant Crowd Control. I mean you don't need to make a MC tripper to benefit. There's also Grease and many Animal Companions are great at (single target) tripping.

Rapid Shot AB penalty can be eventually removed with a Mythic Feat. Soheis can even stack Flurry, Rapid Shot, Manyshot and Mythic Manyshot. Less damage per shot, but much better Accuracy with Weapon Training.

And well, please don't use Perfect Strike in those discussions. This ability is rather terrible, outside of Vital Strike builds maybe. It affects only the first shot in the full attack (out of 7 or so), so its very sad next to Touch of Luck, Fortune Hex or Brilliant Inspiration.

If you need it to hit a boss, you're in serious trouble. And a single crit won't kill many bosses.

 

[CthuluIsSpy]

Might be a bit of a spoiler but you won't have to worry about cold iron immunity pretty soon.

Yeah, I freed the Vrock at market square and it had DR/Good. I had to lower its health with boneshakers, arrows of law and used the paladin's Challenge Evil and Smite to distract it.
My MC managed to killed it with a lucky hit after about 10 8 turns of throwing everything I had at it.
Good thing it's not great in melee, even though it has like 5 attacks that kept missing.

Turn based feels a lot better than RTwP in this game. RTwP is a lot harder and ultimately turns into a clusterfuck.

Makes the tavern mission a slog though.

Was actually referring to the fact that you'll get an item that grants an AoE cold iron-ignoring aura as soon as you reach chapter 2. It should be hard to miss.

Both Cold Iron and Good aura, actually.
But also I think its very easy to miss. And you only get one shot in Act 2 - at the very beginning. Provided that you've found the needed items in Act 1, that is.

Well shit, I think I missed it then.
What items do you need?

 

[Average Manatee]

According to wiki its in one of the buildings in Kenabres' market square. You should have gotten it if you cleaned out the hard fights. Though I'm not sure if its a hidden idem that requires a perception check. From there you can restore it in ch 2 if you have enough magic essence which you'll also get cleaning out ch 1, though you can find more later if you're short.

Protip btw: everyone can have perception. It's the only skill that you benefit having as much as possible everywhere since everyone makes their own checks to spot stuff.

 

[Average Manatee]

No, normally you don't want both. Since they don't "stack".

Again, this specific situation.

Outflank works just fine on all enemies you threaten, you don't need to attack the same enemy.

Fairly sure this is wrong. I tested by turning AI off and having a character just stand still next to an enemy they obviously threatened, outflank did not proc on crits but seize the moment did.

 

[Desiderius]

Skill checks cannot critically fail, so one toon with high enough Perception can find everything. Aru makes a good candidate since her class gets a bonus from class levels. So does Wolj.

As a practical matter it’s usually better to keep it decently high on two or three if you’re not using a scout. If you want to cover your camp slots (and other checks) well several companions can’t really afford the skill pts to rank it up on everybody.

Galfrey’s Relic is in Brimorak bldg in lower SW quadrant of Market Square. You have to rescue Storyteller then have him make it before he leaves at beginning of Act 2 (because you don’t have enough Essences until Gray Garrison is cleared).

 

[CthuluIsSpy]

Oh shit, I think I did find it but I didn't show it to him. Well crap.
Is it that fan looking thing? I remember killing some brimoraks.

 

[Haplo]

Oh shit, I think I did find it but I didn't show it to him. Well crap.
Is it that fan looking thing? I remember killing some brimoraks.

Nah, the Signet wing thingy is still useful, but the relic cannot be used until restored.

 

[LannTheStupid]

Don't you show everything with a goldish background to Storyteller? He usually has something to say about most of the items.

 

[Desiderius]

Is it that fan looking thing?

I call that the seashell. It's really great since its very long lasting and untyped.

Put it on a character with Dazzling Display (or simply Demoralize for bosses) to boost their Persuasion by 5.

The Relic is in the same building. It's ok to do a playthrough without it to give you practice managing DR. Relic is pretty OP but is handy to even out the SR curve until you get more Spell Pen.

 

[Desiderius]

Rapid Shot AB penalty can be eventually removed with a Mythic Feat. Soheis can even stack Flurry, Rapid Shot, Manyshot and Mythic Manyshot. Less damage per shot, but much better Accuracy with Weapon Training.

And well, please don't use Perfect Strike in those discussions. This ability is rather terrible, outside of Vital Strike builds maybe. It affects only the first shot in the full attack (out of 7 or so), so its very sad next to Touch of Luck, Fortune Hex or Brilliant Inspiration.

If you need it to hit a boss, you're in serious trouble. And a single crit won't kill many bosses.

(1) Mythic Feats are the most valuable (and scarcest) resource in the game. Not needing to burn one is a significant advantage. If you forgo Snap Shot line you can skip Rapid altogether.

(2) Lann isn't a Sohei and Sohei is bugged but ranged Sohei needs the help so Owlcat isn't fixing it. Sohei Weapon Training doesn't advance.

(3) Point being is Lann starts with *twice* the attacks of anyone else with no penalty.

(4) On Perfect Strike you're comparing apples to oranges. It's only the first attack on TB. One of the many hidden advantages of RTwP. And it's a Free Action unlike the others, which doesn't require another character to burn their whole turn.

Let's look at the math:

Keen Longbow with Bless Weapon.

Chance of autocrit in one Full Attack using Perfect Strike with four attack (say for Nulk fight) = 1 - .9 ^ 8 = 57%, at seven attacks (if you can get it activated) that goes to 1 - .9 ^ 14 = 87%

(5) Whether you need it to hit a boss depends on where you are in the game. There's no shame in using it until you get the items and abilities to hit them naturally, and it prevents key crit misses as well. Usually.

Here's some illustrations. You can tell by the font that some of these go back to alpha so I hadn't figured out all the ways to max damage, but even then the value compared to other toons was evident.



Attacking Minagho turns out to not be the best idea on this fight, but you can see that Perfect Strike makes Deadly Aim a more viable option and he has plenty of Perfect Strike activations for this whole fight. Also not the first attack.



Playing pretty badly on Core saved by Perfect Strike. Notice the spell interrupted. That's probably my main use for it.



Two more examples of using Perfect Strike to make sure an interrupting shot lands.



Damage is halved because Ghost (and still pretty crappy) but Lann still saves my bacon in a helluva fight.



Seven attack example but first one gets there. Not enough to outright kill but enough to finish off with next attack even without crit.



Perfect Strike not even activated on this one but this amount of damage is relevant with Cleaving Shot even if it doesn't outright kill the boss.



Didn't get it activated in time on this one either but again goes to OP's point that ZA Lann does hit hard.

 

[CthuluIsSpy]

Was playing around with Hellknight Signifier since y'all ignored my above post and looks like it could be a good home for Cruromancer, since Cruro wants to be on front line for Necro touches and cones (which go well with Sickening Infusion**) and Cruro Neg Channels.

Fake Yaniel's +4 Adamantine Full Plate* gives you a lot more AC than even Archmage Armor (while saving the Mythic) at that point in the game and you still get full progression to hit Frightful on time. Cruro gives +4 stats to Animate Dead that can be supplemented with other Summoning items/abilities and Signifier also of course gives you a Hellknight Order. Probably goes well with Lich (which I've never played) but could also work with Aeon into Devil to go with Signifier Lawlful requirement.

Vampire Lord Racial Heritage buffs STR and INT along with Persuasion and Knowledge (World). There's a TTT Background that gives INT to Persuasion as well.

View attachment 36162View attachment 36163

* - Signifier Armor Training removes Speed penalty for Heavy

** - AoE Sicken is a very nice effect (better than Shaken) but not easy to apply (Arbitrament can be one way but requires beating a save and is a lvl 7 spell). Cruro just needs to do damage with something like Banshee Blast to get there.

Don't you lose out on Perfect Infusion?
That does sound pretty fun though.

I might go that for another playthough, but I kind of wanted to go divine caster this time around.

 

[Desiderius]

Was playing around with Hellknight Signifier since y'all ignored my above post and looks like it could be a good home for Cruromancer, since Cruro wants to be on front line for Necro touches and cones (which go well with Sickening Infusion**) and Cruro Neg Channels.

Fake Yaniel's +4 Adamantine Full Plate* gives you a lot more AC than even Archmage Armor (while saving the Mythic) at that point in the game and you still get full progression to hit Frightful on time. Cruro gives +4 stats to Animate Dead that can be supplemented with other Summoning items/abilities and Signifier also of course gives you a Hellknight Order. Probably goes well with Lich (which I've never played) but could also work with Aeon into Devil to go with Signifier Lawlful requirement.

Vampire Lord Racial Heritage buffs STR and INT along with Persuasion and Knowledge (World). There's a TTT Background that gives INT to Persuasion as well.

View attachment 36162View attachment 36163

* - Signifier Armor Training removes Speed penalty for Heavy

** - AoE Sicken is a very nice effect (better than Shaken) but not easy to apply (Arbitrament can be one way but requires beating a save and is a lvl 7 spell). Cruro just needs to do damage with something like Banshee Blast to get there.

Don't you lose out on Perfect Infusion?
That does sound pretty fun though.

I might go that for another playthough, but I kind of wanted to go divine caster this time around.

The damage is pretty incidental in any case. Can refill with Vampiric Touch as needed. If you go Order of the Scourge you can drain an add to top off while triggering a big AoE no save Will debuff.

I guess it could be more difficult to heal conventionally for Dhampir but there are several ways around that.

 

[CthuluIsSpy]

That gargoyle cave can fuck right off.
Oh yeah sure, just spawn 5 gargoyles and a priest right in my back line, and have them spawn behind my party after a fucking cutscene where they then kill my squishies.
What terrible fucking game design.

 

[Average Manatee]

Did they nerf the Defender's Heart siege? Seemed way easier than previous times I've done it, playing on Hard and I feel like I could have destroyed it even on Unfair. Mino having 18 AC is really a joke.

Granted I did ding level 6 before it and had 3 extended castings of Haste on Nenio (and of course selective grease). Though I'm also holding off on leveling my pets past 4 and nothing could even come close to hitting them with mid 30s AC.

Although it also took WAY longer than I thought was normal, so I wonder if there's some kind of level-adjustment where you have to fight more waves the higher level you are. Or is it just that only the arsonists progress the siege while normal enemies spawn as fast as you kill them, so if you wipe them out quickly you get more of the normal dudes?

 

[Desiderius]

of course selective grease

That screws all your ranged allies trying to shoot stuff from the roof-tops.

It's a first level spell. Let it go.

Thing about Defense is it's the one time in the game you're fighting 1 and 2 HD enemies so stuff like Sleep (Wolj sells a cheap wand), Hypnotize, and Scare can go off. Web is probably the best since it's long-lasting and doesn't Prone so you can just pew pew everything stuck in the Webs.

It does feel like it's been nerfed.

 

[Desiderius]

Tried out the Cruromancer and his Turn Undead ability is not a Channel but a 30 ft Fear with a Will Save (that Order of the Scourge can debuff). Got Vampire Lord Heritage and going Hellknight Signifier Lich. Will be awhile until I get to it but should be interesting.

https://poets.org/poem/vampire-0

 

[Average Manatee]

That screws all your ranged allies trying to shoot stuff from the roof-tops.

It's a first level spell. Let it go.

1. Who cares about crappy AIs that barely do anything.
2. An enemy that is on the ground with a -100% chance to hit me is always worth a few ranged characters having a -20% chance to hit them.
3. My characters hitting for close to effective +20 AB and 20 damage per hit 2-3 APR makes it kind of trivial

It does feel like it's been nerfed.

Yeah I remember the Mino being at least marginally powerful and taking a few rounds to go down. And it wasn't just my first game where I was less optimized and had to go defend at level 3 or 4, my 2nd and 3rd tries also seemed significantly harder than this.